Is the state of Retribution Paladin really that bad?

[Thundering]

The current downtime is not due to us having very few buttons.... If anything, ret has too many buttons. Having a rotation with a lot of buttons can be fun but it really depends on the context of the situation and the fight.
The downtime atm stems from having way too much build up that spends our HoPo until we can start doing damage, then you have like 15 seconds where your rotation feels perfect and then all the buildup dies and we cannot keep up the HoPo generation needed to feel like an active rotation until our build up buttons are back.

The solution (which they seem to be doing) is to instead remove or reduce this tremendous build up and just have the rotation be more active but with fewer buttons so you dont have this 15 second window where you feel amazing but rather feel nice throughout the entirety of a fight.

The solution does not seem to work i still end up in 1007 with alot of boring downtime...... and too be fair the tree has alot less options now you bascily go CS judgement and you will most likely make cs your auto attack, or you go Boj and judgement and both of them have alot of downtime.

[Wrecktangle]

The other changes are not improvements since all they do is lead to a more boring gameplay with less things to track and buttons to press......and if you want more dps then that could been fixed before as well.... Like the removal of exorcism and making crusader strike an auto attack....

See here's the issue. You're arguing from a subjective and emotional state, rather than objective and logical like I asked you to. You dismiss improvements because they lead to "more boring" gameplay. That is your opinion, not a fact.

You call the currently tree bloated??, we do have alot of downtime currently and its even worse on the ptr......
The lack of cleave has been fixed by adding the cleave to crusader strike and judgement, its a very boring solution we need more buttons to press not less....

I did not call the current tree bloated. I said that the devs want to reduce button bloat, which is a legitimate issue and one frequently complained about by other Rets, myself included and they are addressing it. I have no idea how you have downtime. I'm GCD locked in retail and PTR. I do not want more buttons, I want meaningful buttons.

Its fairly clearly we play in very different manners and i wont call you clueless since i think that is just disrespectful, but if you like the 1007 then sure like it.
All it does to me is make it very clear that dropping my paladin that has been my main since vanilla for a warrior is the right thing to do, i think paladins have been bad for way too long.

Paladins, Ret specifically, have been bad for a long time. That's a fact backed up by data, but like you I also have been playing Ret since Vanilla even when it was a meme. I've been through the ups and downs. I called you clueless because you're crying about button culling, without acknowledging all the other weaknesses and interim solutions that have been suggested/implemented. It doesn't show confidence that you're actually qualified to make reasonable assessments about the spec. It's not the OF so I can't look at your profile, but it screams some 1100 IO 4/8 heroic raider viewpoint.

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The solution does not seem to work i still end up in 1007 with alot of boring downtime...... and too be fair the tree has alot less options now you bascily go CS judgement and you will most likely make cs your auto attack, or you go Boj and judgement and both of them have alot of downtime.

Check your build. Go look up the HolyStrike one. I have so much HP generation and charges I am GCD locked on PTR too.

[minteK917]

I like that hes rerolling warrior... with even less buttons lol. Are we sure he actually plays this game?

[Kalisandra]

I did not call the current tree bloated. I said that the devs want to reduce button bloat, which is a legitimate issue and one frequently complained about by other Rets, myself included and they are addressing it. I have no idea how you have downtime. I'm GCD locked in retail and PTR. I do not want more buttons, I want meaningful buttons.

I find on retail that most of the time I'm GCD locked, with competing cycles (Holy Power build/Spend vs Consecration+Exo in AoE, and so on). However, every so often there are open GCDs where there is simply no DPS button to press. So for all the fuss and bother of all those buttons, there are still times when I can't do a damned thing. It's the worst of both worlds.

Worse, without all the cooldowns stacked there isn't even a whole lot of damage going out. It's just depressing. I have hopes for the changes - so far they look promising.

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I like that hes rerolling warrior... with even less buttons lol. Are we sure he actually plays this game?

I can see why - for all that's it's not all that is was on the beta, the Warrior is pretty well designed. OTOH, like I said, the Ret changes show promise so I think he's being premature, but each to their own.

[minteK917]

I find on retail that most of the time I'm GCD locked, with competing cycles (Holy Power build/Spend vs Consecration+Exo in AoE, and so on). However, every so often there are open GCDs where there is simply no DPS button to press. So for all the fuss and bother of all those buttons, there are still times when I can't do a damned thing. It's the worst of both worlds.

Worse, without all the cooldowns stacked there isn't even a whole lot of damage going out. It's just depressing. I have hopes for the changes - so far they look promising.

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I can see why - for all that's it's not all that is was on the beta, the Warrior is pretty well designed. OTOH, like I said, the Ret changes show promise so I think he's being premature, but each to their own.

oh I play warrior right now, well designed. Also less useless buttons. I just think its funny hes gona reroll warrior because ret is losing bottons lol. You are rerolling to what you are complaining about?

