The 3 things that will make PvE epic again.

[Stormwolf64]

Because you're holding back on free damage, extra hp buffs.

"A 10 man raid would consist of:

At least 1 demon hunter : to buff ranged
At least 1 Monk : to buff melee
At least 1 Mage : intel for days
At least 1 druid : free vers + CR
At least 1 Warrior : free ap
At least 1 Warlock : extra "oh shit button" and CR
At least 1 Priest : PI for days, extra stam
At least 1 Enhancement shaman : to buff melee some more
At least 1 Evoker" : cool utility strong heals, decent prio burst.

It's not that you NEED any of those specific classes to kill bosses. But you'd be gimping yourself from a progress POV if you didn't bring at least one of each of those.

You are handicapping yourself, it's not "just an idea".

Same for 5 man, if you don't bring a lust class, you are gimping yourself, would you run keys without one ? Doing a 10 ? sure who cares, pushing 20s without a lust ... why bother ?

I was always against pruning, but this time the community has done the damage itself. These buffs needs to vanish.

[Lolites]

ff14 works fine with 8 man raids

something working in completely different games does in no way guarantee it would work in wow...
also, i cant speak from experience, but doesnt FF have less classes and something like multiclass? i believe i read something about that being a thing, but im not sure

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Why are people so damn obsessed with 10 man? It wasnt great back then, you can do it now and most people run a 14 man min.

yeah, this always makes me laugh, when people claim how many people would run 10man but you can literaly do it now and most people dont do it

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Most people run 14 man because of the way it scales.

if people go 10man only if its easiest path then they dont really want 10man raiding, they want easy path to what they cant reach currently...

[fazaim]

that makes absolutely no logical sense. the game is filled with raid-wide utilities.

if you bring 5 X 2 specs you ruin your chances because you duplicate bufs.

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5man is extremely overplayed lately, while it's the most brutal at favoring a couple of spec metas.
20 man is the other extreme which is hard to find people so the middle ground is missing.

If people play the shit out of 5 man for enjoyment, how can you call it overplayed?

[Azharok]

I was always against pruning, but this time the community has done the damage itself. These buffs needs to vanish.

I very personnaly do not care what specs I'd bring inside a raid, I'm still very much in favour of "play what you find fun".

That's doens't make the reasoning untrue or invalid.

You are effectively gimping yourself by not taking the afformentionned buffs in a raid.

[Stormwolf64]

I very personnaly do not care what specs I'd bring inside a raid, I'm still very much in favour of "play what you find fun".

That's doens't make the reasoning untrue or invalid.

You are effectively gimping yourself by not taking the afformentionned buffs in a raid.

To be fair blizzard needs to remove more. The mythic score, buffs. Rather buff classes a bit if blizzard has balanced everyone around having these buffs.

[Shaqthefat]

Where do people get this idea that if you don't have EVERY SINGLE BUFF, that if you are missing just one buff, you are "handicapped"

retail players are weird man

This discussion is about bringing the optimal meta comp. If people aren't doing that then this discussion is irrelevant and doesn't apply to the situation.

Lets also not pretend like classic players haven't spent the entire day before a raid getting every single world buff. Making it a classic vs retail thing makes no sense.

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That strengthens my argument (because it now wants 9 specs instead of 5 in 5man). I'm not saying 10man won't have metas; I was saying from the start 5man is the worst at meta'ing because the best teams will only look for 5 specs (not even classes by the way (for all sizes)); 20man is the least impacted by that because most people can get the 5-6 most important utilities and then get almost randoms.

10man would be a middle ground (between hard-to-find -people-for but best-at-avoiding-metas(not entirely) 20man and small 5man); for high difficulties the metas will be there but not as ludicrously restricted as 5man's; and for more middle-ground difficulties it would be extremely better than 5man because only 5 or max 6 classes will be "must haves".

This doesn't strength your argument because you are just going to be creating a raid group that is heavily meta dominated. Raids and dungeons aren't the same and there are people who strictly stick to one or the other. You will make raid groups and raid environments work to fix an imaginary problem you have with dungeons, something that is completely separate from raiding.

If you look at the top m+ teams they are all running different comps. You will not get that in 10 mans because people will be bringing the mandatory raid buffs if they're remotely serious about having a meta comp. With dungeons you will actually get variations, in a 10 man the you have an exceptional small amount of variation.

Once again there would also be way more than 5 or 6 must have classes. At minimum you are like at 9 and that isn't assuming you wouldn't be stacking the 10th slot with a second one of those 9.

