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  1. #1

    Thumbs up The 3 things that will make PvE epic again.

    1. Create unique maps that are exclusive to 10man groups; that will make epic hard mode raids again for them; you can't mix them up with tiny and dominated-by-metas 5man or big and hard-to-form 20man because it would contaminate the hard mode race as it was with 25 vs 10.

    2. Drop all notion of vertical progression on hard modes; nobody truly cares if someone geared better but they actually care about who is the better skilled; it's painful to play just to gear and it's not fun for almost anyone on mythic raiding or mythic+ higher tiers.

    3. Stop overusing 5man so much; it has its place because it's small but for the same reason it's the most heavily affected by metas of a handful of specs because it has the least room for more specs; you really have to offer hard modes between 5 and 20.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    1. Create unique maps that are exclusive to 10man groups; that will make epic hard mode raids again for them; you can't mix them up with tiny and dominated-by-metas 5man or big and hard-to-form 20man because it would contaminate the hard mode race as it was with 25 vs 10.

    2. Drop all notion of vertical progression on hard modes; nobody truly cares if someone geared better but they actually care about who is the better skilled; it's painful to play just to gear and it's not fun for almost anyone on mythic raiding or mythic+ higher tiers.

    3. Stop overusing 5man so much; it has its place because it's small but for the same reason it's the most heavily affected by metas of a handful of specs because it has the least room for more specs; you really have to offer hard modes between 5 and 20.
    1. 10 man raiding will never work again in WoW because of the number of specs and classes. It will be even more impacted by the meta than 5 man dungeons. There are 38 specs in this game. There are classes, let alone specs, that struggle to find spots in 20 man raids due to there being far better options.

    2. People absolutely care more about gear than who is the better play outside of guild environments. Not to mention that if you are playing in a mythic raiding guild or push high m+ tiers you are going to be surrounding by players of a roughly similar skill where the gear differences will be a major determining factor in who does more damage.


    3. Dungeons aren't overused.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    1. Create unique maps that are exclusive to 10man groups; that will make epic hard mode raids again for them; you can't mix them up with tiny and dominated-by-metas 5man or big and hard-to-form 20man because it would contaminate the hard mode race as it was with 25 vs 10.

    2. Drop all notion of vertical progression on hard modes; nobody truly cares if someone geared better but they actually care about who is the better skilled; it's painful to play just to gear and it's not fun for almost anyone on mythic raiding or mythic+ higher tiers.

    3. Stop overusing 5man so much; it has its place because it's small but for the same reason it's the most heavily affected by metas of a handful of specs because it has the least room for more specs; you really have to offer hard modes between 5 and 20.
    Just no, bad ideas all around.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    1. Create unique maps that are exclusive to 10man groups; that will make epic hard mode raids again for them; you can't mix them up with tiny and dominated-by-metas 5man or big and hard-to-form 20man because it would contaminate the hard mode race as it was with 25 vs 10.

    2. Drop all notion of vertical progression on hard modes; nobody truly cares if someone geared better but they actually care about who is the better skilled; it's painful to play just to gear and it's not fun for almost anyone on mythic raiding or mythic+ higher tiers.

    3. Stop overusing 5man so much; it has its place because it's small but for the same reason it's the most heavily affected by metas of a handful of specs because it has the least room for more specs; you really have to offer hard modes between 5 and 20.
    1. 10 man is dead. Every new class added solidifies it and you need to realize this point is addressed in 3

    2. I'm convinced you are trolling

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    1. Create unique maps that are exclusive to 10man groups; that will make epic hard mode raids again for them; you can't mix them up with tiny and dominated-by-metas 5man or big and hard-to-form 20man because it would contaminate the hard mode race as it was with 25 vs 10.

    2. Drop all notion of vertical progression on hard modes; nobody truly cares if someone geared better but they actually care about who is the better skilled; it's painful to play just to gear and it's not fun for almost anyone on mythic raiding or mythic+ higher tiers.

    3. Stop overusing 5man so much; it has its place because it's small but for the same reason it's the most heavily affected by metas of a handful of specs because it has the least room for more specs; you really have to offer hard modes between 5 and 20.
    no, they shouldnt waste resources to satisfy your NICHE taste, open group finder and check raids, half of group go in 2/2/6, so 10man content exists already, dont want to do it? fine, but dont expect blizz to do content just for you and handfull of whiners...

