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  1. #861
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacia Ultan View Post
    There's another (rather blatantly trolling) thread where people are clutching their pearls about said content, then backpedaling and trying to claim that it's somehow over-the-top compared to previous romantic subplots. (When they're not doubling down, that is). Which I find kind of hilarious, because Tom and Mike remind me more of Syra and Lo from MoP than, say, Tyrande and Malfurion or even Thrall and Aggra.
    It's one of the reasons I posted into the other thread and called out the OP as such. Frankly, I would have shut down the thread there were I mod because it's basically the same as this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khaza-R View Post
    I understand your sentiment here a bit more and thank you for elaborating but I still disagree. Yes, its evident that older Disney films are dual messaged for both adults and children. Hunchback of Notre Dame perhaps the most extremely example of such. Even more "adult" than many adult films.

    However if this is the example we are using then it defininitely does not apply to WoW. WoW is way too shallow and uncomplex to fit those notes. Which is a large part of the problem I spoke too earlier. The comic book like narrative and its deilvery do not help themselves to this overtly positive tone in Dragonflight. It just exacerbates an already shallow story.
    While I do agree that WoW's a bit to unwieldy at times to be considered properly mature, there ARE moments that the series has given us that fit that tone. I'd consider the Lich King's Death in Wrath to be a perfect moment in example. I'd say the same for the Klaxxi rep grind, if not nearly all of Mists. We know they're capable of it.

    But just because a positive tone is given to a series doesn't mean it can't have that level of Maturity. I'd point to a huge chunk of Steven Universe, especially if you're talking about Future. That series is ALL about emotions and feelings, and yet it's both got some rather mature (and rather DARK) moments that far exceed a lot of other material. The same could be said for comic books. Neil Gaiman's Sandman, The Technis Imperative in Teen Titans with Devin Grayson and Phil Jimenez, ANYTHING by
    Gail Simone.

    Any medium: Movies, video games, cartoons, comics, what have you. It can be for adults. It can be for kids. These are not mutual things. Just because something is seen a certain way doesn't mean it can't grow beyond that. And even the most childish of things can hide dark, mature stories. Look at Mewtwo from Pokemon for proof of that.


    This just seems like just an unnecessary tagent to add. I get that LGBT matieral is personally important to you and that's great. I am also glad that WoW has added it, ,because there's not reason they shouldn't. Especially with the amount of LGBT fans they accumulated. However, you seem to harbor an unjustified hostiliity I can't condone. Just because people contributed, developed, or liked a different era where this progressivism was absent doesn't make them bad. That's rather hateful to even insinuate such.

    Or perhaps I am misunderstanding your stance and if so, please correct me.
    We're in a bit of a transpositionary period, especially these last few years, when it comes to media of any kind. There is a particular group of people who will decry anything new added to older media because 'it takes away from what made it cool'. We've seen this with Star Wars, where regardless of the actual quality of the films, the fact that it's showing more representation got it flack. Transformers suffered the same thing for dare having a character who was Non-Binary.... which is weird considering the entire franchise is based of ROBOTS. And we're seeing it here with Warcraft.

    There are posts, in this very forum even, that call out the lack of mature content and point to the representation of LGBT as part of that failure. Where just having it removes the 'edge' from the universe. And in our conversations and you even bringing up things like Dragon Prince prove that the two aren't mutual. The reason I even brought it up in the first place is because right now, the people who are saying they're wanting the grit and maturity have and will decry anything that is even the little bit progressive, where even a character having pink hair is something that they'll hiss at like angry cats.

    You are right in the fact that we don't NEED progressive aspects to make something good. But everyone pointing at it as the downfall of WoW isn't worth listening to in the first place.

  2. #862
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Some people just don't grow up

    We had Legion, fighting hordes of demons where may died, then we had BFA where many died in a world war, then we had SL where we literally went to WoW's versio of hell and fought WoW's version of the devil....one expansion where it isn't grim dark, something actually a little different and they whine

    They have this illusion of WoW always being super edgy...because that's what they want, but WoW was always a little cartoonish, they just want endless edgy and death...they never got over their edgelord phase in junior high
    You can have adult themes with cartoonish stuff. And you know, the war theme.
    There was cartoony stuff in all those expansions.

