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  1. #1

    Is the state of Retribution Paladin really that bad?

    I'm debating to play a few different melee specs and retribution is one of them. But now i read that the state of retribution is really bad. Is it really as as i read?

    I read dat fury warriors are outselfhealing retri without losing dps. That other classes have way better defences and that the overal dps of retri seems lackluster.

    Now i am casual. Meaning not spending crazy amount of time and doing things like normal raids, low mythic keys and maybe a little pvp so if its just a little number problem i can deal with that. With time that should improve.

    But if the core mechanics/gameplay (overal state of the class) are really that bad i might go demon hunter or death knight.

    So is retri really that bad right now?
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  2. #2
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akomu View Post
    I'm debating to play a few different melee specs and retribution is one of them. But now i read that the state of retribution is really bad. Is it really as as i read?

    I read dat fury warriors are outselfhealing retri without losing dps. That other classes have way better defences and that the overal dps of retri seems lackluster.

    Now i am casual. Meaning not spending crazy amount of time and doing things like normal raids, low mythic keys and maybe a little pvp so if its just a little number problem i can deal with that. With time that should improve.

    But if the core mechanics/gameplay (overal state of the class) are really that bad i might go demon hunter or death knight.

    So is retri really that bad right now?
    The mechanics and the gameplay are not that bad, the tuning is. There are problems; consecration just does not pay off and the best builds have way too many actives. But it's still fun. Just without the necessary throughput.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Akomu View Post
    I'm debating to play a few different melee specs and retribution is one of them. But now i read that the state of retribution is really bad. Is it really as as i read?

    I read dat fury warriors are outselfhealing retri without losing dps. That other classes have way better defences and that the overal dps of retri seems lackluster.

    Now i am casual. Meaning not spending crazy amount of time and doing things like normal raids, low mythic keys and maybe a little pvp so if its just a little number problem i can deal with that. With time that should improve.

    But if the core mechanics/gameplay (overal state of the class) are really that bad i might go demon hunter or death knight.

    So is retri really that bad right now?
    Most melee classes have outhealed ret for some time, either with passive leech or specific abilities. Word of glory can do a lot of healing in pvp, but in pve it's pretty awful since it is a huge dps loss, meanwhile DH can just leech back everything.

    Not like ret is unplayable or anything, but there's also no particular reason for its existence.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Akomu View Post
    I'm debating to play a few different melee specs and retribution is one of them. But now i read that the state of retribution is really bad. Is it really as as i read?

    I read dat fury warriors are outselfhealing retri without losing dps. That other classes have way better defences and that the overal dps of retri seems lackluster.

    Now i am casual. Meaning not spending crazy amount of time and doing things like normal raids, low mythic keys and maybe a little pvp so if its just a little number problem i can deal with that. With time that should improve.

    But if the core mechanics/gameplay (overal state of the class) are really that bad i might go demon hunter or death knight.

    So is retri really that bad right now?
    No.

    It's fine it does decent dmg, mid tier maybe a bit above mid tier.

    Biggest issue is, at least from an M+ perspective. It overaggros for absolutely no reason and it has 0 defensives.

    In M+ it'd actually be a an A tier spec (Not S tier), if it had an extra defensive.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    Most melee classes have outhealed ret for some time, either with passive leech or specific abilities. Word of glory can do a lot of healing in pvp, but in pve it's pretty awful since it is a huge dps loss, meanwhile DH can just leech back everything.

    Not like ret is unplayable or anything, but there's also no particular reason for its existence.
    This doesn't fill me with exicitement to play the class xD

    Also the fact that the aggro makes the class perform underwhelming in mythic plus seems kinda sad
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  6. #6
    I'd say it's in an okay spot, but the biggest issue honestly is that too much damage is tied to consecration for how much movement there is overall.

    Its easier to play with a tank who understands that, but good luck in pugs.

  7. #7
    Is consecration that important now? Cause that seems really bad
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  8. #8
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/31#

    Looks pretty solid to me. It ranks lower in heroic and normal for some reason, but it is still well within an acceptable range.

    As for your other choices, DK is a great class and Unholy can be fun in both AoE and ST with different builds. Frost has two totally unique play styles with both breath and obliteration builds. Breath is the type of build that makes you feel great when you get lucky and play it well, but makes you want to throw your keyboard when you have to drop your breath because of mechanics. Demon Hunter is boring IMO, I've tried to main swap to it about 3 times at this point and within 2-3 weeks I just don't want to play anymore.

  9. #9
    Like any spec, you can play it well, but it's also seen as an "undesirable" spec by people playing the meta. My opinion:

    • Too many active abilities, hence a lot of "ramp up" time to get going (5 HP for Dawn > Crusade > Seraphim > Build to 10 stacks > Trinket > Build to 3-5 HP > Final Reckoning > Start dps-ing. Zzzzzzzzzzz

    • Too many talents tied to Consecration. If standing in it gave us a boost of some kind or inspired allies around us, the current focus on it might be understandable.

    • Too many "dead" talents, or talents you'd rather skip but are forced to spend points on to progress down the tree. I'd take a tree full of boring passives that I don't mind taking over actives that I hate to have to drill down to.

    • Blizzard's own words state that Ret should be a "Slow-moving juggernaut". Okay, I'll take slowness as long as I absolutely am an immovable annihilator...which implies we are tanky. Which we are not outside a few seconds of bubble-taunt.

