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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    a meme that never made sense. even the most casual guild in the world cares to not wipe; I don't care if they claim they don't; they celebrate whenever they raise in realm rank.

    also not everyone is an extremist elitist jerk when they want to be optimal in gaming.
    It’s not wrong though, I mained ret for SL and made HOF. Meta only matters when racing for the world first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    that's a biased argument. you ignored all the advantages of 20man which is better balance and more epic feeling and more organizational complexity when that's desired.
    10man would have part of those 20man advantages in a better portion than 5 because 5 is the most damaged by its small size in terms of those.

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    Same with the above reply, you completely ignored all the advantages of 20man when you think of those things because you wanted to construct an argument that pretends "10man is only bad".

    Don't you see that part of the advantages of 20man over 5man are also carried over to 10man to a certain extend so it's a middle ground of advantages/disadvantages of 20man and of 5man?
    Just about 20 man’s being more “epic”, I would disagree. I got really big into raiding with Cata, at a 10 man level and I look back on it very roundly until WoD when 10 man disappeared.

    I suppose it is what you find epic, for me what’s an epic time is having fun playing with 9 people you really like. Now, it’s 9 people you really like and another 10 randos. Not very epic imo.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    about 20 man’s being more “epic”, I would disagree. I got really big into raiding with Cata, at a 10 man level and I look back on it very roundly until WoD when 10 man disappeared.

    I suppose it is what you find epic, for me what’s an epic time is having fun playing with 9 people you really like. Now, it’s 9 people you really like and another 10 randos. Not very epic imo.
    yeah, but that was because you happened to have specifically more fun with those specific 9 people; I've known that feeling; but it can happen in 20man too under certain conditions (and to some extend even in 5).

    but the game now bans most opportunities for 10man epicness; it's restricted to extremely easy modes; the strongest bonds between people are forged on hard modes after wiping dozens of times.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    yeah, but that was because you happened to have specifically more fun with those specific 9 people; I've known that feeling; but it can happen in 20man too under certain conditions (and to some extend even in 5).

    but the game now bans most opportunities for 10man epicness; it's restricted to extremely easy modes; the strongest bonds between people are forged on hard modes after wiping dozens of times.
    more opinions and still no argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    more opinions and still no argument.
    you make no sense to keep complaining you didn't get an answer. you were already told you are biased. you pretended 10man is useless because it doesn't have certain advantages of 5man while you pretended at the same time that 10man doesn't have part of the advantages of 20man.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    you make no sense to keep complaining you didn't get an answer. you were already told you are biased. you pretended 10man is useless because it doesn't have certain advantages of 5man while you pretended at the same time that 10man doesn't have part of the advantages of 20man.
    Yes I'm biased, I prefer 10 man raiding to the 20man format, I also prefer 5 man groups to raiding. Everyone is biased, it's still not an argument.

    I have NEVER said 10 man was useless, do not put words in my mouth.

    I'm not complaining, about anything, merely stating that "no u" is not an argument.

    I'd also argue 10man HC isn't "extremely easy mode".
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  6. #106
    IMO merging LFR and normal mode would be good. The way things are and doing both normals and LFR there really isn't much difference and Razeghast is a perfect example.

    Same thing with making Mythic 0s in LFD and if the group is good and people want to stick together, give a prompt at the end of the dungeon to keep group together to do a higher level key that the group might want to do.

    Solo queue RBGs would be the next step for PvP as well. Despite all the bitching and some certain clear drawbacks of solo shuffle, it clearly demonstrates demand for queueable pvp content too.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-6700 @2.8GHz | Nvidia GTX 960M | 16GB DDR4-2400MHz | 1 TB Toshiba SSD| Dell XPS 15

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    1. Create unique maps that are exclusive to 10man groups; that will make epic hard mode raids again for them; you can't mix them up with tiny and dominated-by-metas 5man or big and hard-to-form 20man because it would contaminate the hard mode race as it was with 25 vs 10.