[epigramx]

this idea that if you don't have EVERY SINGLE BUFF, that if you are missing just one buff, you are "handicapped"

yes if you play hard mode difficulties. and don't say "I don't care about hard mode difficulties", because you'd be off topic (the thread is about hard modes on 10man).

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people play the shit out of 5 man for enjoyment

wat. they have spammed the game with rewards by overplaying the 5mans (vaults and tier gear and trinkets at least).

20% of current 5man players would remain in there if you told them "no loot from that".

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Raids and dungeons aren't the same

That's practically a religious statement and it makes everything you say based on it baseless; and no: "it's just called 5man and it has different maps" is not an argument either; I keep seeing people in this thread - you included - that keep repeating non-arguments in the hope they will sound as arguments ("it's different" is not an argument for example because you never said what you mean is different).

Since so many people have serious difficulties with the basic mathematics of this let's make an analogy in the form of a question.

If you had 1 spec to choose for a 1-man PvE gametype: would the metas be worse or better than a 2-man?

[anon5123]

you'd be gimping yourself if you didn't bring at least one of each of those

missing 1 buff is not "gimping yourself"
going from 100% to 95% is not a gimp
lmao

[Mysterymask]

Where do people get this idea that if you don't have EVERY SINGLE BUFF, that if you are missing just one buff, you are "handicapped"

retail players are weird man

*coughs in Vanilla world buff meta*

[Zyky]

1. 10 man raiding will never work again in WoW because of the number of specs and classes. It will be even more impacted by the meta than 5 man dungeons. There are 38 specs in this game. There are classes, let alone specs, that struggle to find spots in 20 man raids due to there being far better options.

That's literally on Blizzard, if they listened to feedback and tuned appropriately it wouldn't be an issue. The fact that they waited until after raid logs started coming out AND had to do HUGE buffs for several specs proves that the developers are incompetent and that has nothing to do with there being 38 specs, that has to do with them being idiots.

[Biomega]

I was always against pruning, but this time the community has done the damage itself. These buffs needs to vanish.

The buffs are a response to people's complaints about class stacking. Without them, the top end would probably have very extreme setups - not sure raids with 6 Moonkins and 6 Arcane Mages is something that's preferable over class buffs enforcing variety.

Sure in an ideal world everything would just be balanced so we can take whoever. But that's not realistic for several reasons.

1. Blizzard's goal isn't to balance around raid performance. They want everyone to work in raids, dungeons, and PvP, and their concern is the average experience of Johnny Random and his average siblings. They want them to jump content at will with little to no changing their setup - which means balance will be skewed if you look at it in isolation based on content and bracket.

2. People would probably stack classes even on very small differences. Why take the spec doing 95% if you can take more of the spec doing 100%? Not like DPS players are hard to find. Would it make the difference between win or lose? Unlikely. But if you have the choice, why NOT do it?

3. Blizzard would rather have people be in the raid purely because they're <spec X with buff B> than have them be passed over because they're not <meta spec Y>. From the perspective of the average player being taken to a raid just because you fill a buff stings a lot less than not getting to raid because your favorite spec doesn't happen to be meta.

4. Having a wide spread of classes and a fairly stable core makes it easier to design fights, as you can reasonably plan on certain things being present in most raids. That means less of a hassle when considering which classes best deal with what kind of mechanic. Similarly, less chances of extreme stacking also frees up some design space for similar reasons.

5. It's much easier to balance roughly around the same ballpark and trust buffs to sort out class stacking, than try and get balance so right that people naturally avoid class stacking. Both in terms of design/tuning resources and public perception, it's much less of a headache if diversity is enforced and doesn't need to be relied on to happen organically.

I could go on, but those probably cover the big ones.

[anon5123]

*coughs in Vanilla world buff meta*

Getting world buffs =/= believing that you are "gimped" and "handicapped" if you are missing a single buff.

Shoo, retailer.

[fazaim]

yes if you play hard mode difficulties. and don't say "I don't care about hard mode difficulties", because you'd be off topic (the thread is about hard modes on 10man).

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wat. they have spammed the game with rewards by overplaying the 5mans (vaults and tier gear and trinkets at least).

20% of current 5man players would remain in there if you told them "no loot from that".

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That's practically a religious statement and it makes everything you say based on it baseless; and no: "it's just called 5man and it has different maps" is not an argument either; I keep seeing people in this thread - you included - that keep repeating non-arguments in the hope they will sound as arguments ("it's different" is not an argument for example because you never said what you mean is different).