    I'd like to see our big utility be inspiring allies within melee/close range. Our abilities grant different "inspirations" to allies, whether it's DPS boost, stat boost, speed boost, something that gives us a unique and interesting utility instead of the "mid DPS and few desirable abilities" that we currently are.

    I love the paladin archetype, I just don't find Ret fun right now. It's not horrible, but just kind of like eating dry toast, there are tastier things to eat.
    Last edited by Gloriandus; 2023-01-18 at 02:52 PM.

  10. #10
    I'm no master, or top tier player. But I generally do pretty decent for myself.
    My guild is progressing Razageth HC atm, and I'm mostly playing with the same or similar players to previous expansions.
    And my output is not quite where I'd expect it to be, my feeling is that the tuning is a tad bit low. But that is just a feeling.

    I'm not planning on switching class, but I'm not thrilled about the current state of Ret.
    There's just so many 1-2 minutes cd's to manage. It's managable, but compared to the previous expansions it's a button bloat.
    And the fact that this expansion is all about on use trinkets, only adds to that fact.

    I also absolutely abhor that we lost all our utility. Depending on how you spec, if you go full throughput spec, you will be probably be missing BoP, Cleanse and what not on your bars, no heal talent.
    And I still have no idea who fucking asked for active aura's, absolute rubbish, and retribution aura is of an abominable design, they even added "non-death" performance to it now. So if you're forced to use Devotion aura, tough luck.
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  11. #11
    The damage is mid tier atm. We are kind of Decent on all the fights in the raid except we are absolute garbage on the spider. The problem I have with ret is how squishy we are and how convoluted the rotation feels. The opener atm is:

    Build 5 HoPo > Crusade > Finisher > Build to 5 > Finisher > Build to 5 > Seraphim > Build to 5 > Final Reckoning > Now you do insane dps for 8 seconds.

    Consecration is a decent chunk of out dps now. If your tank doesnt care or doesnt like you, you're doing shit. Ive noticed I pull aggro a lot in M+ but kind of didn't think anything of it. Is that just a ret thing?

    We also got a talent that lets our Judgement do 100k damage but its tied to using Hand of Sacrifice. And to get the dps increase you MUST take that damage. You can't use bubble or Shield of Vengeance. Both will absorb the damage you take and Judgement does NOT benefit from damage that you absorb. So they want you to face tank the damage for a dps boost. Shield of Vengeance is also a dps tool so you're kind of encouraged to use it as a dps tool instead of a defensive.

  12. #12
    Damage is alright. Defensives are terrible. Mobility is lacking.

    Main problem are the defensives. When you see monks with 4 defensives and rogue with lol feint, it's depressing. In high keys you need defensives or you go splat and Paladins have low max hp.
    In short... we gonna go splat. I would very much like to get one more defensive or at least be able to take both SoV and divine protection with 1m CD.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2023-01-20 at 05:48 AM.

  13. #13
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Honestly feel what we need is for the class tree to change. Instead of all three paths ending in throughput, keep one throughput and turn the other two into a strong defensive and a strong utility. We are paladins, together with shaman we are the original support classes of WoW yet Ret can barely offer any.

    I don't think there is a solution for Consecration. It's not just the tank hating you; sometimes the tank just needs to kite and that's that. Imo it would have to be MUCH larger. One idea I had would be a talent that let your Steed drag any active consecrations along so that we can at least relocate better (and so that Prot did not have to lose so much defense when it is on the move).

  14. #14
    From a PvP perspective they are a 'very' soft target. Their defensives are predictable. Their burst is brilliant but also predictable. Their mobility is awful. Players know to focus the ret. Not to say they can't work because they can but the class doesn't feel good.

  15. #15
    Mechagnome
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    Retribution really needs more mobility.

    Give them a heroic type leap, that spawns concecration on the ground when landing.

    Give them back judgement glyph that increases movement speed when you use judgement.

    Allow for both Shield of Vengeance and Divine Protection.

    And for the love of god, fix their insane ramp up time for PvE burst rotation.

  16. #16
    Do any of you think that Blizzard will fix these issues paladins are having? I saw i a hotfix for paladins that they wanna do something about the defences and rotation. So they could have some hidden potential maybe to actual be good?

    Going by the comments now it doesnt seem that going for Retri is the right choice now and i should better go for Havoc DH or Frost DK
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  17. #17
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../31#dataset=90

    after latest changes looking at mythic over 2 weeks 90% percentile retri is top 3 in terms of damage but its mostly boosted by a lot of people dieing during progess, for hc they are about 5 from last

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mars_Trueskills View Post
    Give them a heroic type leap, that spawns concecration on the ground when landing.
    This seems like a really great option. Now i saw that there was a talent that could sometimes cast concececration by doing another skill. Is this talent enough of are retri pala's really hardcasting consecration everytime?
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  19. #19
    Scarab Lord Nymrohd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars_Trueskills View Post
    Retribution really needs more mobility.

    Give them a heroic type leap, that spawns concecration on the ground when landing.

    Give them back judgement glyph that increases movement speed when you use judgement.

    Allow for both Shield of Vengeance and Divine Protection.

    And for the love of god, fix their insane ramp up time for PvE burst rotation.
    Eh if you tie mobility to dropping consecration it means it needs to be used on CD for dps.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Eh if you tie mobility to dropping consecration it means it needs to be used on CD for dps.
    I guess it could simply move an active consecration instead of spawning another one then.

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