Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Stacking is only a problem for world first raiders though. It's a minuscule problem.
    That's just not true.

    "Meta discrimination" is a function of how easy it is to enforce. Just look at M+ to see it in action: because any M+ group will instantly have fifty DPS apply, it's trivially easy to only ever pick the best ones. No matter if they're best by 1% or .1%.

    The same would happen in 10-man - the higher tank demands would mean that the number of DPS applying to a group increased in direct proportion, which means you are more easily able to only take the best DPS from the meta. Which means everyone else gets left in the dust.

    This is NOT a "RWF-only problem" by any stretch.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Stacking is only a problem for world first raiders though. It's a minuscule problem.
    I started this thread almost exclusively for hard modes so it would be off topic to go there.

    Also not only the top 10 guilds care about being optimal.

    Some are optimal at lower ranks just as a hobby.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's just not true.

    "Meta discrimination" is a function of how easy it is to enforce. Just look at M+ to see it in action: because any M+ group will instantly have fifty DPS apply, it's trivially easy to only ever pick the best ones. No matter if they're best by 1% or .1%.

    The same would happen in 10-man - the higher tank demands would mean that the number of DPS applying to a group increased in direct proportion, which means you are more easily able to only take the best DPS from the meta. Which means everyone else gets left in the dust.

    This is NOT a "RWF-only problem" by any stretch.
    When people use that nonsense ("only in world first it matters!"), I like to go to the other extreme entirely and show them that even the most casual guild in the world may be affected a lot.
    For example: the most casual guild in the world may pretend they don't care but they do celebrate if they raise in realm rank or they do care if they wipe a lot because of a slacker.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's just not true.

    "Meta discrimination" is a function of how easy it is to enforce. Just look at M+ to see it in action: because any M+ group will instantly have fifty DPS apply, it's trivially easy to only ever pick the best ones. No matter if they're best by 1% or .1%.

    The same would happen in 10-man - the higher tank demands would mean that the number of DPS applying to a group increased in direct proportion, which means you are more easily able to only take the best DPS from the meta. Which means everyone else gets left in the dust.

    This is NOT a "RWF-only problem" by any stretch.
    Again, that is an elitism issue.
    As long as the content is designed to be cleared by any comp there are no problems. If you wish to stack classes cause of 1% more damage, you are free to do so.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Again, that is an elitism issue.
    As long as the content is designed to be cleared by any comp there are no problems. If you wish to stack classes cause of 1% more damage, you are free to do so.
    You're misunderstanding. It's not about "wishing to stack classes", it's about it being TRIVIALLY EASY TO DO SO.

    You think people are taking only meta classes to M+ because they think they need the +1%? No. They're doing it because there is basically zero cost to NOT doing it.

    If someone comes to you and goes "would you rather have $100 or $99?" you'd be an idiot not to take the $100. Even if it's just 1% more.

    That's my point - people are doing it because they very easily can, and they might as well. And this only gets easier as you tighten group size.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    elitism
    Apart from the fact you are practically off topic because the thread is revolving around hard modes, it's not even correct as an argument for the wider game either.

    Some people enjoy optimizing without being "elitists"; even casual guilds hate wiping; if they say they don't they're lying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    You're misunderstanding. It's not about "wishing to stack classes", it's about it being TRIVIALLY EASY TO DO SO.

    You think people are taking only meta classes to M+ because they think they need the +1%? No. They're doing it because there is basically zero cost to NOT doing it.

    If someone comes to you and goes "would you rather have $100 or $99?" you'd be an idiot not to take the $100. Even if it's just 1% more.

    That's my point - people are doing it because they very easily can, and they might as well. And this only gets easier as you tighten group size.
    According to some people there are only "elitist jerks" and "casual fun people" in this game.

    There are no "casual fun people" when they keep wiping and figure out bufs were missing.

    They will either optimize against those problems or just quit the game entirely.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Apart from the fact you are practically off topic because the thread is revolving around hard modes, it's not even correct as an argument for the wider game either.

    Some people enjoy optimizing without being "elitists"; even casual guilds hate wiping; if they say they don't they're lying.

    - - - Updated - - -


    According to some people there are only "elitist jerks" and "casual fun people" in this game.

    There are no "casual fun people" when they keep wiping and figure out bufs were missing.

