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  1. #41
    Well, that blue post is a very nice read.

    They really acknowledge that there is a wide range of problems with Ret at the moment.

    Well, can only wait to see what they make of it.
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  2. #42
    Yeah, nice they actually do it, kinda surprised they kept their word on this. Any improvement will be good. Being slow is fine as long as there are real strengths in other areas I guess, and it makes some sense. They are sort of implying that rets dmg profile might be nerfed though, so that's bad, but if ret feels better to play, I don't really give much of a shit about that.

    One thing I noticed however, after glancing at some random oneliner comments, is you see other classes instantly complaining such as hunters, perhaps the most mobile class in the game considering they can also execute most of their rotation on the move, about their defense. They really don't get it. People are so biased/clueless and opinionated, it's quite hopeless when you look at it. Even seeing dks complain with their insane defensives. I don't know, it's weird.

  3. #43
    I called the excessive button bloat way before this expansion even launched. People were talking about how it would take more "skill" to play. If another spec has to manage 7 buttons and you have to manage 14, for equal or less payoff, that is not a skill issue. You are just doing more work for a similar outcome and that is stupid.

    Take a wild guess as to why I decided to skip this expansion.

  4. #44
    Ret has been broken for a while, and hard to balance for a lot longer. I'm very keen for the update. There's too much to manage for the level of reward that spec brings and hence I don't really play it now. There's a lot of really meh stuff in the spec that can be pruned.

  5. #45
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    As a Paladin player since TBC, paladins havent felt the same since Cata... Brings back seals, and judgements, hands and blessings (the last two are still kinda in there), thee Paladins back around its roots again. and make something cool with that. I am still not sure why they moved away from that method. I hate they have just made paladins a more flashy warrior with sparkles.

    At least that's the reason I no longer play Paladin. I don't speak for everyone of course.
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  6. #46
    I think one of Seraphim, Execution Sentence and Final Judgment has to be folded in the rest. Exorcism needs to either go or change so that it replaces something else (Blade of Justice?).
    I see people asking for us to get both defensives instead of either/or; we need a strong defensive passive imo (something that converts damage to a shield, up to 10% of max health like warlocks have which would be far more thematically appropriate for us).
    In utility we should have something big. Honestly I think one of the three throughput talents at the end of the class tree needs to go (probably Paragon, it's been nerfed so much anyway) and replaced with some big utility for the entire class. We could get a group mobility or some solid group defensive. Imagine if Aura Mastery was a class skill at the end of the tree instead of a Holy skill and Crusader Aura mastery gave everyone 3s Divine Steed. Ret Aura should just be a passive.
    As for mobility, I know people hate steed. I think the only basic problem with Steed is that it needs the different immunities Death's Advance has so that it doesn't transform us into an instant CC target in PvP. Beyond that it just needs to be more and better. Though I would not be opposed to a Falling Sword (or Turalyon's Might, obviously renamed that never made it in game) mechanic being added. Extra points if it would place a consecration where we land instead of an additional AoE mechanic that is not needed.
    Last edited by Nymrohd; 2023-01-30 at 11:05 AM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Akomu View Post
    I'm debating to play a few different melee specs and retribution is one of them. But now i read that the state of retribution is really bad. Is it really as as i read?

    I read dat fury warriors are outselfhealing retri without losing dps. That other classes have way better defences and that the overal dps of retri seems lackluster.

    Now i am casual. Meaning not spending crazy amount of time and doing things like normal raids, low mythic keys and maybe a little pvp so if its just a little number problem i can deal with that. With time that should improve.

    But if the core mechanics/gameplay (overal state of the class) are really that bad i might go demon hunter or death knight.

    So is retri really that bad right now?
    You know paladins, supreme dramaqueens

    Apart from some defensive issues in pvp they're fine.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    You know paladins, supreme dramaqueens

    Apart from some defensive issues in pvp they're fine.
    Unless PvP is not the focus of this discussion at which point Ret has some issues that need addressing, even the Devs are aware of the issues Ret currently has the biggest of which is survivability .. Ret dies faster than a mage at a warrior convention for a supposed Tanky DPS spec this is clearly something that needs fixing, the amount of buttons ret has is another . .we simply have too many and none of them really offer any pay off alone.

