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  1. #461
    I think a little bit, yes, but IMO it hasn't taken away from my experience or enjoyment. It's still unbelievable how long WoW has stuck around - remember when everyone was saying it would survive another year or some other MMO would overtake it?
    LFGdating
    Currently playing: WoW, D3, SC2, and wait for it ... Red Alert 3. (And possibly some Goldeneye here or there.)

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by anakin57 View Post
    I think a little bit, yes, but IMO it hasn't taken away from my experience or enjoyment. It's still unbelievable how long WoW has stuck around - remember when everyone was saying it would survive another year or some other MMO would overtake it?
    To be fair, people say this about every MMO lol.
    I've played FFXIV since ARR and people have said this every expansion too that it was dying, and in reality FFXIV is the only MMO that has been consistently growing with every expansion to this day.
    So even when a game is growing and getting more and more popular people will still say it's '' dying ''.

    WoW isn't going anywhere.
    One thing I do think is quite problematic for WoW tho is attracting new players.
    I really wonder how many WoW players are actually new and how many are just returning/ old players who always play regardless.
    Stagnation might actually be a big problem.

  3. #463
    Merely a Setback Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shane brannigan View Post
    Wow has definitely been sanitised.

    I saw Spiketooth <slave driver> the other day and I was like "wow, no way blizzard would make a Player aligned NPC today that has slaves".
    Then I blinked three times and though "remember when people could separate fiction from reality". So I blew him a kiss, and did his quests.
    Lady Vashj was a main character in the necro lords who ran a whole slave mine.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Lady Vashj was a main character in the necro lords who ran a whole slave mine.
    I do not remember this but I'm willing to believe you because I've blocked 80% of shadowlands out of my memory.

  5. #465
    What the hell. It's not family friendly. The game is designed by people who I would not feel safe leaving kids around.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post
    Dragons could have been a great source for storytelling by creating powerful antagonists. The dark shadows ever looming in the background pulling the strings of their underlings who sew the seeds of discord around the world in their name.
    I really like that. It's also a major part of Warcraft 2 and WoW Classic - Deathwing as Daval Prestor, and the entire Alliance / Human leveling campaign with Onyxia... so if it was done again everyone would cry "Wowowowoowow Onyxia 3.0!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post
    A really cool idea for dragons came from a game called Breath of Fire IV. In that game as well as it's predecessors but especially in IV, Dragons were like forces of nature. Thier very existence while awakened was so powerful that the world around them and the destiny of all those in their immediate presence would become forever changed merely by the strength of the dragons life-force. There were so many deep existential story elements to this game that even today whenever I replay it I often take time to ponder some of their meaning.
    This is a primary, foundational plotline of Final Fantasy XIV, WoW's direct competitor. The Primals are forces of nature that when awakened have often disastrous effects on nature and the surrounding populace. Those in their presence were in danger of being "tempered", or otherwise enslaved by their power of their life-force or aether.

    I agree that the dragons could be cooler, but I think the damage done was in Cataclysm. That said, I'm ok with the game not revolving around this massive, oppressive force and giving me space to exist, explore, and make new stories.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    Darrowshire: darkshore? a whole zone thats like darrowshire.
    Stopped reading at this nonsense. Was your thought process, that the naming scheme was similar so the stories must be too? Give me a break.

    Also you are blind as a bat regarding the gnolls. I'm not going to discuss this with someone who's eyes don't work.
    Last edited by Wewlad; 2023-03-18 at 07:18 PM.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Wewlad View Post
    Stopped reading at this nonsense. Was your thought process, that the naming scheme was similar so the stories must be too? Give me a break.

