Is the state of Retribution Paladin really that bad?

[Nymrohd]

Not really, nothing here has anything to do with balance lol

It's just a result of the game being 20 years old and design decisions compounding on one another. e.g. rogues getting stuff like cloak to compete in arena, then it just carries on in perpetuity

I would still rather have this version than any before imo. Balance has issues but it's better than it has been in a long time.

And the rework of ret is a great sign that they actually have time this expansion to change things since there's no stupid BP stuff wasting developer time

I think the issue was mostly with how class design changed from WoD onward; the great pruning in WoD and then borrowed power left the core of many classes and specs in shambles. They had the opportunity to fix it with DF but with some classes, notably paladin, they just did not put the work in.

[EverDash]

Are you confused why a tank specialization can tank more mobs?
Its a change to how the game works, its not a ret/prot thing, its a dps vs tank thing.

My issue isn't the disparity in survivability - that makes sense. Tank vs DPS and all that.

It's the fact that, as Prot, I can kill 15 enemies simultaneously in the same amount of time that it takes me to kill 2-3 enemies as Ret.

The trade-off in survivability is supposed to be damage output. And since Prot's damage seems to be tuned correctly, then that leaves Ret's survivability as way, way undertuned.

There's virtually no reason to quest as Ret right now.

[paxen]

My issue isn't the disparity in survivability - that makes sense. Tank vs DPS and all that.

It's the fact that, as Prot, I can kill 15 enemies simultaneously in the same amount of time that it takes me to kill 2-3 enemies as Ret.

The trade-off in survivability is supposed to be damage output. And since Prot's damage seems to be tuned correctly, then that leaves Ret's survivability as way, way undertuned.

There's virtually no reason to quest as Ret right now.

I mostly agree that Ret survivability is undertuned, but...

You can't always pull 15 mobs at a time. I used to have a ret spec to change to for elites, because stuff like that takes aaaaaages as prot.

[Gloriandus]

Looking at possible loadouts with the new talents, and there is a likelihood that certain builds will not have Wake of Ashes, which will feel weird at first.

[minteK917]

Update on the tree... its even better now. They removed even more utility to free the ret tree and added more damage stuff. Apparently theres still more coming for mobility, and new ret stuff has more NYI in their nodes, it looks like its gona be holystrike buff in some way. Its been like a decade since ret get this much love. Tree is ramping up to be one of the best imo, its gona be up there with warrior for me.

Obviously the dps is not tuned yet lol. But all the work put there mechanically, it would be weird the damage would be nerfed to the ground after that. You have this cool cleavy spec with lots of damage type choices and make it suck ass only in numbers.

[Nymrohd]

Looking at possible loadouts with the new talents, and there is a likelihood that certain builds will not have Wake of Ashes, which will feel weird at first.

Yeah if you go for a full physical built, I think wake makes less sense.

[Thundering]

There were a lot of problems with ret.

but they still havent fix the main issue.....

[Eon Drache]

but they still havent fix the main issue.....

Idk, most issues have been fixed so far. Mobility has been improved and they said they have more to do.

[Thundering]

Idk, most issues have been fixed so far. Mobility has been improved and they said they have more to do.

Mobility has not really been improved, and its far from fixed. the rest of the changes are just changes not really improvements.

[minteK917]

Id say having most of the kit able to hit 30 yards away is part of mobility fix lol. Not sure what else you want on the non mobility changes. The rest is definitely improvement, half the tree was consecration bullshit?

[Arkura]

Does DK's also have freedom, bubble and bop?

DK is the most tanky class in the game when it comes to their dps specs. Theres unholy DKs that can solo mythic dungeons in Dragonflight. freedom does nothing but break slows/roots and makes you immune. DKs have dmg reduction and stun break from one of their cds. DKs are in a completely different league when it comes to their own defensive stats then most other classes tbh

[Eon Drache]

Mobility has not really been improved, and its far from fixed. the rest of the changes are just changes not really improvements.

You have to be trolling to think defensives havent been improved.

[Wrecktangle]

Mobility has not really been improved, and its far from fixed. the rest of the changes are just changes not really improvements.

What exactly are Ret's weaknesses in your fictional world? I know what they are in the game, but do you? What HASN'T been fixed or dramatically improved yet?

[Thundering]

What exactly are Ret's weaknesses in your fictional world? I know what they are in the game, but do you? What HASN'T been fixed or dramatically improved yet?

Rets weakness is its mobility ingame, just play a warrior their mobility is insane compared to a pala and they heal got def etc.....

[minteK917]

Rets weakness is its mobility ingame, just play a warrior their mobility is insane compared to a pala and they heal got def etc.....