[Gracin]

oh I play warrior right now, well designed. Also less useless buttons. I just think its funny hes gona reroll warrior because ret is losing bottons lol. You are rerolling to what you are complaining about?

I swapped to warrior a few weeks into DF because I couldn't take the retail state of Ret, and it is less buttons but to me a more rewarding gameplay.

But yea, to complain about losing buttons and then moving to a class that mainlines the same 3 buttons 90%+ of a single target fight is laughable.

[Gorsameth]

Not even single target, for Fury the rotation doesn't even really change for multi target fights aside from adding the occasional whirlwind to keep the cleave buff up.

[Thundering]

I like that hes rerolling warrior... with even less buttons lol. Are we sure he actually plays this game?

oh lets see,

Slam
Mortal strike
Overpower
Execute
Rend
ww
Cleave
Thunderclap
Col Smash
Thunde roar
Bladestorm
Storm bolt
Heroic throw
wrecking throw
Impending victory
Hamstering

Sweeping strikes
Avatar
18 abilities and good mobility..
-----------
Paladin
Crusader strike
Judgement
Consecration
Divine toll
Divine storm
Wake of Ashes
Final verdict/Execution sentence
Hammer of wrath

9 abilities..........

Avenging Wrath

8 abilitets and bad mobility.

if we go live we can at least add exorcism as well and Hand of hindrance does no damage just added it since i felt i had too.
so 10 woohooo-_-
but since they are removed we will have 8.

Yes Yes less buttons.......

[Nymrohd]

Lol dude you list
Storm bolt
Heroic throw
wrecking throw
Impending victory
Hamstering
for warrior, by that token you need to list all the similar utilities on the Paladin side.

[sam86]

for me who don't play competitive as ret (just solo, i never liked idea of retardin in raid, prefer tank/heal way more) no, i love it

[Sorrior]

Your focusing on the wrong part of that post.
Play a ~380 Ret and any other melee class/spec at ~380 ilvl and the ret takes noticeably more damage then others. Especially when your taking on an elite you can really feel just how squishy Ret is.

This. Hell my mains an ENH shaman known in the past for being super squishy..it's survivability is far superior to my rets and THAT is saying something imo.

[Thundering]

Lol dude you list
Storm bolt
Heroic throw
wrecking throw
Impending victory
Hamstering
for warrior, by that token you need to list all the similar utilities on the Paladin side.

Thats kinda the thing they are already listed..........

Hamstering= hand of hind (but it does no damage should not be on the list for that reason it does no DAMAGE)
Heroic throw= Exorcism (being removed, also already listed)
Wrecking throw dont have any since Exorcism is already taken
Storm bolt= I Guess you want hammer of Justice but guess what it does no damage.......
Impeding victory paladins dont have anything like it.....

So wow 1 more ability that for the list that does no damage........very usefull....

[kliffharry]

Thats kinda the thing they are already listed..........

Hamstering= hand of hind (but it does no damage should not be on the list for that reason it does no DAMAGE)
Heroic throw= Exorcism (being removed, also already listed)
Wrecking throw dont have any since Exorcism is already taken
Storm bolt= I Guess you want hammer of Justice but guess what it does no damage.......
Impeding victory paladins dont have anything like it.....

So wow 1 more ability that for the list that does no damage........very usefull....

It all comes down to personal opinion and the numbers of possible spells to press does not equal harder/more fun. I play both Arms and Ret in mythic raiding and high keys, and even though Ret isn't putting out the same numbers as Arms, I still enjoy it more cause it feels more hectic and interesting when everything is proccing and you gotta make quick decisions.

Again, all down to personal opinion.

You also don't use Slam at all at the moment as it deals too little damage to be worth a GCD, as well as you just use Thunder Clap to keep your Rend up.

Should also list all the possible buttons for each class as Warriors do have some real fun interactions with Spell Reflect, but Ret has so much utility that can really make a difference in many situations. A spell doesn't have to do damage to be counted.

[Azharok]

...
Storm bolt
Heroic throw
wrecking throw
Impending victory
Hamstering
...

All those abilities are situational at best, also you don't rend EVER since you build it into TC and use that instead.

Your post seems a little disingeneous tbh. You glanced over loads of abilities paladins have and somehow hamstring makes the list for warriors (which I'd argue is never used in any PVE environement), same for Heroic and Wrecking throw. Yet HoF doesn't make the list for paladins and I can see it being more useful in a few dungeons (CoS / SBG / AV).

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Thats kinda the thing they are already listed..........

Hamstering= hand of hind (but it does no damage should not be on the list for that reason it does no DAMAGE)
Heroic throw= Exorcism (being removed, also already listed)
Wrecking throw dont have any since Exorcism is already taken
Storm bolt= I Guess you want hammer of Justice but guess what it does no damage.......
Impeding victory paladins dont have anything like it.....

So wow 1 more ability that for the list that does no damage........very usefull....

Paladins also have CR / BoP / WotG / Auras. Like I get it, you like warriors more, but this is pretty biased.

[Thundering]

It all comes down to personal opinion and the numbers of possible spells to press does not equal harder/more fun. I play both Arms and Ret in mythic raiding and high keys, and even though Ret isn't putting out the same numbers as Arms, I still enjoy it more cause it feels more hectic and interesting when everything is proccing and you gotta make quick decisions.

Again, all down to personal opinion.

You also don't use Slam at all at the moment as it deals too little damage to be worth a GCD, as well as you just use Thunder Clap to keep your Rend up.

Should also list all the possible buttons for each class as Warriors do have some real fun interactions with Spell Reflect, but Ret has so much utility that can really make a difference in many situations. A spell doesn't have to do damage to be counted.

Never said anything about utility, just talking about mobility and damage. Slam is used when you have rage and got nothing better to press, its a filler and its more fun than just waiting.

All those abilities are situational at best, also you don't rend EVER since you build it into TC and use that instead.

Your post seems a little disingeneous tbh. You glanced over loads of abilities paladins have and somehow hamstring makes the list for warriors (which I'd argue is never used in any PVE environement), same for Heroic and Wrecking throw. Yet HoF doesn't make the list for paladins and I can see it being more useful in a few dungeons (CoS / SBG / AV).

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Paladins also have CR / BoP / WotG / Auras. Like I get it, you like warriors more, but this is pretty biased.

Auras is a nice thing for paladins, but they are more flavor than engaging gameplay, you dont change them all the time. The abilities i skipped over is the ones that is not doing damage....nothing about bias its about how you do damage.

[Soikona]

oh lets see,

Slam
Mortal strike
Overpower
Execute
Rend
ww
Cleave
Thunderclap
Col Smash
Thunde roar
Bladestorm
Storm bolt
Heroic throw
wrecking throw
Impending victory
Hamstering

Sweeping strikes
Avatar
18 abilities and good mobility..
-----------
Paladin
Crusader strike
Judgement
Consecration
Divine toll
Divine storm
Wake of Ashes
Final verdict/Execution sentence
Hammer of wrath

9 abilities..........

Avenging Wrath

8 abilitets and bad mobility.

if we go live we can at least add exorcism as well and Hand of hindrance does no damage just added it since i felt i had too.
so 10 woohooo-_-
but since they are removed we will have 8.

Yes Yes less buttons.......

As wrong as this is, I am just going to move past it. But why is less a bad thing? More buttons does not make something harder. Dark Souls is considering a difficult game, but it doesn’t have a lot of buttons….

I am assuming this is your argument anyway, it tends to be with the “mOrE BuTtOnS” crowd.

[kliffharry]

Never said anything about utility, just talking about mobility and damage. Slam is used when you have rage and got nothing better to press, its a filler and its more fun than just waiting.

This is simply not true as Thunder Clap, Whirlwind and even Ignore Pain takes priority over Slam, as they all use more rage meaning higher Tactician proc chance and more rage spent during Test of Might window. There is a tiny possibility of maybe using Slam once or twice during an entire encounter because everything can be on CD during lust, but it's not seen as a button worth pressing.

[Azharok]

Never said anything about utility, just talking about mobility and damage. Slam is used when you have rage and got nothing better to press, its a filler and its more fun than just waiting.




Auras is a nice thing for paladins, but they are more flavor than engaging gameplay, you dont change them all the time. The abilities i skipped over is the ones that is not doing damage....nothing about bias its about how you do damage.

Because Impeding victory, heroic/wrecking throw and hamstring are in the rotation ?

[Thundering]

This is simply not true as Thunder Clap, Whirlwind and even Ignore Pain takes priority over Slam, as they all use more rage meaning higher Tactician proc chance and more rage spent during Test of Might window. There is a tiny possibility of maybe using Slam once or twice during an entire encounter because everything can be on CD during lust, but it's not seen as a button worth pressing.

yeah sure it still does not change the fact its a filler.

Because Impeding victory, heroic/wrecking throw and hamstring are in the rotation ?

They are a part of your rotation for situations in the open world and doing trash. Weird right you spend more time in the open world and killing trash dungeons than you do bosses and raids? And being able to do something when you cant reach your enemy for whatever reason is more fun than just standing there.

[Delever]

yeah sure it still does not change the fact its a filler.



They are a part of your rotation for situations in the open world and doing trash. Weird right you spend more time in the open world and killing trash dungeons than you do bosses and raids? And being able to do something when you cant reach your enemy for whatever reason is more fun than just standing there.

Yeah ok the dude is trolling.