Is the state of Retribution Paladin really that bad?

[Azharok]

They are a part of your rotation for situations in the open world and doing trash. Weird right you spend more time in the open world and killing trash dungeons than you do bosses and raids? And being able to do something when you cant reach your enemy for whatever reason is more fun than just standing there.

If you're gonna include those buttons to the warrior's rotation (lol) then you also need to include all the paladin's abilities too.


I'm sure that 5k heroic throw is going to be super clutch in your m+2 and normal raids...

[Thundering]

If you're gonna include those buttons to the warrior's rotation (lol) then you also need to include all the paladin's abilities too.


I'm sure that 5k heroic throw is going to be super clutch in your m+2 and normal raids...

Ah right like hand of freedom and hand protection maybe hand of sacrifice....or maybe flash of light/Holy light they are so handy like in all situations..? wow we haven't even mention all warrior abilities.
Oh wait they these abilities do 0 damage xD
Ret Paladins are even so bad they are giving them a full redesign, that itself tells you something. And somehow Blizzard skip fixing the main issue mobility.........and you are still trying to protect the wreck of a class.

[Azharok]

Ah right like hand of freedom and hand protection maybe hand of sacrifice....or maybe flash of light/Holy light they are so handy like in all situations..? wow we haven't even mention all warrior abilities.
Oh wait they these abilities do 0 damage xD
Ret Paladins are even so bad they are giving them a full redesign, that itself tells you something. And somehow Blizzard skip fixing the main issue mobility.........and you are still trying to protect the wreck of a class.

They actually fixed the mobility a fair bit by putting divine steed OFF the gcd.

I'm not straw-manning here, you are, to imply that heroic throw or impending victory is part of the DPS rotation because the button does damage while also ignoring the ret's equivalent spells is dumb.

If you look at a sim breakdown of an arms warrior's rotation you have 8-9 buttons that do damage. That is it. You don't use slam, you don't use impending victory, any of the throws, you don't rend nor hamstring ... You can have them on your bars for the one in a hundred scenario where they are useful but you can't say "ret has no buttons to press" hence arms is superior while also listing abilities you won't use 99% of the time.

Pants on head take.

edit : I'm not protecting the spec, your arguments aren't valid there's a difference. Ret has been dogshit since WoW exists, was slightly goodish during Wotlk/Cata, and I do think it needs some love because it is a fun spec to play both lore and gameplay wise.

[kliffharry]

Shield of Vengeance does damage as well as Sacrifice increases Judgment damage. Blessing of Freedom is incredible for last boss in AV. Blessing of Protection is incredible for wolfmanboss in HoV.

[Kalisandra]

Ah right like hand of freedom and hand protection maybe hand of sacrifice

Hand of Sacrifice can be a DPS button...

[Thundering]

Shield of Vengeance does damage as well as Sacrifice increases Judgment damage. Blessing of Freedom is incredible for last boss in AV. Blessing of Protection is incredible for wolfmanboss in HoV.

Hand of Sacrifice can be a DPS button...

You are both right so now we got 2 more abilities, and point remains.

[Eon Drache]

oh lets see,
-----------
Paladin
Crusader strike
Judgement
Consecration
Divine toll
Divine storm
Wake of Ashes
Final verdict/Execution sentence
Hammer of wrath

9 abilities..........

Avenging Wrath

If you are going with abilities that deal damage you forgot some.

Blade of Justice is a core rotational ability? Idk why it was left off?
Shield of Vengeance does a considerable amount of damage?
Hand of Sacrifice does a great deal too.
Exorcism is still optimal in a lot of fights. Specially on aoe and trash?

[Jester Joe]

Thats kinda the thing they are already listed..........

Hamstering= hand of hind (but it does no damage should not be on the list for that reason it does no DAMAGE)
Heroic throw= Exorcism (being removed, also already listed)
Wrecking throw dont have any since Exorcism is already taken
Storm bolt= I Guess you want hammer of Justice but guess what it does no damage.......
Impeding victory paladins dont have anything like it.....

So wow 1 more ability that for the list that does no damage........very usefull....

How are you leaving out final reckoning and seraphim for ret which are literally core CDs and then arguing with others saying they're wrong

[gtfo_my_internets]

My issue isn't the disparity in survivability - that makes sense. Tank vs DPS and all that.