Since so many people have serious difficulties with the basic mathematics of this let's make an analogy in the form of a question.

If you had 1 spec to choose for a 1-man PvE gametype: would the metas be worse or better than a 2-man?

But you know most find it fun to chase gear and min-max and perfect their character?

[Shaqthefat]

That's practically a religious statement and it makes everything you say based on it baseless; and no: "it's just called 5man and it has different maps" is not an argument either; I keep seeing people in this thread - you included - that keep repeating non-arguments in the hope they will sound as arguments ("it's different" is not an argument for example because you never said what you mean is different).

Since so many people have serious difficulties with the basic mathematics of this let's make an analogy in the form of a question.

If you had 1 spec to choose for a 1-man PvE gametype: would the metas be worse or better than a 2-man?

You're comparing the two and trying to use raids to fix an imaginary issue in dungeons. They're not the same. Just because they're group PvE content doesn't make them the same thing.

There are a lot of people who only raid and a lot of people who only do M+. Yes there are people who do both, but the two forms of content are not interchangeable just because they're group instanced PvE content.

[Mysterymask]

Getting world buffs =/= believing that you are "gimped" and "handicapped" if you are missing a single buff.

Shoo, retailer.

IE the temper tantrums yall had when someone dispelled them?
or the streamer who got someone banned for dispelling them?

[Azharok]

missing 1 buff is not "gimping yourself"
going from 100% to 95% is not a gimp
lmao

If you do X% less damage without the buff than with it, you are "gimping yourself".

The amount of % difference is irrelevant, this is not up for debate.

[epigramx]

Let's make a clear example for everyone because it seems it's hard to understand this simple concept. Let's say we compare a 1-man PvE fight like the ones you just had with the timewalking in Legion last year and a 2-man PvE.

Why on earth would 1-man not have more brutal impact from meta'ing?

[Azharok]

Let's make a clear example for everyone because it seems it's hard to understand this simple concept. Let's say we compare a 1-man PvE fight like the ones you just had with the timewalking in Legion last year and a 2-man PvE.

Why on earth would 1-man not have more brutal impact from meta'ing?

Because you can't balance 1 man PVE fights around 38 specs ... It's pretty obvious. That's why there's different challenges to fit different roles. Some specs had it easier than others. But they were designed to be completed by anyone. We've had the same issue with visions during BFA. It was easier to do on certains specs ( Vengeance comes to mind ) than others, but ultimately any spec could complete them.

On competetive 5 man, you want at least one lust (Mage / Shaman / Evoker / Hunter )and ideally a CR class (DK / Druid / Paladin) So of the 38 specs you have 20 specs that are "must haves" for 5 man, then you just fill up with synergies with the specs you're playing with.

10 man, you'll just want more "obligatory" buffs. If anything 20man gives more flexibility once you covered your bases.

2 man content you'd want either a self sustaining tank and a dps, or a healer and a dps.

There seems to be a confusion between what is the best and what is viable. If you're looking for tip of spear DPS to complete bleeding edge difficulty, you just can't bring your friend who's an arms warrior. That doesn't mean that an arms warrior can't complete the content, but he will certainly have a harder time performing at the level of say a rogue in terms of DPS.

[Mysterymask]

something working in completely different games does in no way guarantee it would work in wow...
also, i cant speak from experience, but doesnt FF have less classes and something like multiclass? i believe i read something about that being a thing, but im not sure

FF14 Jobs work like this as much as PEOPLE LOVE to bring it up classes in wow and jobs in ff14 is night and day

1. Jobs have 1 spec.. that's it a Paladin is always a tank, a white mage is always a healer and a Reaper only has one way to DPS
2. As such 2 players with the same job and equal gear are essentially the same barring skill, latency, etc
3. As for Multiclass think of it more like you have all your alts on one character, If your a max level Paladin than you change to a Monk the Monk is level 1 but then you change to a Red Mage you leveled a bit and he's level 52 etc etc. Unless you took the time to level every job on one character it isn't really like "Multiclass" and more logging into your tank alt without having to log out
4. This is not even talking about the HUGE culture and difficulty differences between the 2 games which there is already a million threads about.

[Lolites]

20% of current 5man players would remain in there if you told them "no loot from that".

same goes for raids or any other content...
wow is and always was reward (mostly gear) driven, to pretend otherwise is beyond stupid...