    2. Drop all notion of vertical progression on hard modes; nobody truly cares if someone geared better but they actually care about who is the better skilled; it's painful to play just to gear and it's not fun for almost anyone on mythic raiding or mythic+ higher tiers.

    3. Stop overusing 5man so much; it has its place because it's small but for the same reason it's the most heavily affected by metas of a handful of specs because it has the least room for more specs; you really have to offer hard modes between 5 and 20.
    If you care about skill you should just pvp since gear is a lot more normalised. I hate to break it to raiders but if it wasn't for loot almost no one would raid and blizzard know this which is why they generally gatekeep good gear behind raids.

  8. #108
    Horrible take all around. No thanks

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    yeah, but that was because you happened to have specifically more fun with those specific 9 people; I've known that feeling; but it can happen in 20man too under certain conditions (and to some extend even in 5).

    but the game now bans most opportunities for 10man epicness; it's restricted to extremely easy modes; the strongest bonds between people are forged on hard modes after wiping dozens of times.
    Yea, I have had a few too in 20 man’s, but mostly it’s been like half the raid having fun and the other half being silent. I also enjoyed that as 10 mans, it was easier to find a guild as a tank for raids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    more opinions and still no argument.
    Well yea, cause I engaged in an opinion piece with Epigramx…..

  10. #110
    If majority of people play m+ instead of raids, then that's what Blizzard should focus on.

    They need to do what's best for the game. Raids are not going anywhere, but it's clear how m+ is just more modern amd fits much better for many players.

    The only thing i'll never understand is why they put "mandatory" stuff scattered between raid and m+ so people feel forced to do stuff they don't particularly like to get a specific item or so. A completely separate progression, much like happens woth pvp, would just be better and solve any issue because every system could stand up by itself.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    If you do X% less damage without the buff than with it, you are "gimping yourself".

    The amount of % difference is irrelevant, this is not up for debate.
    But it is. Its like taking T2 enchants vs T3.
    You're losing like 0.1% dps and thats being extremely generous. You think that matters? You think that is gimping yourself? And its not up for debate?
    Crit chance would make your dps vary more than that 0.1%

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    But it is. Its like taking T2 enchants vs T3.
    You're losing like 0.1% dps and thats being extremely generous. You think that matters? You think that is gimping yourself? And its not up for debate?
    Crit chance would make your dps vary more than that 0.1%
    Missing a button in your rotation will make you lose more than 0.1% DPS.

    That wasn't the point though. The point I was replying too is that forgoing XYZ buff constitutes a potential for less throughput.

    And as to your reply, where do you draw the line then ? T3 enchants is only 0.1% increase, why bother with T2 ? it's only 0.X% over T1, psshh T1 ? it's only 0.Y% over nothing. Repeat to infinity and you're running around in green or blue gear.

    And even then you can't really compare enchants to buffs provided by certain classes or specs, since those are "free", enchants are not, I didn't drop 200k on a T3 enchant for my 382 weapon because the dps increase from the enchants wasn't worth the 200k and wasn't required to complete the content I was doing. The higher in content difficulty you go the more you are looking to optimise, so that enchant could be more worthwhile when it's the last avenue to optimise on.

    Which brings me back to more or less my original point, that I may have posted later : Meta only matters for bleeding edge difficulty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    Missing a button in your rotation will make you lose more than 0.1% DPS.

    That wasn't the point though. The point I was replying too is that forgoing XYZ buff constitutes a potential for less throughput.

    And as to your reply, where do you draw the line then ? T3 enchants is only 0.1% increase, why bother with T2 ? it's only 0.X% over T1, psshh T1 ? it's only 0.Y% over nothing. Repeat to infinity and you're running around in green or blue gear.

    And even then you can't really compare enchants to buffs provided by certain classes or specs, since those are "free", enchants are not, I didn't drop 200k on a T3 enchant for my 382 weapon because the dps increase from the enchants wasn't worth the 200k and wasn't required to complete the content I was doing. The higher in content difficulty you go the more you are looking to optimise, so that enchant could be more worthwhile when it's the last avenue to optimise on.