    Also you are blind as a bat regarding the gnolls. I'm not going to discuss this with someone who's eyes don't work.
    Again, agression only proves my feeling that you are just hating to hate.

    darrowshire in a nutshell:
    ( from wowpedia)
    Darrowshire is a village located in the southern part of what is now the Eastern Plaguelands. During the Third War, Darrowshire came under attack by a Scourge force led by the ghoul lord Horgus the Ravager and the death knight Marduk Blackpool. Though the defenders of Darrowshire made headway at first, the defenders were eventually slaughtered.
    so....lets take a look at darkshore...a zone attacked by the horde...lead by a UNDEAD boss. And while people in darkshore fought...they still lost and death camps ( ingame lore btw) came to being......
    Like darkshore is just a zone wide version of darrowshire.
    Its pretty much the same story. ( is t weak to copy the story.....yeah)

    as for the gnolls....i linked you a whole gallery worth of gnoll pictures from a reputable site like wowpedia.
    Hell the gnolls portrait from the original warcraft 3 looks more cartoony then what we have now.
    And trading card game gnolls also look like the gnolls now...trading card game is a very old product

    So again i have proven. And you saying i am blind because i do not follow your opinion so you do not discuss is weak. Even more so, when i give proof ( galary wowpedia). That gnolls always have this astehtic.

    So again, it says more about your opinion . And how it might want something more dark. Then that WoW has gone from Hardcore 18+ game to carebears.

    I have proven my points with evidence. You have not. You just shout because you are "losing" the "discussion". Come with proof. counter my points with fact. I dare you.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    Again, agression only proves my feeling that you are just hating to hate.

    darrowshire in a nutshell:
    ( from wowpedia)

    so....lets take a look at darkshore...a zone attacked by the horde...lead by a UNDEAD boss. And while people in darkshore fought...they still lost and death camps ( ingame lore btw) came to being......
    Like darkshore is just a zone wide version of darrowshire.
    Its pretty much the same story. ( is t weak to copy the story.....yeah)

    as for the gnolls....i linked you a whole gallery worth of gnoll pictures from a reputable site like wowpedia.
    Hell the gnolls portrait from the original warcraft 3 looks more cartoony then what we have now.
    And trading card game gnolls also look like the gnolls now...trading card game is a very old product

    So again i have proven. And you saying i am blind because i do not follow your opinion so you do not discuss is weak. Even more so, when i give proof ( galary wowpedia). That gnolls always have this astehtic.

    So again, it says more about your opinion . And how it might want something more dark. Then that WoW has gone from Hardcore 18+ game to carebears.

    I have proven my points with evidence. You have not. You just shout because you are "losing" the "discussion". Come with proof. counter my points with fact. I dare you.
    Clearly you haven't done the Darrowshire questline since you're just posting a Wowpedia dump and think because Darkshore has undead that it must be the same. The tale of Darrowshire is harrowing as you begin it by meeting the ghost of the girl Pamela Redpath and learn of the betrayal that led to Darrowshire's downfall by Marduk Blackpool who corrupted the spirit of Joseph Redpath whom you are forced to destroy to at least redeem the memory of Darrowshire if nothing else.

    Problem with your attempt to equate the Darkshore with Darrowshire is it lacks any real personal storytelling for those darker elements. Most of the focus is on the Tyrande Night Warrior nonsense and Malfurion being stuck in bear form, then they kick out Nathanos and the Horde out like nothing (the cinematic is some Marvel-level schlock). There isn't the bittersweet release of Joseph Redpath's spirit, the vengeance visited upon Marduk Blackpook in Scholomance, it's empty. Even the eventual demise of Nathanos is more of a relief of him being an annoying SOB than anything.

    I never said that WoW was a "hardcore 18+ game", you misconstrue, I said it had a measured amount of grit to balance out the cartoony elements. Unfortunately nu-Blizzard does not know how to balance these elements, so it's always jarring to go from mass genocide to superhero-esque antics as is all too common nowadays, and hence why it doesn't work.

    I'm not going to argue the gnoll aesthetic point since we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I only responded despite your posts being annoying to read (hot damn please stop writing like a teenager) to clear the other points up.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Wewlad View Post
    Unfortunately nu-Blizzard does not know how to balance these elements, so it's always jarring to go from mass genocide to superhero-esque antics as is all too common nowadays, and hence why it doesn't work.
    "nu-Blizzard..."

    I like it.

  11. #471
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    "nu-Blizzard..."

    I like it.
    Old Blizzard: Human Arthas
    Nu-Blizzard: Anduin

    Old Blizzard: LK Arthas
    Nu-Blizzard: BfA/SL Sylvanas

    Old Blizzard: Culling of Stratholme
    Nu-Blizzard: Teldrassil

    These nu-Blizzard folks are in a special place, where they on one hand, cannot let the old lore go; and on the other, they butcher it like npnp.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Wewlad View Post
    Clearly you haven't done the Darrowshire questline since you're just posting a Wowpedia dump and think because Darkshore has undead that it must be the same. The tale of Darrowshire is harrowing as you begin it by meeting the ghost of the girl Pamela Redpath and learn of the betrayal that led to Darrowshire's downfall by Marduk Blackpool who corrupted the spirit of Joseph Redpath whom you are forced to destroy to at least redeem the memory of Darrowshire if nothing else.

    Problem with your attempt to equate the Darkshore with Darrowshire is it lacks any real personal storytelling for those darker elements. Most of the focus is on the Tyrande Night Warrior nonsense and Malfurion being stuck in bear form, then they kick out Nathanos and the Horde out like nothing (the cinematic is some Marvel-level schlock). There isn't the bittersweet release of Joseph Redpath's spirit, the vengeance visited upon Marduk Blackpook in Scholomance, it's empty. Even the eventual demise of Nathanos is more of a relief of him being an annoying SOB than anything.

    I never said that WoW was a "hardcore 18+ game", you misconstrue, I said it had a measured amount of grit to balance out the cartoony elements. Unfortunately nu-Blizzard does not know how to balance these elements, so it's always jarring to go from mass genocide to superhero-esque antics as is all too common nowadays, and hence why it doesn't work.

    I'm not going to argue the gnoll aesthetic point since we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I only responded despite your posts being annoying to read (hot damn please stop writing like a teenager) to clear the other points up.
    a response to a 10 day old post...ill bite :P

    Nope i do not think it. But its burden of proof. That bad shit happens. But in the end, they where killed by undead. And betrayed. And while not a 1 to 1 comparison. It was there to show that bad things. Not kiddy rainbow mounts stuff still happens in WoW. ( side not...a freaking rainbow dasher mount would be cool).

    My whole point is just to show with examples that might not be apples to apples ,but it is still fruit. Both are horrible and bad things still happen ingame. While most of the post in this thread act like its just rainbows, friendly, cartoony etc.

    First time i hear you say grit. And i still disagree with you on that "new" point. the balance is still there. But people do not want to see it. Because all they can see is trigger words, or things they go after like a red bull.
    I do agree with the jaring stuff in some of the story. But thats to be expected from 20 years of story telling. If they do not do it. It would be: the story is boring. nothing really cool happens.
    And blizzard also have stated before. Expansions like this , who might be less dark. Are there as a palate cleanser. Otherwise it would go dark,then dark real fast.

    And on the gnoll....nothing to disagree about.
    first gnoll pictures show it as a more loonytunes style hyena
    2nd because of graphics shows it a bit more gritty.
    3th one ( modern) is a mix of the 2.
    So nothing to argue about.

    and right like a teenager....always shows how well your discussion is going...when trying to insult, throw names etc on other people.

    first off not a main english speaker, 2nd a very heavy dyslectic, 3th because these discussion tend to be goalpost moving stuff, adding new stuff. Not accepting context or truths. It boils down to these types of texts.


    In the end, your point is: its to cartoony, to savespace etc.

    my point is: its shown enough both storywise and look wise, and death onscreen wise its not. Child killing, mass murder, death camps etc etc all still happen in the quests. You still see corpses and evil old god stuff. Not 2 expansions ago we where fighting 1 ( again). I think people like you have changed your opinion ( whitch is perfectly fine) and your taste might have changed. And project your feelings towards modern live onto this game.

    Or in short: you act like this is a art style from diablo 2 to diablo 3 ( what did became more cartoony). while wow is more diablo 2 , to diablo 4.

    And please insulting is not needed.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    a response to a 10 day old post...ill bite :P

    Nope i do not think it. But its burden of proof. That bad shit happens. But in the end, they where killed by undead. And betrayed. And while not a 1 to 1 comparison. It was there to show that bad things. Not kiddy rainbow mounts stuff still happens in WoW. ( side not...a freaking rainbow dasher mount would be cool).

    My whole point is just to show with examples that might not be apples to apples ,but it is still fruit. Both are horrible and bad things still happen ingame. While most of the post in this thread act like its just rainbows, friendly, cartoony etc.

    First time i hear you say grit. And i still disagree with you on that "new" point. the balance is still there. But people do not want to see it. Because all they can see is trigger words, or things they go after like a red bull.
    I do agree with the jaring stuff in some of the story. But thats to be expected from 20 years of story telling. If they do not do it. It would be: the story is boring. nothing really cool happens.
    And blizzard also have stated before. Expansions like this , who might be less dark. Are there as a palate cleanser. Otherwise it would go dark,then dark real fast.

    And on the gnoll....nothing to disagree about.
    first gnoll pictures show it as a more loonytunes style hyena
    2nd because of graphics shows it a bit more gritty.
    3th one ( modern) is a mix of the 2.
    So nothing to argue about.

    and right like a teenager....always shows how well your discussion is going...when trying to insult, throw names etc on other people.

    first off not a main english speaker, 2nd a very heavy dyslectic, 3th because these discussion tend to be goalpost moving stuff, adding new stuff. Not accepting context or truths. It boils down to these types of texts.


    In the end, your point is: its to cartoony, to savespace etc.

    my point is: its shown enough both storywise and look wise, and death onscreen wise its not. Child killing, mass murder, death camps etc etc all still happen in the quests. You still see corpses and evil old god stuff. Not 2 expansions ago we where fighting 1 ( again). I think people like you have changed your opinion ( whitch is perfectly fine) and your taste might have changed. And project your feelings towards modern live onto this game.

    Or in short: you act like this is a art style from diablo 2 to diablo 3 ( what did became more cartoony). while wow is more diablo 2 , to diablo 4.

    And please insulting is not needed.
    ESL and dyslexia does not account for the constant ellipses (...), that's what I meant by typing like a teenager.

    You did not even respond to my points about how the Darkshore storyline does not stack up with the Darrowshire storyline regarding thematic merit, as I've said just because the stories feature undead or 'bad shit happening' does not make them equivalent. The mood whiplash of BFA's storylines completely shuts down any merit it may have earned with its darker story beats, as I've written.

    I've looked at the gnoll art gallery, and even the Reforged update is more true to form than Dragonflight's take which is saying a lot.

    You whine about a lil' banter, but go on these weird attempts at psychoanalysis, if you'd like me to stop with the banter then cease with that.

  14. #474
    I mean Furries and Rainbow People are developing this game. What do you expect wow to be? No hate here, just straight honest.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by exsanguinate View Post
    I mean Furries and Rainbow People are developing this game. What do you expect wow to be? No hate here, just straight honest.
    Yeah, NGL the voice direction of Sendrax and Selistra was really jarring.
    Did we really need a dragon that sounds like they're going through HRT.

  16. #476
    The overcorrected after SL but frankly with what a pointlessly bleak narrative we've had after tge nelf genocide and everyone running around in Superhell it was probably still the right call

    Though what do I know, i unsubbed in BFA cause of the villainbat
    Twas brillig

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by Wewlad View Post
    ESL and dyslexia does not account for the constant ellipses (...), that's what I meant by typing like a teenager.

    You did not even respond to my points about how the Darkshore storyline does not stack up with the Darrowshire storyline regarding thematic merit, as I've said just because the stories feature undead or 'bad shit happening' does not make them equivalent. The mood whiplash of BFA's storylines completely shuts down any merit it may have earned with its darker story beats, as I've written.

    I've looked at the gnoll art gallery, and even the Reforged update is more true to form than Dragonflight's take which is saying a lot.

    You whine about a lil' banter, but go on these weird attempts at psychoanalysis, if you'd like me to stop with the banter then cease with that.
    the usage of multiple ellipses: https://grammar.yourdictionary.com/p...-ellipses.html
    Many uses for it in conversation speech like this.
    Many more link you can find.

    And i did response. I said: yes some stuff does not translate 1 to 1. But some stuff does. And are we not talking about the darkness of the story? or do you want 1 vs 1 comparisons. Like say:
    - both attacked by the undead
    - both are places ghost and memory's remain
    - defenders of both that have been turned and or corrupted against their will be the enemy ( undead) forces
    - enough spirits to visit. And there are no quests yet. But it ever becomes a normal zone again. There will be. In the past there where quest for death people.

    And again, it was to point out dark stuff still happens. And they have not gone light on the darkstuff ( or cartoony )

    Gnoll: what... are you for real... if you put W3 ( not reforged) next to DF. its closer then w3 ( not RF) then WoW "vanilla". Hell even the expressions are different. Gnolls in pre WoW ( warcraft) media where more portrait as dangerous, laughing hyena's. Orginal WoW they look more like angry dogs.

    Thats not whining about a little banter. Banter is not needed in a discussion. And its only proof you are trying to derail the discussion. And not doing any psychoanalysis on you. Thats just basic seeing something and reacting to it.

    But again, back to the thread. I have proven time and time again. That WoW is still dark. Maybe not as dark as your remember or want it to be. But its still dark. And funny you side step other points of mine. Things you can not proof/argeu with :P.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    the usage of multiple ellipses: https://grammar.yourdictionary.com/p...-ellipses.html
    Many uses for it in conversation speech like this.
    Many more link you can find.

    And i did response. I said: yes some stuff does not translate 1 to 1. But some stuff does. And are we not talking about the darkness of the story? or do you want 1 vs 1 comparisons. Like say:
    - both attacked by the undead
    - both are places ghost and memory's remain
    - defenders of both that have been turned and or corrupted against their will be the enemy ( undead) forces
    - enough spirits to visit. And there are no quests yet. But it ever becomes a normal zone again. There will be. In the past there where quest for death people.

    And again, it was to point out dark stuff still happens. And they have not gone light on the darkstuff ( or cartoony )

    Gnoll: what... are you for real... if you put W3 ( not reforged) next to DF. its closer then w3 ( not RF) then WoW "vanilla". Hell even the expressions are different. Gnolls in pre WoW ( warcraft) media where more portrait as dangerous, laughing hyena's. Orginal WoW they look more like angry dogs.

    Thats not whining about a little banter. Banter is not needed in a discussion. And its only proof you are trying to derail the discussion. And not doing any psychoanalysis on you. Thats just basic seeing something and reacting to it.

    But again, back to the thread. I have proven time and time again. That WoW is still dark. Maybe not as dark as your remember or want it to be. But its still dark. And funny you side step other points of mine. Things you can not proof/argeu with :P.
    Not to the main point regarding mood whiplash. You've simply added onto a quite literal comparison, but the tonal inconsistency renders what would be dark elements moot.

    And no, your use of ellipses was overboard, but at least you toned it down.

  19. #479
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    Yup. Way too family friendly. Corporate wants blizzard to reach more and more audiences, that they're moving away from what kept their initial targeted audience engaged, saying "well they're addicted anyway", and we get more and more... diverse content. Don't get me wrong, it's great they want to be inclusive in their game, but they're long forgotten that a game can't be for everyone, as controversal it might sound. I kinda look at blizzard being a snake wanting to eat a large prey(playerbase). At first, it opens its jaw a little bit, taking some of the prey in, but by the sheer size of the playerbase, its unhinged its jaw so much its not able to pull it back together, and its basically paralyzed for any further progress and the playerbase is in its jaw going "is this it?" :P Okay, perhaps a bad metaphore, but I hope you see what I was going for.

    Catering to the casual player, disrupts the hardcore player. Catering to the hardcore player, disrupts the casual player. I firmly believe they can still do both, but with the elements added in dragonflight, they've almost completely REMOVED the "war" in "warcraft".

    A prime example I like to pull out in these terms; back in BFA there was a quest where you were going to match 2 dinosaurs by setting up a picnic for them. Yes, already now it sounds too family friendly. Anyways, you're tasked to do this and that, gathering flowers, food and whatnot just to set it up. At the end, you are killing a big named mob and taking his head to be presented as a tribute or lunch or whatever that these two dinosaurs could enjoy together.(You were questing for the male dino, wanting to impress the female dino). So, ending the quest, you spawn A BASKET containing the head on the picnic cloth for them both to enjoy. It was at that time, seeing a basket to shroud a head and adding a cuteness over it all, I was able to open my eyes and see the family friendly game this game have become. I'm not saying that the game can't have cute quests like this, but holy heck, in spirit - this type of mentality was *everywhere* in terms of quests and lore.

    Shortly put: They could just call their game AdventureCraft at this point as what made warcraft WARcraft, is long lost with WC1, 2, 3, 3TfT and WoWVanilla-MoP. I was almost going to include WoW, but I feel like the overall aestetic of that expansion is just so.. bland. Apart from the time travelling, it's a great world and POTENTIAL for amazing lore, but the familyfriendlywashness made it bland. Also, there were other elements that made that xpac very little enjoyable.


    On a closing note; It's ironically how an MMO is encouraged to be as such. These days, one can do most content pretty much alone. ALONE! I'm not wizard or master of video games, but a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER OPEN-RPG should encourage the MULTIPLAYER part. Cataclysm did promote it a great deal with guild perks and guild levels, making people want to get both tighter with their guilds, but I've read so many stories about people finding friends in-game that they met in cata, that it's baffling to me how they're catering to solo-players in the levels that they are. Sure, not every MMO must tie everything up to the multiplayer aspect, but these days, there's 10% of things needing the multiplayer aspect, and 90% allowing you to be entirely on your own(I consider matchmaking system to be solo-content as you're independent on other players to engage in said activities. Ofc LFR and the likes are multiplayer content, but it doesn't make you feel a part of a community, leaving you pretty much solo in the end.)

    So yes, WoW is too family friendly. It removed the War in Warcraft, and catered too much to the casual player. While I get it; more players means more money, you will soon experience an exodus of players because you spread the butter too thin. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but it's actually fine to say; "This game is not for everyone". Blizzard is living in denial and want to cater to everyone(Ironically, while failing to listen to the community)

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Wewlad View Post
    Not to the main point regarding mood whiplash. You've simply added onto a quite literal comparison, but the tonal inconsistency renders what would be dark elements moot.

    And no, your use of ellipses was overboard, but at least you toned it down.
    The main point of the thread is: has wow gotten qoute to qoute family friendly.

    Your point is it was no longer dark and gritty. I have shown dark stuff, that would not be family friendly. And its still be wtf did just happen kind of stuff.

    And the comparison still stands. You posted it about darrowshire. that it has not been dark like that. And darkshore does not compare. Darkshore was pretty bad. You even had the moral qoundry in ashenvale to kill or not. But if you want a more recent quests that deals in dark stuff like Mankrik's Wife. Dregging up the corpse of jaina's brother. Reviving it and then torture/brainwash him? Or how the priest in teldrassil held the portals open until they died? yeah nothing dark story there...being burned alive...

    oohh and i missed something about the ellipses usage. Did i ever say my ellipses usage was about my dyslexia?...sigh...

    Thought you where attacking my grammar and usage of ellipses.

    But again, i think we disagree on the all of it.
    Like the example i have given before.
    You say wow is like going from diablo 2 ( dark and gritty), to diablo 3 ( cartoon vill)
    i say ( with proof to counter you) that its going from diablo 2 to diablo 4.

    And i think many people. Have a vision of the world. Or thing like WoW ( or movie) and force their narrative of point of view on it. A women hero, then its woke.
    nothing corpses everywhere, then its weak.
    Think the perspective of many people have changed. While a group of us do no think it has. I have given my proof. and my opinion.

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