    Having to press 6+ buttons to even get started DPSing is just fucked, never mind that as soon as you step out of consecration your DPS tanks...which happens too often for that talent to be as much of our DPS as it currently is.

    As for PvP .. even a trained monkey can play wow PvP and win, just smash the keyboard and yell at the screen. (or just buy a carry .. but no one does that right)
    Last edited by Addiena; 2023-01-30 at 11:44 AM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    You know paladins, supreme dramaqueens

    Apart from some defensive issues in pvp they're fine.
    I mean, Blizzard says we have the highest deathcount in all forms of content. But sure. Fine.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by loras View Post
    You know paladins, supreme dramaqueens

    Apart from some defensive issues in pvp they're fine.
    Blue posts says sonething else but what ever

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    I think one of Seraphim, Execution Sentence and Final Judgment has to be folded in the rest. Exorcism needs to either go or change so that it replaces something else (Blade of Justice?).
    I see people asking for us to get both defensives instead of either/or; we need a strong defensive passive imo (something that converts damage to a shield, up to 10% of max health like warlocks have which would be far more thematically appropriate for us).
    In utility we should have something big. Honestly I think one of the three throughput talents at the end of the class tree needs to go (probably Paragon, it's been nerfed so much anyway) and replaced with some big utility for the entire class. We could get a group mobility or some solid group defensive. Imagine if Aura Mastery was a class skill at the end of the tree instead of a Holy skill and Crusader Aura mastery gave everyone 3s Divine Steed. Ret Aura should just be a passive.
    As for mobility, I know people hate steed. I think the only basic problem with Steed is that it needs the different immunities Death's Advance has so that it doesn't transform us into an instant CC target in PvP. Beyond that it just needs to be more and better. Though I would not be opposed to a Falling Sword (or Turalyon's Might, obviously renamed that never made it in game) mechanic being added. Extra points if it would place a consecration where we land instead of an additional AoE mechanic that is not needed.
    Serepth could go for all I care, the damage buff (if needed) could be baked in final reckoning and its effect combined like you said, reduce the damage and cd and now its probably a lot more fun to use. From 3 to1.

    Blade of justice and exorcism should be the choice, there is something fun to be said about some of the range builds. Removing it, means removing fun. Why not harness it and make it a nod. It could even have a follow up talent called holy wrath (old ability) aoe finnisher shoots holy bolts at targets. Replaces ds? Just a though. The other nod for that could be the ds proc for example.

    As of devensives, well I would love for sacred shield to come back. It was much for fun to use and I can help team mates better. I just hope that flash heal or wog will be good in pvp.

    Everyone hates steed. The only improvement I would like to see (prefer it being removed) is to just straight ip give the prot version to ret as well. I prefer some kind of holy leap such as turalyon as he used it on that dreanei planet. I think you linked exactly that. It looked cool as hell.
    There are a lot of people still holding on to long arm and persuit, but idk about the chances of that. They talked about it before, unless their vison changed or people push realy hard I dont see it happening. They seem very strict on the mobility topic. I think the offset should be that we need to be better in ways to slow our target. Concentration could help with that. Some kind of vortex spell in the shape of holy ground that keeps people in place.

    The concentration effect imo should be a passive that applies when ever u use certain abilities. Maybe just add one of your rotational abillities to it+the leap and something else, maybe wings as well. I would lile to see concentration being the new default slow for ret.
    Remove concentration
    Add talent to make it move with you.

    Auras should be usefull and only be 2 or 3. Worth to switch when the situation demands it. Stuff like 5 or 10% movement speed increase or 5% haste would be more then enough. What each effect should be is debateable. Some kind of utility offheal would also be cool. Rewards you when u use your heal or what ever.

    Ret doesnt feel ret, they lost a lot of appeal for me. I would love a 2023 version of seal swisting. It was very rewarding fun fealing back then when you pulled it off. Maybe reduce it to 2 seals instead of 4 for example.

    A lot more can be said, but I cant wait as an oldschool pala player. I edited more then I wanted, but I feel there is alot of room for fun discussion so I added a few things.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2023-01-30 at 12:39 PM.

  11. #51
    I'd have no problem with them leaning into the "slow-moving juggernaut", in that instead of darting all over the place on Divine Steed, we're encouraged to STAY in the thick of it.