    Which brings me back to more or less my original point, that I may have posted later : Meta only matters for bleeding edge difficulty.
    If you're asking my personal view on gimping yourself? Definitely Anything above 5%. Probably more like 3% but i dont think 0.1% or even 1% matters in the grand scheme of wow. Like you said yourself, pressing the wrong/missing button will have a bigger impact.

    A good example would be vantus runes ranging 100 rating from T1 to T3. And 50 going from T2 to T3.
    I forgot what it is but its an incredibly small % bump in versa, to the point its likely not gonna matter.
    Even if you're making the argument its 50x20 for mythic raid. That's still only 1000 rating, while big, it's not even huge on a personal level.
    Last edited by tomten; 2023-02-03 at 08:52 PM.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Yea, I have had a few too in 20 man’s, but mostly it’s been like half the raid having fun and the other half being silent. I also enjoyed that as 10 mans, it was easier to find a guild as a tank for raids.
    true, that might be a strong case for a 10man hard mode on its own unique maps. a lot of us appear to have noticed it's easy to forge bonds with people after wiping a lot in 10man but on 20 or higher it was always more disconnected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    If majority of people play m+ instead of raids, then that's what Blizzard should focus on.
    that makes no sense. if there was only a 3man and a 20man maybe they would still play more the 3man but that doesn't prove 3man would be the best size.

    20man and 5man have opposing disadvantages and advantages (e.g. 'easier to form' VS 'better balance') so it makes sense the 'between' is missing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    But it is. Its like taking T2 enchants vs T3.
    You're losing like 0.1% dps and thats being extremely generous. You think that matters? You think that is gimping yourself? And its not up for debate?
    Crit chance would make your dps vary more than that 0.1%
    two fallacies here. one: if you wipe at 0.1% on the boss: go tell your raid leader "0.1 doesn't matter".

    second: you misunderstand how statistics works: crit is there on both cases so it's irrelevant.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    1. Create unique maps that are exclusive to 10man groups; that will make epic hard mode raids again for them; you can't mix them up with tiny and dominated-by-metas 5man or big and hard-to-form 20man because it would contaminate the hard mode race as it was with 25 vs 10.

    2. Drop all notion of vertical progression on hard modes; nobody truly cares if someone geared better but they actually care about who is the better skilled; it's painful to play just to gear and it's not fun for almost anyone on mythic raiding or mythic+ higher tiers.

    3. Stop overusing 5man so much; it has its place because it's small but for the same reason it's the most heavily affected by metas of a handful of specs because it has the least room for more specs; you really have to offer hard modes between 5 and 20.
    1) 10 man raiding will be DOMINATED by meta groups. You only have 10 slots, and so many valuable buffs to fill. You WILL fill those slots with specs that can give you the most buffs and damage at the same time. There is no way around that.

    2) What.

    3) I do not disagree here. M+ has been a cancer to the game. It's particularly bizarre that you have this point while also arguing point 1. I feel that you are just a big disengaged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    that makes no sense. if there was only a 3man and a 20man maybe they would still play more the 3man but that doesn't prove 3man would be the best size.

    20man and 5man have opposing disadvantages and advantages (e.g. 'easier to form' VS 'better balance') so it makes sense the 'between' is missing.
    The reason why M+ is so wildly popular is because it is the quickest and easiest method to outfit your character in high level gear. Even moderate keys outpace heroic raids very early each tier. It has nothing to do with group composition.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    10 man meta
    even 20man has metas. the point was that 5man has the most brutal metas because it's a tiny group in a game with an extreme variety of raid-wide buffs and raid-wide utilities (they would have to gimp the game from its variety (e.g. delete entire specs or bufs or utilities) in order to eliminate that).

    the suggestion is to have a middle ground between the extreme differences between 5 and 20 (e.g. 5 is extremely easy to form in the middle of the day with random people for very hard mode but 20man may need an entire week to find people in the same way (literally)).

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