    They will either optimize against those problems or just quit the game entirely.
    Kudos for the way you are describing that group of people
    not everyone who minmax is elitist jerk, mmo need to understand this

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Lordofbelbol View Post
    Kudos for the way you are describing that group of people
    not everyone who minmax is elitist jerk, mmo need to understand this
    I mean I was almost never in a super hard core guild (only for a week or a month back in wotlk), but I always wanted to be optimal because I found it fun.

    I think most casual raiding guilds have such people; those 3-4 people that always do better; they don't care to "hard core" but they optimize.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Some people enjoy optimizing without being "elitists"; even casual guilds hate wiping; if they say they don't they're lying.
    That's just admitting that you'd rather leave $1 on the table, which is perfectly fine, but most people would take the $100.

    It is not required to stack any of the classes to complete any of the content. It is not required to have the optimal comp to complete at +20. However given equal skill and ilvl, it would be much easier to clear raids and keys with the optimal comp.

    Some people would rather have it easier than others I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    Some people would rather have it easier than others I guess.
    For me that argument is in reverse. The easy way out for me is to not care and just play whatever randomly seemed good to me based only on aesthetics or lore and other such extremely subjective things.

    It's not easy to constantly research and constantly simulate and constantly think deeply about those things just because the end result has better bufs and utilities.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    For me that argument is in reverse. The easy way out for me is to not care and just play whatever randomly seemed good to me based only on aesthetics or lore and other such extremely subjective things.

    It's not easy to constantly research and constantly simulate and constantly think deeply about those things just because the end result has better bufs and utilities.
    Which means we circle back to my original point which was more or less : the meta only matters in bleeding edge content. You are free to play the spec of your choice, other players are free to invite who they want to their group.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    the meta only matters in bleeding edge content
    a meme that never made sense. even the most casual guild in the world cares to not wipe; I don't care if they claim they don't; they celebrate whenever they raise in realm rank.

    also not everyone is an extremist elitist jerk when they want to be optimal in gaming.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    also not everyone is an extremist elitist jerk when they want to be optimal in gaming.
    It's not a meme.

    Either you care about being optimal or you don't. There is no in between. Playing a sub-optimal spec optimally is still being sub-optimal.

    There is nothing wrong with choosing to play a non meta spec, ultimately you pay for your sub, play what you want no one cares.

    Like I said, I don't play "meta specs", I play what I like, and if it happens to be meta, so be it.

    The most casuals guilds aren't wiping because of what the players play, they are wiping because their players aren't great. The raid roster could be all meta specs they'd still wipe the same amount.
    Last edited by Azharok; Yesterday at 02:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    1. Create unique maps that are exclusive to 10man groups; that will make epic hard mode raids again for them; you can't mix them up with tiny and dominated-by-metas 5man or big and hard-to-form 20man because it would contaminate the hard mode race as it was with 25 vs 10.

    2. Drop all notion of vertical progression on hard modes; nobody truly cares if someone geared better but they actually care about who is the better skilled; it's painful to play just to gear and it's not fun for almost anyone on mythic raiding or mythic+ higher tiers.

    3. Stop overusing 5man so much; it has its place because it's small but for the same reason it's the most heavily affected by metas of a handful of specs because it has the least room for more specs; you really have to offer hard modes between 5 and 20.
    That is a troll or?
    1.) Larger group sizes are ALWAYS better. 10man mythic would be unbalanced as shit, and you couldn't even design cool stuff for specific class utility, cause not everyone has every class.
    2.) Yeah, making WoW horizontal progression is certainly a good idea. It's just coincidence, that so many people are doing keys beyond 15s compared to SL season 1.
    3.) You have a non 5-man hardmode. It is mythic. Do you really think having multiple hardmodes of different group sizes is a good idea? It would be awful for a 24-26 man roster to have sprinkled in 10/15 man challenges. Having it flex for casual content and 20man for competitive content is perfectly fine.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    Larger group sizes are ALWAYS better.
    then why do you support tiny 5man being overused so much. the game has an extreme variety of raid-wide bufs and raid-wide utilities so it creates extreme metas of a few specs if 5man is taken seriously for hard modes.
    10man wouldn't eliminate the problem but it's a middle ground between the extremity of 5 and the big alleviation of 20; now people are forced only in the 2 extremes for hard mode; 20man guilds won't have an issue.
    "If you have questions or suggestions about moderation, you go to a global (blue) moderator with them and discuss the matter in PMs. These kinds of discussions NEVER work out in public." xskarma, global moderator off mmo-champion, defender of democracy

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •