Raid Buff Cooldown Resets and Terrain Exploits in Ulduar

[Relapses]

it's quite impressive that you did this in OG Ulduar when that feature was added several years after wotlk

I remember doing some weird shit to cheese trash. Maybe it wasn't this. Maybe it's the Mandalorian Effect or whatever the fuck. /shrug

[Dristereau]

The way it's phrased makes me think some groups were just having on DPS sat at a boss and resetting repeatedly so it was practically perma hero which seems OTT, especially with this currently being a highlight/race period for Classic. I think using Hero once or twice isn't that bad but it's a question of when it becomes ridiculous. Only similar thing I've really seen/involved with on live was Tarragrue in SOD, we'd hero each Anima add and reset the boss between groups to make it a bit faster.

Terrain exploits completely understand. However from their POV I wonder why they haven't fixed things from PTR/live for their collision meshes, unless these are new ones. Glad they clarified their stance either way.

[A-Maxy]

terrain skips aside why do they care about resetting hero for trash pulls. My guild used to do this on the trash going toward the first boss in the ashara legion raid. We used it alot when people were late and were trying to farm some BoE's. We would jsut have permeant hero. I see nothing wrong with this. All it does is save time and it doesnt exploit anything. The trash isnt a part of the core raid. Its just flavor to fill in the gaps between bosses.

Bad move blizz. Waste of time and money.

Trash mobs are in a raid, therefore they are part of the raid. Exploiting or clever usage of game mechanics is a different discussion. I think calling it an exploit is a bit much, it's clear that this is not how those buffs are supposed to be used. Doing trash is part of the raiding experience. Good way to test someone's IQ as well beforehand

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People that are annoyed by this need to relax. Calling it an exploit is a bit much, but it's over the line of clever usage of game mechanics. There's a reason Heroism/Bloodlust have cooldowns, because they very powerful buffs. Yes, it's a smart way of thinking to use those buffs, but everyone knows that that is not the intended use of them.

No one should be banned or suspended or whatever for doing this, but Blizzard has all the right to make sure this doesn't happen. Trash is part of the raiding experience. If you can't accept that, make a post on the forums to request a special hardcore mode where it's only boss fights in a raid that have increased health and damage and some other added tactics. Sort of a mythic+ raid without trash.

[Qnubi]

The way it's phrased makes me think some groups were just having on DPS sat at a boss and resetting repeatedly so it was practically perma hero which seems OTT, especially with this currently being a highlight/race period for Classic. I think using Hero once or twice isn't that bad but it's a question of when it becomes ridiculous. Only similar thing I've really seen/involved with on live was Tarragrue in SOD, we'd hero each Anima add and reset the boss between groups to make it a bit faster.

Terrain exploits completely understand. However from their POV I wonder why they haven't fixed things from PTR/live for their collision meshes, unless these are new ones. Glad they clarified their stance either way.

They probably have fixed some, but as always, new exploits will be found either way. So they made a pre-emptive statement to rule out any and all abuses.

[h4rr0d]

and the bloodlust removes the difficulty of half if not most of the trash.

Yeah, because clearing trash is such a fun and challenging gameplay.

BL debuff really didn’t clear in og WOTLK? Does that mean we waited around for the debuff to drop, or that we simply had some attempts without hero at all? Damn…

[ONCHEhap]

BL debuff really didn’t clear in og WOTLK? Does that mean we waited around for the debuff to drop, or that we simply had some attempts without hero at all? Damn…

Both are correct. During farm you'd often just kill bosses without BL, and during progress, you'd kinda use the non-BL attempts to practice the boss, or sometimes you'd use the BL debuff as a break timer too

[Vampyrr]

The main difference is that on retail you have to interact with the boss to loose your debuff while in classic you do not. Only the boss needs to reset and the debuff is cleared from the whole raid.

Its also not original to classic for the debuff to reset. Blizzard gave the #nochances crowd a qol update which they started to abuse. Its only fair they step in.

While I agree it wasnt in WoTLK you do NOT need to interact with the boss to reset hero in Retail. That part was removed in BFA I think? I know in Shadowlands in CN boe farm we would constantly reset Hero with bosses where only 1 person engaged boss.

[Jasper Kazai]

Terrain skip reminds me of when, back in the day, we had wiped on Freya and were running back, I blinked at the threshold of her room and fell through the ground into Yogg-Saron's brain room. I wonder if they ever fixed that.

[valax]

How about ppl at blizzard start looking at dungeons instead? Bots exploiting terrain and stuff by the tens of thousands

[h4rr0d]

While I agree it wasnt in WoTLK you do NOT need to interact with the boss to reset hero in Retail. That part was removed in BFA I think? I know in Shadowlands in CN boe farm we would constantly reset Hero with bosses where only 1 person engaged boss.

Really? Good to know. Would have saved me several deaths due to botched reset attempt. Thanks.

[LordVargK]

Time is an intended obstacle, encounters aren't designed with permanent BL in mind and being the reset bitch is bad gameplay regardless of if you find it fun.
Anything that screws with the integrity of gameplay and obstacles should be fixed.

This trick can't be used in encounters though... Or do you honestly see trash as an encounter?

[bloodmoth13]

This trick can't be used in encounters though... Or do you honestly see trash as an encounter?

Yes, it literally is an encounter, how is that even a question? Why even have it in the game at that point? why not just a boss rush raid.

[LordVargK]

Yes, it literally is an encounter, how is that even a question? Why even have it in the game at that point? why not just a boss rush raid.

I mean... It's called trash for a reason, don't you think?

[bloodmoth13]

I mean... It's called trash for a reason, don't you think?

doesnt mean its not there for a reason and i wouldnt change anything about it. Do you really think raids would be better without it? it would diminish the experience, and clipping through terrain to avoid content is clearly an exploit that needs to be fixed.

[Vampyrr]

doesnt mean its not there for a reason and i wouldnt change anything about it. Do you really think raids would be better without it? it would diminish the experience, and clipping through terrain to avoid content is clearly an exploit that needs to be fixed.

Trash is one of the most hated and contested parts of any raid. It is bloat designed to waste time and many implementations are quite cancerous and not fun at all. If it was enjoyable people would not do everything possible to skip it or shorten it.

Clipping terrain yes needs to go as that physically breaks the world. However, hero resets are fine and should be left alone.

[Tojara]

Trash is one of the most hated and contested parts of any raid. It is bloat designed to waste time and many implementations are quite cancerous and not fun at all. If it was enjoyable people would not do everything possible to skip it or shorten it.

Clipping terrain yes needs to go as that physically breaks the world. However, hero resets are fine and should be left alone.

Yeah, I don't necessarily agree. When trash is paced correctly and isn't overrun with annoying mechanics it's fine. For years they've been designing trash leading up to a boss with 'some' of the boss mechanics that will be present, and IMO that's fairly good design that is oftentimes overlooked. Some of the most hated raids at least according to community consensus are raids like ToGC, which ironically has zero trash.

Trash also sets atmosphere to an actual dungeon/raid. Entering a stronghold with zero minions effectively slaughters atmosphere to me. While I love the actual encounters in FF14, the raid environments are just 95% giant square rooms with a skybox in the background. Not nuking your consumables and respawning in front of the boss is an actual good part of FF14 however.

Again pacing, atmosphere and if the trash respawns are all key factors to whether it's properly designed or not. How trash respawned in some raids in TBC or a lot of Vanilla was awful (looking at you MC, SSC and BWL third boss). They learned their lesson later on by having trash that doesn't respawn and mostly having proper pacing.

Trash is fine IMO. They should however realize that run backs are the true tedium, especially for guilds that are progressing (whether that be Classic, or Retail). It serves no real actual purpose aside from annoyance. In addition to that, things like having the ability to skip around the dungeon when certain conditions are met (like in most Retail raids) are something to aspire to long term. Especially for those with limited time and just want to target farm certain sections, or progress on certain bosses.

[bloodmoth13]

Trash is one of the most hated and contested parts of any raid. It is bloat designed to waste time and many implementations are quite cancerous and not fun at all. If it was enjoyable people would not do everything possible to skip it or shorten it.

Clipping terrain yes needs to go as that physically breaks the world. However, hero resets are fine and should be left alone.

Caveman take.
Players will shorten everything in order to get to rewards, you have zero concept of game design and your opinion should be completely disregarded but I'll bite anyway.

Game designers job is to create a reward for the player to chase and put a challenge between them and the reward, the players job is to optimize the shortest path to the reward.
Players have fun overcoming challenges, easy or hard.
Beyond that the game is more than a boss fight SIM, it's an experience, trash leading up to a fight tells story and creates atmosphere. It also gives players something to practice on before the big fight begins. Removing trash would be nothing but a detriment to the game, reducing it or perhaps making a bypass through an achievement could be fine but it should be standard

[thegoodbroham]

Next patch just hand out loot, maybe ppl will be happy then.

It's funny, because in OG wrath, the next patch with trial of the crusader is when they DID start handing out free loot. And people were not happy of course lol.

[Vampyrr]

Caveman take.
Players will shorten everything in order to get to rewards, you have zero concept of game design and your opinion should be completely disregarded but I'll bite anyway.

Game designers job is to create a reward for the player to chase and put a challenge between them and the reward, the players job is to optimize the shortest path to the reward.
Players have fun overcoming challenges, easy or hard.
Beyond that the game is more than a boss fight SIM, it's an experience, trash leading up to a fight tells story and creates atmosphere. It also gives players something to practice on before the big fight begins. Removing trash would be nothing but a detriment to the game, reducing it or perhaps making a bypass through an achievement could be fine but it should be standard

Awful take and sounds like it is your opinion that belongs in the trash. If what you said was true then it wouldn't be allowed in current content yet in retail hero resets for trash are a common occurrence. It doesn't let you skip the trash but lets you get through it faster and see bigger numbers which makes it more fun for the players. Trash is trash it itself is a tedium designed to slow down the pace of dungeons with a small bit of flavor. Certain packs are kinda fun but most is just recycled nonsense. There is little joy or reward for them, the moment they do have one (ie BoE's) and people farm them for it it gets nerfed or removed. Not even asking for any of it to be removed although it would be nice but letting people have a 25% haste buff to get through it is not a huge issue.

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Not even saying remove it but that would be nice. Just saying letting people have hero to use on trash packs to get through it faster or pull more at once is a fun thing and lets players get big numbers. We already do this on retail so being able to do it on Classic should also be allowed. A 25% haste buff doesn't ruin immersion or theme of the raid. And ToGC was not hated do to lack of trash but because you do not move anywhere until last boss so you look at the same scenery AND you had to run it 4 times a week due to how loot worked, 10N/H and 25N/H. Run the same raid 4 times per character and see how much fun it is regardless of what raid. If it had trash AS WELL? Jesus I'd hate to think about it.

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It's funny, because in OG wrath, the next patch with trial of the crusader is when they DID start handing out free loot. And people were not happy of course lol.

I do not recall any free handouts in ToGC. It was actually a harder time for raiding due to running it 4 times per character and people struggled with the 5man dungeon mechanics.