    Apparently adult animation doesn't exist.

  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    We're nine expansions in. We've already had plenty of big, scary boss villain dragons. Black ones, blue ones, green ones, void ones, dead ones, a metal one so big we could only help by going around and killing tentacle parasites. Kinda gets old after a while.
    That's the point of the game and this is how fantasy is written.

  4. #864
    Quote Originally Posted by Dacia Ultan View Post
    I point out that "war" doesn't mean "faction conflict," and y'all go right back to "it's called Warcraft!" Amazing.

    Aside from this being more of the previous: that proves that there is a faction divide. It meaning that the faction conflict was the entire point of the story is your interpretation.

    And as for the rest of your post? This fanbase is constantly moaning about "bad writing," every time something makes them uncomfortable or doesn't go their way. And yet: here you are, demanding what—past a certain point—adds up to narrative railroading to make the story go the way you want it to. Just goes to show that writing quality was never the actual concern.
    The reason people keep going back to the old axiom of "it's called Warcraft!", is because the land of Azeroth and the turmoil within, is warcraft. It represents the turmoil not only between the land but also it's people. Think about it like a snowglobe. It looks nice and peaceful until you shake it up. But it's contained within that sphere. Extra planar/dimensional entities were added to the mix that existed outside of that globe. If you changed the dichotomy of the workings within, then it wouldn't be the same as it was originally named.

    You could have a big event wherein things vastly changed but then I believe it would require almost a new game, or a makeover of sorts. This would almost be like a "re-branding" of the franchise. Maybe something like "Warcraft Saga". To encompass a wider changing narrative of not only the war and strife of it's people within, but their battles and interactions with those without.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    To be fair, part of the pavlov of WoW was them training you to do your dailies every day, working on it like a job until you were trained to always go back regardless if you wanted to or not. XIV has never forced you onto that, and it's story/music/fight design is what hooks a lot of people and keeps them playing long after the fact.

    I'm not sure what the ideal MMO is, considering everyone is into different things, but as far as I'm concerned, XIV hit a story spot for me that WoW had always promised on, but never delivered.
    I feel like the first part of your comment is a bit disingenuous to be frank. Dailies were just meant as a cheap and easy way to give players something to feed on once they had finished most other current parts of the game that are relevant at the time. WoW and by proxy ALL mmo's are built like a jigsaw puzzle. When one piece doesn't fit then it effects the rest. People who want to gobble up content are some of the targets of the design to include daily quests. It gives them something to do in the PvE world that they would not normally have and it also allows normal people to chip away at a certain reputation or faction. But really you don't HAVE to do any of it. If you want you can just skirt the content until the next expansion comes along, maybe that one will tickle someone's fancy and motivate them to do dailies or not. Bottom line Dailies are and always have been an option. Unless you FEEL like the only way to min-max your character is to have every reward, and every faction maxed out, etc, then yes dailies might seem like a job. But what would the alternative be? Just give players max rep with a chosen faction once they complete the story for that faction?
    I feel like people would complain the game was even MORE easy if that was the case. Without putting hurdles in front of the player to overcome what then would be the challenge?

    You bring up FFXIV. I have always been a fan of FF series even back in the Nintendo days. I played and enjoyed FFXIV since the beta. It had it's good points but always seemed to be lacking something. Sure if you wanted a mostly single player game with MMO elements and a good storyline then there you go. But the problem is once the story is over with your left with some hard choices. You either wait for the next expansion to come out and continue the storyline, or you focus on other things like housing, glamour runs, RP, events, etc. You can chose to do the Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate, Raids or Trials, but then what? Making a new character in FFIXV is a daunting process because it means doing EVERYTHING all over again. The way the story works as you may well know, is that most of the major story beats culminate with a Trial, or Raid. Which when you queue up for a random will have already completed ad-nauseum many times already. So you get to re-live some of the original fetch quests again as an alt. Still not a hugely motivating reason to go back and do that all over with.