    "affected by metas" - so 5man is affected by metas, but 10man wouldnt be? with 38 specs ingame? are you for real?
    also "nobody truly cares if someone geared better but they actually care about who is the better skilled" - how far out of reality can one person be?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqthefat View Post
    It will be even more impacted by the meta than 5 man dungeons. There are 38 specs in this game. There are classes, let alone specs, that struggle to find spots in 20 man raids due to there being far better options.
    that makes no mathematical sense. if 5man has metas of 5 specs: how is 10man worse at that (20man also has metas but it's obviously alleviated as a problem because of the bigger size and hence the bigger chance to get different specs for different utilities you can't fit in a 5man)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    5man is affected by metas, but 10man wouldnt be? with 38 specs ingame? are you for real?
    read the rest of the message before laughing at people: everything has metas but obviously 5man has the most brutal (20man the least) because there's no room for more utilities other than the 5 so it's easy for people to ban all specs other than their top 5 for end-game ranking.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    that makes no mathematical sense. if 5man has metas of 5 specs: how is 10man worse at that (20man also has metas but it's obviously alleviated as a problem because of the bigger size and hence the bigger chance to get different specs for different utilities you can't fit in a 5man)?

    read the rest of the message before laughing at people: everything has metas but obviously 5man has the most brutal (20man the least) because there's no room for more utilities other than the 5 so it's easy for people to ban all specs other than their top 5 for end-game ranking.
    Because you will still only bring 5 meta specs and not 10, making the problem far worse

  8. #8
    Yes lets start fixing what's not broken again. Instanced PvE is probably the only thing that's not fucked in WoW now and is a reason it's still a thing. Last thing I'd need Blizz to put their hands on it and make a pigsty out of it.
    All my ignores are permanently filtered out and invisible to me. Responding to my posts with nonsense or insults is pointless, you're likely already invisible and if not - 3 clicks away. One ignore is much better than 3 pages of trolling.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Because you will still only bring 5 meta specs and not 10, making the problem far worse
    that makes absolutely no logical sense. the game is filled with raid-wide utilities.

    if you bring 5 X 2 specs you ruin your chances because you duplicate bufs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    not broken
    5man is extremely overplayed lately, while it's the most brutal at favoring a couple of spec metas.
    20 man is the other extreme which is hard to find people so the middle ground is missing.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    that makes no mathematical sense. if 5man has metas of 5 specs: how is 10man worse at that (20man also has metas but it's obviously alleviated as a problem because of the bigger size and hence the bigger chance to get different specs for different utilities you can't fit in a 5man)?
    Not only are there not 5 man raids, but one of the reasons why you tried to justify why 10 man needs to be brought back was to not have groups be meta dominated. Which will only make raids be more meta dominated than they have been in a long time.

    10 man would be more impacted by the meta due to it being a raid environment. All levels of raid (Aside from LFR) are impacted by the meta, but M+ only starts to get hit by the meta once you start climbing the keystone difficulty

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Instanced PvE is probably the only thing that's not fucked in WoW
    So everything but instanced PvE is fucked in WoW now? Interesting, interesting.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqthefat View Post
    10 man would be more impacted by the meta due to it being a raid environment. All levels of raid (Aside from LFR) are impacted by the meta, but M+ only starts to get hit by the meta once you start climbing the keystone difficulty
    That makes no sense for 2 reasons. One: if you play easy raids or easy 5man modes: then metas are irrelevant anyway since almost anyone can join.

    Two and most importantly: most bufs and utilities in the game are raid-wide so 10man will handicap itself if it restricts it to 5 specs like 5man.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    1. Create unique maps that are exclusive to 10man groups; that will make epic hard mode raids again for them; you can't mix them up with tiny and dominated-by-metas 5man or big and hard-to-form 20man because it would contaminate the hard mode race as it was with 25 vs 10.

    2. Drop all notion of vertical progression on hard modes; nobody truly cares if someone geared better but they actually care about who is the better skilled; it's painful to play just to gear and it's not fun for almost anyone on mythic raiding or mythic+ higher tiers.