    - Resolve (Active): Stand firm against the enemy's strongest attacks, reducing damage taken by X% for X seconds and causing all Holy Power spenders to do X% more damage during the effect. The DR would be fairly substantial at the cost of a long CD; maybe one of those "once-a-boss" abilities.

    - Divine Shield (Active): Same effect as current, but with a secondary effect of putting a minor absorb shield on allies within X yards (close range) for X seconds.

    - Rebuke (Active): Taunting an enemy increases our armor tremendously for X seconds, letting us actually tank for a short duration. Obviously this would be quite a short duration. Maybe up the CD to 20 seconds.

    - Lay on Hands (Active): Using Lay on Hands on another player in need of gives you a personal Rallying Cry-type effect for X seconds. Long CD.

    - Inspiration (Passive): Consecration has a chance to inspire nearby allies within the effect, increasing their highest secondary stat by X% for X seconds. Sort of a "mass Seraphim", but limited to one stat.

    Some of these are pie in the sky, but I don't mind sacrificing mobility at the reward of cooler abilities and better utility.

  12. #52
    Fairly good idea tbh, but probably also too controversial. I think the ideas are good though.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Gloriandus View Post
    I'd have no problem with them leaning into the "slow-moving juggernaut", in that instead of darting all over the place on Divine Steed, we're encouraged to STAY in the thick of it.

    - Resolve (Active): Stand firm against the enemy's strongest attacks, reducing damage taken by X% for X seconds and causing all Holy Power spenders to do X% more damage during the effect. The DR would be fairly substantial at the cost of a long CD; maybe one of those "once-a-boss" abilities.

    - Divine Shield (Active): Same effect as current, but with a secondary effect of putting a minor absorb shield on allies within X yards (close range) for X seconds.

    - Rebuke (Active): Taunting an enemy increases our armor tremendously for X seconds, letting us actually tank for a short duration. Obviously this would be quite a short duration. Maybe up the CD to 20 seconds.

    - Lay on Hands (Active): Using Lay on Hands on another player in need of gives you a personal Rallying Cry-type effect for X seconds. Long CD.

    - Inspiration (Passive): Consecration has a chance to inspire nearby allies within the effect, increasing their highest secondary stat by X% for X seconds. Sort of a "mass Seraphim", but limited to one stat.

    Some of these are pie in the sky, but I don't mind sacrificing mobility at the reward of cooler abilities and better utility.
    • I don't like Resolve at all, it's functionally redundant with both wings and bubble. They want to cull buttons not create more.
    • Divine Shield giving a nice party wide shield would be cool for M+. Nothing special or fancy, but I dig it.
    • Rebuke is our interrupt, or are you just trying to create a talent with the same name? I don't think it's something we need. It's not really useful utility except in super niche situations, one that bubble taunt already accomplishes.
    • Double LoH isn't the worst idea I've ever heard, but it's probably not THAT useful. I can see some random times where everyone is low on health in a M+, and being able to instantly heal myself and say the healer has value. I don't hate it.
    • Inspiration as a concept is fine but tying it to throughput, especially others is bad design. I'd much rather see the concept just be auras, give us a few different utility options, but bake any throughput into the aura as default.

    All in all I don't think these are great.

  14. #54
    Might be a bit fancy but I don't think it's that bad, they could always just give us 10% stamina instead like every other melee. So it would probably have to be 20% like dks to stand out.

  15. #55
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    Personally I dont see how mobility is an issue for paladins. We have a 100% boost for 4 (iirc) seconds with 2 charges on a 45 sec recharge if specced fully into the mobility upgrades. That's strong. May not be rogue strong, but we are armored knights not agile fighters.

    Having the boost on judgement would be nice for on-call movement mid fight but you should have the horse for that by rights.
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  16. #56
    What are you muppets smoking? Ret has plenty of mobility, AND defensives.

    Mobility wise Blessing of Freedom is a row 1 ability with a 25 sec cooldown. It has like a 30% uptime. Which is great. Not only that you have Divine Steed. While it is short, it only has a 45-sec cooldown, but you can get two charges of double movement speed. There are also multiple abilities you can take to slow targets either through Consecrate/Wake of Ashes/Hand of Hindrance... or Consecrate can protect you from being slowed.

    Defensive wise there are plenty of options. BoP, Shield of Vengeance, Bubble, Lay on Hands, ect... There are also tons of talents in the tree that directly benefit or provide healing sustainability. Judgement of Light, Seal of Clarity, Golden Path, Selfless healer...

    If you are blindly following some cookie cutter build, without actually reading and understanding your talent tree gtfo of here. Read your tree, understand what it says, and learn when to use the variable tools at the appropriate time.

  17. #57
    Ret does insane DPS. It's the rest of their toolkit that is the issue.

    Anyone saying Ret DPS is bad is retarded. Really no other words for that person.

    https://raid.subcreation.net/vault-eranog.html

    Literally one of the best DPS classes on 2 of the raid encounters, beating out other crazy melee dps like UHDK or Rogue

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by mst3kfan View Post

    Defensive wise there are plenty of options. BoP, Shield of Vengeance, Bubble, Lay on Hands, ect... There are also tons of talents in the tree that directly benefit or provide healing sustainability. Judgement of Light, Seal of Clarity, Golden Path, Selfless healer...
    .
    None of that stuff is as good as the top melee (aka leather melee) is the big issue

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by mst3kfan View Post
    What are you muppets smoking? Ret has plenty of mobility, AND defensives.

    Mobility wise Blessing of Freedom is a row 1 ability with a 25 sec cooldown. It has like a 30% uptime. Which is great. Not only that you have Divine Steed. While it is short, it only has a 45-sec cooldown, but you can get two charges of double movement speed. There are also multiple abilities you can take to slow targets either through Consecrate/Wake of Ashes/Hand of Hindrance... or Consecrate can protect you from being slowed.

    Defensive wise there are plenty of options. BoP, Shield of Vengeance, Bubble, Lay on Hands, ect... There are also tons of talents in the tree that directly benefit or provide healing sustainability. Judgement of Light, Seal of Clarity, Golden Path, Selfless healer...

    If you are blindly following some cookie cutter build, without actually reading and understanding your talent tree gtfo of here. Read your tree, understand what it says, and learn when to use the variable tools at the appropriate time.
    1. Blessing of Freedom is USELESS for PVE because you'd have to cast it AFTER divine steed which then that loses massive amounts of speed from the steed.

    2. Divine steed is on GCD(global cool down) list, NONE of the other melee movement abilties are on the GCD.

    3. Again, not even worth noting for PVE, from wake/consec/HoH .

    Defensives.
    Lay on Hands is not a defensive, its a heal yeah it's a massive heal, but it's sure as hell aint a defensive, again the problem is that we get smacked and we fall over, BOP is phyisical, unless your getting struck by the boss it's pretty crap over all, SoV is crap, it is literally crap, shields you for sod all, the Only damn reason people even spec into it, is because of the damage you get from it. Bubble.. oh great our ONE shining thing, guess what, it can be taken away from us so damn easy, especilly in PVP, spellsteal gone, warrior throwing their damn axe at us? gone.

    compare what we have to say, Rogues. 15% leach, 10% movement FLAT + the rogues sprint and other abitlies like teleport behind your target every 30 seconds.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by mst3kfan View Post
    What are you muppets smoking? Ret has plenty of mobility, AND defensives.

    Mobility wise Blessing of Freedom is a row 1 ability with a 25 sec cooldown. It has like a 30% uptime. Which is great. Not only that you have Divine Steed. While it is short, it only has a 45-sec cooldown, but you can get two charges of double movement speed. There are also multiple abilities you can take to slow targets either through Consecrate/Wake of Ashes/Hand of Hindrance... or Consecrate can protect you from being slowed.

    Defensive wise there are plenty of options. BoP, Shield of Vengeance, Bubble, Lay on Hands, ect... There are also tons of talents in the tree that directly benefit or provide healing sustainability. Judgement of Light, Seal of Clarity, Golden Path, Selfless healer...

    If you are blindly following some cookie cutter build, without actually reading and understanding your talent tree gtfo of here. Read your tree, understand what it says, and learn when to use the variable tools at the appropriate time.
    Complete amateur comment. You are just listing and isolating abilities without reviewing them in the proper context of comparing them to equivalents of other melee classes, the competition. All power is relative. You're not even attempting comparing powerlevel because you're either ignorant of that or because you know exactly what the outcome would be and you're trolling.

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