    Meanwhile in WoW while I admit it's FAR from perfect. You can still customize your leveling route as an alt and if you chose to forego the meta and whatever the quickest xp route is, then you can dip into several other expansions storylines from the past as you wish. FFXIV meanwhile has only ONE direction. Straight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Some people just don't grow up

    We had Legion, fighting hordes of demons where may died, then we had BFA where many died in a world war, then we had SL where we literally went to WoW's versio of hell and fought WoW's version of the devil....one expansion where it isn't grim dark, something actually a little different and they whine

    They have this illusion of WoW always being super edgy...because that's what they want, but WoW was always a little cartoonish, they just want endless edgy and death...they never got over their edgelord phase in junior high
    Originally WoW's version of "Hell" was more or less the outlands, what existed beyond the Dark Portal. Somewhere in the Twisting Nether the Legions of Sargeras (WoW's real version of the Devil, NOT the Jailor), invaded the World of Draenor and added it into the fold, making it a further extension of Hell. Orcs were more or less demonic infused soldiers. This all had a very otherworldly feel to it but Blizzard decided to play down the spiritual aspects and make the outlands and it's denizens and even the Legion itself feel more ALIEN than demonic or extra-planar. This was done to differentiate it's IP's to not fall into their Diablo franchise.

    Meanwhile all it did was make things feel disconnected and odd. When we played WCIII and first saw Archimonde appear, it was cool and felt like an extra-planar demon was reaching into the world of Azeroth and trying to exert his will on behalf of his dark master. This is part of why I felt a little disconnected with TBC when it came out.

    This thread was never meant to be about pandering to Edgelords or yearning for a darkness within the game for the sake of darkness alone. It was about the dark feel and undertone of the game, the seriousness blended in under the cartoonish colors and graphics that seemed to make the world feel just the least bit more threatening than it does now.

  5. #865
    I feel like the first part of your comment is a bit disingenuous to be frank. Dailies were just meant as a cheap and easy way to give players something to feed on once they had finished most other current parts of the game that are relevant at the time. WoW and by proxy ALL mmo's are built like a jigsaw puzzle. When one piece doesn't fit then it effects the rest. People who want to gobble up content are some of the targets of the design to include daily quests. It gives them something to do in the PvE world that they would not normally have and it also allows normal people to chip away at a certain reputation or faction. But really you don't HAVE to do any of it. If you want you can just skirt the content until the next expansion comes along, maybe that one will tickle someone's fancy and motivate them to do dailies or not. Bottom line Dailies are and always have been an option. Unless you FEEL like the only way to min-max your character is to have every reward, and every faction maxed out, etc, then yes dailies might seem like a job. But what would the alternative be? Just give players max rep with a chosen faction once they complete the story for that faction?
    Dailies were more of an option back when they were limited, when the players were told 'you can only do a few a day, so pick and choose who you want to do'. The moment they removed the limit back in Mists, there were players set on doing them ALL just for the pure gold generation. And that's kinda the start of stuff like that for WoW, where you log in daily to do your chores and if you didn't you fell behind. It was actually WORSE in Mists, because back then, you actually had gear behind the Rep grinds that you needed to even get into heroics back then.

    Hilariously enough, considering you're later comments, FF14 does it perfectly. Not only does it limit you so you're not spending your entire day doing dailies, but NONE of the things outside of materia matter towards the end game, and materia can be gotten several other different ways. That's part of the reason WoW's dailies and a lot of that other stuff in there were considered 'Chores' because EVERYONE had to do the same ONE thing to get anywhere when it came to the progression of power. The feeling of coming home from your job to do another job you were paying for was a very real feeling back in the day.

    You bring up FFXIV. I have always been a fan of FF series even back in the Nintendo days. I played and enjoyed FFXIV since the beta. It had it's good points but always seemed to be lacking something. Sure if you wanted a mostly single player game with MMO elements and a good storyline then there you go. But the problem is once the story is over with your left with some hard choices. You either wait for the next expansion to come out and continue the storyline, or you focus on other things like housing, glamour runs, RP, events, etc. You can chose to do the Extreme, Savage, and Ultimate, Raids or Trials, but then what? Making a new character in FFIXV is a daunting process because it means doing EVERYTHING all over again. The way the story works as you may well know, is that most of the major story beats culminate with a Trial, or Raid. Which when you queue up for a random will have already completed ad-nauseum many times already. So you get to re-live some of the original fetch quests again as an alt. Still not a hugely motivating reason to go back and do that all over with.
    That's just the thing, though. The fun!