Dunno if you tried the ptr, but ret can literally kite warriors to death. Again what are you talking about not changing lol.

[Wrecktangle]

Rets weakness is its mobility ingame, just play a warrior their mobility is insane compared to a pala and they heal got def etc.....

But you also said that the other changes aren't actually improvements, which as it stands is objectively false. Ret does garbage cleave, they put talents in (pending balance) to improve that. Ret has too many buttons, they put talents in to reduce bloat and culled the main offenders reducing button bloat. Ret has some of the worst defensive experiences in the game. They added baseline and talents that (pending tuning) put us firmly in the top tier category, easily one of the best melee.

They gave us a mini LAotL in a talent. They gave us a MS boost on freedom, and took pony oGCD. While I do agree I think there's room for more improvement in the mobility sphere, you're absolutely clueless if you think the other items and the existing updates aren't "improvements".

It's ok to be invested and even upset about the current state of Ret, but use actual examples and logic before posting to actually offer meaningful insight.

[Gloriandus]

Trying it out more, Crusading Strikes feels amazing for passive HP generation. One less button, with more benefit. I'm all over the place on the other talents, though. We are spoiled for choice with the changes are they are now.

On the paladin general tree, I like that I can choose Divine Toll to be on a 45 second CD instead of having to track Divine Resonance, and that I can get back some of our old utility (e.g., Cleanse) without too much sacrifice.

[Gracin]

Trying it out more, Crusading Strikes feels amazing for passive HP generation. One less button, with more benefit.

I never play on the PTR, so is this basically like the DH ability that get's rid of their builder and bakes it into auto attacks? I know I never cared for it on DH because it felt like there wasn't enough to do with the builder gone, but getting rid of a builder for the button bloated Ret seems like a win. So long as they also account for the damage difference from not using CS.

[Thundering]

But you also said that the other changes aren't actually improvements, which as it stands is objectively false. Ret does garbage cleave, they put talents in (pending balance) to improve that. Ret has too many buttons, they put talents in to reduce bloat and culled the main offenders reducing button bloat. Ret has some of the worst defensive experiences in the game. They added baseline and talents that (pending tuning) put us firmly in the top tier category, easily one of the best melee.

They gave us a mini LAotL in a talent. They gave us a MS boost on freedom, and took pony oGCD. While I do agree I think there's room for more improvement in the mobility sphere, you're absolutely clueless if you think the other items and the existing updates aren't "improvements".

It's ok to be invested and even upset about the current state of Ret, but use actual examples and logic before posting to actually offer meaningful insight.

The other changes are not improvements since all they do is lead to a more boring gameplay with less things to track and buttons to press......and if you want more dps then that could been fixed before as well.... Like the removal of exorcism and making crusader strike an auto attack....
You call the currently tree bloated??, we do have alot of downtime currently and its even worse on the ptr......
The lack of cleave has been fixed by adding the cleave to crusader strike and judgement, its a very boring solution we need more buttons to press not less....

Its fairly clearly we play in very different manners and i wont call you clueless since i think that is just disrespectful, but if you like the 1007 then sure like it.
All it does to me is make it very clear that dropping my paladin that has been my main since vanilla for a warrior is the right thing to do, i think paladins have been bad for way too long.

[Delever]

The other changes are not improvements since all they do is lead to a more boring gameplay with less things to track and buttons to press......and if you want more dps then that could been fixed before as well.... Like the removal of exorcism and making crusader strike an auto attack....
You call the currently tree bloated??, we do have alot of downtime currently and its even worse on the ptr......
The lack of cleave has been fixed by adding the cleave to crusader strike and judgement, its a very boring solution we need more buttons to press not less....

Its fairly clearly we play in very different manners and i wont call you clueless since i think that is just disrespectful, but if you like the 1007 then sure like it.
All it does to me is make it very clear that dropping my paladin that has been my main since vanilla for a warrior is the right thing to do, i think paladins have been bad for way too long.

The current downtime is not due to us having very few buttons.... If anything, ret has too many buttons. Having a rotation with a lot of buttons can be fun but it really depends on the context of the situation and the fight.
The downtime atm stems from having way too much build up that spends our HoPo until we can start doing damage, then you have like 15 seconds where your rotation feels perfect and then all the buildup dies and we cannot keep up the HoPo generation needed to feel like an active rotation until our build up buttons are back.

The solution (which they seem to be doing) is to instead remove or reduce this tremendous build up and just have the rotation be more active but with fewer buttons so you dont have this 15 second window where you feel amazing but rather feel nice throughout the entirety of a fight.