    3. Stop overusing 5man so much; it has its place because it's small but for the same reason it's the most heavily affected by metas of a handful of specs because it has the least room for more specs; you really have to offer hard modes between 5 and 20.
    1. there are too many constraints on 10m design to make it feasible for high difficulty - mostly that you have too much available space (or else would be forced into making tiny boss arenas) so design space on movement/position-based mechanics is constrained. In addition, smaller groups tend to force stricter comps, which is toxic for the community and meta perception. You can make 10m content if it's not hardcore difficulty - which we already have, since nothing stops you from doing normal or heroic raids with 10 people.

    2. People care about rewards being proportional to effort. In addition, gear serves as a natural moderator for difficulty. RWF guilds may be able to clear a raid in 1-2 weeks with low ilvl gear, but most other people can't do that. For them, the vertical power progression is an automatic boost that will help them progress over time as their gear gets better. Experience has shown that without meaningful rewards, participation PLUMMETS - even critically acclaimed systems like Challenge Mode in MoP had abysmal participation numbers... that instantly improved when they added even the most trivial of progression rewards (Valor). That being said, we could use some good HORIZONTAL progression system to run in parallel with the vertical one; not as a replacement or in competition.

    3. 5-man is a meaningful content segment because it's easy to manage and assemble, making it much easier to do ad-hoc content with. And ad-hoc content is the most important type of content in gaming today. 5-man is already moderated by the M+ system in which meta doesn't really matter until 20+ (which barely anyone does). The real problem with "meta discrimination" lies in the fact that there's a gigantic enormous staggering titanic disparity between the number of tanks/healers and dps players. In part because those roles (tanks more than anything) have so many more responsibilities. This is mostly a community problem, but not entirely; Blizzard should work on addressing this somehow, though I couldn't even begin to tell them how to solve it. I'm not sure if anyone can. But the core problem isn't that a meta exists - it's that it's trivially easy to enforce it. Even if the difference was 99 vs. 100, if I get fifty applicants the second I list my group what reason would I have NOT to take the 100 over the 99 if they're so easy to get?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That makes no sense for 2 reasons. One: if you play easy raids or easy 5man modes: then metas are irrelevant anyway since almost anyone can join.

    Two and most importantly: most bufs and utilities in the game are raid-wide so 10man will handicap itself if it restricts it to 5 specs like 5man.
    A 10 man raid would consist of:

    At least 1 demon hunter
    At least 1 Monk
    At least 1 Mage
    At least 1 druid
    At least 1 Warrior
    At least 1 Warlock
    At least 1 Priest
    At least 1 Enhancement shaman
    At least 1 Evoker

    That is 9 slots just off valuable buffs that every raid is going to want otherwise they're handicapping themselves. That leaves one slot open for someone who isn't meta, UNLESS you're class stacking another one of those buffs like PI off priest or stampeding roar/natures vigil off druid. This would be the worst raiding has been in a long time.

    If you look at the top teams of M+ they are all running different comps. This will not happen in raid because of the raid buffs and raid utility that these classes bring, you will be locked into the same comp every time whereas in M+ you can actually have comp variety.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqthefat View Post
    1. 10 man raiding will never work again in WoW because of the number of specs and classes. It will be even more impacted by the meta than 5 man dungeons. There are 38 specs in this game. There are classes, let alone specs, that struggle to find spots in 20 man raids due to there being far better options.

    2. People absolutely care more about gear than who is the better play outside of guild environments. Not to mention that if you are playing in a mythic raiding guild or push high m+ tiers you are going to be surrounding by players of a roughly similar skill where the gear differences will be a major determining factor in who does more damage.


    3. Dungeons aren't overused.
    ff14 works fine with 8 man raids

  16. #16
    Oh, another one of these threads...

    "Do it my way or the game is dead!!!!!!!!!!!!!1"
    How joyous to be in such a place! Where phishing is not only allowed, it is encouraged!

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jkq View Post
    ff14 works fine with 8 man raids
    WoW has double FF14's classes/specs. 8 man raids work great when you have 19 options and not 38. Not even a quarter of WoW's specs would be able to make it into a raid if the cap was 8 people.

  18. #18
    I mean... It's gonna be different, not necessarily better. Every aspect has plus and minuses, but I think 5-man is never not going to be the go to again. Because it's a lot easier to organize, create long term teams, gear up ppl and so on.

  19. #19
    Blademaster
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    Why are people so damn obsessed with 10 man? It wasnt great back then, you can do it now and most people run a 14 man min.

  20. #20
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    You want epic raids, bring back 40 man raids!!!! Now that would be EPIC!!!

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