    You act like that progressing or doing things is the ONLY part of the game and that's mostly because WoW brain has trained you in that respect. You get to the end game, or you don't matter. The very things you're disregarding, the housing, the glamour runs, stuff like that? That's what a lot of people LIVE for in FFXIV. People will spend hours just getting the materials to get the right piece of furniture for their bedrooms because that makes them happy instead of worrying about the DPS numbers of their class.

    Not only that, but you're GROSSLY understating just how much there is to do in XIV. You can level all the classes on one character. The Crafting Jobs actually MATTER and you can level them to the same cap as the actual classes. That's 29 different things you can level up to level cap ALONE, more than enough to get your times worth. That's not even mentioning things like the Gold Saucer and all of it's mini games, triple triad, the Island Sanctuaries, old legendary weapon grinds that you can still do for looks, and if you're REALLY a completionist you can even go through and do all the side quests in the game. Some of those actually have wonderful stories, minions, emotes, and hair styles that you wouldn't get otherwise!

    I myself have been playing XIV since around mid to late Shadowbringers, and I STILL haven't finished half the things in there I've listed. Going and saying 'there's nothing to do' just because you beat the latest Ultimate already (Which, heh, good luck with that) is a disservice to the game itself.

    Meanwhile in WoW while I admit it's FAR from perfect. You can still customize your leveling route as an alt and if you chose to forego the meta and whatever the quickest xp route is, then you can dip into several other expansions storylines from the past as you wish. FFXIV meanwhile has only ONE direction. Straight.
    Yes, let's go play an alt for a game where I don't care for the story, I ignore the quest text outside of 'Kill and collect bear asses', doesn't have a coherent story TO follow even if i wanted to, and that I can jump around into what ever gets me to level cap fastest so I can spend more time grinding on a never ending treadmill only to be kicked from a dungeon for not knowing the 100% optimal pathing to avoid half the mobs.

    With XIV, I treat it and tell others to treat it like a long series of novels or one of your favorite TV series. I can't tell you how many times I've gone back to reread the Dresden Files or go and Rewatch things like Adventure Time because I just enjoy them that much. And there's NOTHING more fun then going through a series of something you love but with an audience so you can see if they have the same reactions as you do. That's kinda what HALF the enjoyment of watching ANYONE going through FFXIV on twitch is about.

    I'll fully admit, XIV isn't perfect. But I'm perfectly fine with spending time in there because I want to Vs WoW where I spent time in there because I HAD to.

  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post
    Not really. I always played custom made campaigns made up and written by the DM. Dragons were sometimes helpful but almost always were barely tolerant at best.
    They always radiated an aura of power and stoicism. When I was younger than that I first noticed DnD watching commercials with fire breathing dragons. I watched the original DnD cartoon with Bahamut and Tiamat. I loved the original Dragonslayer movie. The dragons of my youth were something to be awed and feared, and respected.
    You know that there is no such thing as definition of a dragon? because that word change meaning from culture to culture.

  7. #867
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    You know that there is no such thing as definition of a dragon? because that word change meaning from culture to culture.
    To paraphrase Tad Williams: dragons can no more be narrowly defined than successfully kept as pets. Closest I've heard is "long-lived, scaly, hoards shinies like a jackdaw, and overall a sort of lion/bird/reptile mash-up; choose two or more."

  8. #868
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    You know that there is no such thing as definition of a dragon? because that word change meaning from culture to culture.
    A Dragon is a mythical creature. There have been many stories of dragons since the dawn of time.

    Dragon mythology has existed almost as long as people have. In fact, many of the early Mesopotamian cultures and other ancients in the Near East have rich oral histories that tell of mighty storm gods saving the people from evil giant serpents. These serpents often had many terrifying features, ranging from fluorescent skin to the ability to breathe fire and fly. These myths were the foundation of the modern perspective on dragons.