It's the fact that, as Prot, I can kill 15 enemies simultaneously in the same amount of time that it takes me to kill 2-3 enemies as Ret.

The trade-off in survivability is supposed to be damage output. And since Prot's damage seems to be tuned correctly, then that leaves Ret's survivability as way, way undertuned.

There's virtually no reason to quest as Ret right now.

the only way this is true is if you're not very well geared as a ret, and you're pulling 15 elites in the open world somewhere like nokhud or the keep where shit is designed to be done in a group.

in pve content ret's ability to survive, as well as keep a raid or party going with spot heals, is incredibly strong. The biggest problem is that unlike other classes our main healing ability directly competes with our damage for resources on top of the GCD price from just hitting the button. People cry because it makes them look worse on the dps meters.

too many times i've put an undergeared healer on my back as ret only to have the entire raid or party praising the healer for carrying the group. most poeple look only at the meters to evaluate someones performance/skill and the only thing that matters to them for ret is the dps meter. Saving people with fat WOGs, using bops or sac effectively, or shit even using cleanse don't show up on the dps meter so everything you do in a utility sense is either ignored or attributed to the healer

[Jester Joe]

the only way this is true is if you're not very well geared as a ret, and you're pulling 15 elites in the open world somewhere like nokhud or the keep where shit is designed to be done in a group.

in pve content ret's ability to survive, as well as keep a raid or party going with spot heals, is incredibly strong. The biggest problem is that unlike other classes our main healing ability directly competes with our damage for resources on top of the GCD price from just hitting the button. People cry because it makes them look worse on the dps meters.

too many times i've put an undergeared healer on my back as ret only to have the entire raid or party praising the healer for carrying the group. most poeple look only at the meters to evaluate someones performance/skill and the only thing that matters to them for ret is the dps meter. Saving people with fat WOGs, using bops or sac effectively, or shit even using cleanse don't show up on the dps meter so everything you do in a utility sense is either ignored or attributed to the healer

I mean, I dunno what kind of situations you're in, but most the time, even if I'm spamming WoG on CD when I can it's still only like drops in a bucket for healing.

And while Sac is nice, ret is too at risk of dying themselves to take the extra damage for someone else when you're getting into +18s and higher.

[Eon Drache]

the only way this is true is if you're not very well geared as a ret, and you're pulling 15 elites in the open world somewhere like nokhud or the keep where shit is designed to be done in a group.

in pve content ret's ability to survive, as well as keep a raid or party going with spot heals, is incredibly strong. The biggest problem is that unlike other classes our main healing ability directly competes with our damage for resources on top of the GCD price from just hitting the button. People cry because it makes them look worse on the dps meters.

too many times i've put an undergeared healer on my back as ret only to have the entire raid or party praising the healer for carrying the group. most poeple look only at the meters to evaluate someones performance/skill and the only thing that matters to them for ret is the dps meter. Saving people with fat WOGs, using bops or sac effectively, or shit even using cleanse don't show up on the dps meter so everything you do in a utility sense is either ignored or attributed to the healer

Id love to see your logs on this so we can all see how amazing you are when you are saving groups with your wogs and carrying the healing as ret.

[Kalisandra]

I mean, I dunno what kind of situations you're in, but most the time, even if I'm spamming WoG on CD when I can it's still only like drops in a bucket for healing.

Spamming WoGs, and FoL when not in melee range because of fire all over, is mostly about self-preservation and a little spot off-healing of others. And I don't think I've ever done a run where my healing doing that was more than the Fury Warrior did (and that's counting actual healing, not including over-healing), and the Warrior lost next to no DPS doing it (the only time they'd lose DPS is if they'd felt the need to hit Victory Rush/Impending Victory when rage capped or GCD locked).

The Warrior, in doing as much or more DPS and not having to exchange any for healing, while also doing amazing self-healing is helping a group more than a Ret whose been forced into dropping DPS for a bit of spot-healing, because they're lightening the healer's load more, and they're making sure the fights end fast. When a Ret exchanges DPS for healing they're drawing the fight out (though not as much as dying does, of course).

And that bres we got? My experience is that it's as predicted during beta - nice, but plenty of other classes have one, and melee DPS is one of the worst roles to be using it (healer's not great either - if people are dying they generally already have plenty to do).

[VetteGuy85]

So, I created an account here just to comment on this. The current state of the spec is a hair above useless, unless you WAY outgear whomever you are fighting. Divine Shield being able to be broken by other classes and being tied to GCD has made survivability dreadfully low. Having no way to close distance other than a 3 second sprint that suffers from slows has made any class whatsoever be able to kite us. Having most of our kit be considered spells that also have long cast times means a single silence type ability takes away most of our abilities for 5 seconds or more, making us only able to auto or crusader strike. The button bloat is SO overwhelming you might forget half of where your abilities are sometimes. I've played a paladin since classic came out, and the state of it this xpac made me quit playing for a while. The entire spec feels good at nothing, and terrible at everything. It would almost be funny if it wasn't so stupidly depressing. The entire class was meant to be tough to kill, and yet it has been destroyed so thoroughly that it is easier to kill a paladin than anything else. I have full pvp gear, 30% versatility(which isn't great I know, I just do skirmishes and bg's), and I can die before a single GCD is up in order to use my bubble. If you enjoy any other class whatsoever, do that until the rework. Even then, I'd wait and see if they solved any of the actual problems. Based on the videos I watched, they didn't, they just made more buff stacking and rotation changes in order to try and burst shot someone. Zero seems to have been done with survivability.

[Tangra58]

I mean, I dunno what kind of situations you're in, but most the time, even if I'm spamming WoG on CD when I can it's still only like drops in a bucket for healing.

And while Sac is nice, ret is too at risk of dying themselves to take the extra damage for someone else when you're getting into +18s and higher.

Yeah, considering it costs damage, Ret healing is pretty sad. I'm glad more self-healing is being added. I still think we have too much single-target utility for a melee as well, a talent that automatically casts Blessing of Sacrifice on dying allies would be nice for reducing bloat.

[Cynical Asshole]

So, I created an account here just to comment on this. The current state of the spec is a hair above useless, unless you WAY outgear whomever you are fighting. Divine Shield being able to be broken by other classes and being tied to GCD has made survivability dreadfully low. Having no way to close distance other than a 3 second sprint that suffers from slows has made any class whatsoever be able to kite us. Having most of our kit be considered spells that also have long cast times means a single silence type ability takes away most of our abilities for 5 seconds or more, making us only able to auto or crusader strike. The button bloat is SO overwhelming you might forget half of where your abilities are sometimes. I've played a paladin since classic came out, and the state of it this xpac made me quit playing for a while. The entire spec feels good at nothing, and terrible at everything. It would almost be funny if it wasn't so stupidly depressing. The entire class was meant to be tough to kill, and yet it has been destroyed so thoroughly that it is easier to kill a paladin than anything else. I have full pvp gear, 30% versatility(which isn't great I know, I just do skirmishes and bg's), and I can die before a single GCD is up in order to use my bubble. If you enjoy any other class whatsoever, do that until the rework. Even then, I'd wait and see if they solved any of the actual problems. Based on the videos I watched, they didn't, they just made more buff stacking and rotation changes in order to try and burst shot someone. Zero seems to have been done with survivability.

Most of your comment applies so well to Hunter too. I actually dumped my hunter after 6 years of maining it because it's pure garbage at PVP in DF. Can't kite shit because everything has more gap closers than I have gap makers, especially warriors and rogues, can't shake these guys off at all, and my survivability is so low that pretty much everything else can just outlast me, and often I die before I even had the chance to use all my shit.

[Gloriandus]

Set bonuses:

Retribution

• (2) Set Bonus: Judgment and Hammer of Wrath deal 10% increased damage and 20% increased critical strike damage.
• (4) Set Bonus: Judgment increases the damage enemies take from your Holy Power spenders by an additional 5%. Hammer of Wrath applies Judgment to enemies.

https://www.wowhead.com/blue-tracker...harion-1545299

So, Crit/Mastery or maybe Crit/Haste the new hotness? (Inb4 "Ackshually, the Discord says we don't stack particular stats, noob!")

[Auxis]

So, I thought we were getting something like Heroic Leap that left a Consecration on impact with the rework, but I can't find anything about it in Wowhead. Am I just imagining things?

[Kalisandra]

So, I thought we were getting something like Heroic Leap that left a Consecration on impact with the rework, but I can't find anything about it in Wowhead. Am I just imagining things?

There was some datamined stuff that could be interpreted that way, that all. Nothing was implemented on any PTR build, people were just being excessively hopeful that they'd get a spell that was canned in Legion development because it didn't work well and was crap.