    So how can one accurately describe the fearsome dragon? For starters, it seems that a dragon is actually any form of serpent that has an especially fearsome nature. This is indicated by the word ‘drakon’ that the English word ‘dragon’ was derived from. ‘Drakon’ means ‘large serpent’ or ‘sea serpent.’ Additionally, most dragons are described as being evil in nature. This is not always the case, however, as evidenced by Chinese mythology. There are times that dragons are also shown as benevolent and knowledgeable creatures.

    In early cultures, the dragons were often seen as mighty serpents and beasts that were either extremely benevolent or fearsome and difficult to kill. The beliefs of a region are often influenced by geographical location. Eastern cultures often saw dragons as a knowledgeable deity that had power over storms and water. Additionally, they also saw the dragon as a powerful and benevolent creature that could ward off evil.

    Western cultures had a very different perspective. They often saw dragons as evil beasts that reveled in killing and chaos. Many dragons are depicted as living in dark and dangerous places that were often perilous for men in ancient times. Additionally, they were often thought to guard hoards of treasure.

    In both cultures, dragons were largely thought to be wingless before the Medieval Ages. During this time, the Western cultures began to transform their dragon portrayals, while the Eastern cultures continued with their traditions.

    Listen I could go on and on and on. Every culture has had reference to dragons at some point in time. As a mythical creature almost every story has some variation. But for the most part there are commonly agreed upon things. With reference to the dragons in WoW, which were more or less modeled after western dragons the points I mentioned above more or less apply. However in WoW they want to portray dragons for the most part as ambivalent peace bringers. With a few bad apples here and there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MsSideEye View Post
    Dailies were more of an option back when they were limited, when the players were told 'you can only do a few a day, so pick and choose who you want to do'. The moment they removed the limit back in Mists, there were players set on doing them ALL just for the pure gold generation. And that's kinda the start of stuff like that for WoW, where you log in daily to do your chores and if you didn't you fell behind. It was actually WORSE in Mists, because back then, you actually had gear behind the Rep grinds that you needed to even get into heroics back then.

    Hilariously enough, considering you're later comments, FF14 does it perfectly. Not only does it limit you so you're not spending your entire day doing dailies, but NONE of the things outside of materia matter towards the end game, and materia can be gotten several other different ways. That's part of the reason WoW's dailies and a lot of that other stuff in there were considered 'Chores' because EVERYONE had to do the same ONE thing to get anywhere when it came to the progression of power. The feeling of coming home from your job to do another job you were paying for was a very real feeling back in the day.





    That's just the thing, though. The fun!

    You act like that progressing or doing things is the ONLY part of the game and that's mostly because WoW brain has trained you in that respect. You get to the end game, or you don't matter. The very things you're disregarding, the housing, the glamour runs, stuff like that? That's what a lot of people LIVE for in FFXIV. People will spend hours just getting the materials to get the right piece of furniture for their bedrooms because that makes them happy instead of worrying about the DPS numbers of their class.

    Not only that, but you're GROSSLY understating just how much there is to do in XIV. You can level all the classes on one character. The Crafting Jobs actually MATTER and you can level them to the same cap as the actual classes. That's 29 different things you can level up to level cap ALONE, more than enough to get your times worth. That's not even mentioning things like the Gold Saucer and all of it's mini games, triple triad, the Island Sanctuaries, old legendary weapon grinds that you can still do for looks, and if you're REALLY a completionist you can even go through and do all the side quests in the game. Some of those actually have wonderful stories, minions, emotes, and hair styles that you wouldn't get otherwise!

    I myself have been playing XIV since around mid to late Shadowbringers, and I STILL haven't finished half the things in there I've listed. Going and saying 'there's nothing to do' just because you beat the latest Ultimate already (Which, heh, good luck with that) is a disservice to the game itself.



    Yes, let's go play an alt for a game where I don't care for the story, I ignore the quest text outside of 'Kill and collect bear asses', doesn't have a coherent story TO follow even if i wanted to, and that I can jump around into what ever gets me to level cap fastest so I can spend more time grinding on a never ending treadmill only to be kicked from a dungeon for not knowing the 100% optimal pathing to avoid half the mobs.

    With XIV, I treat it and tell others to treat it like a long series of novels or one of your favorite TV series. I can't tell you how many times I've gone back to reread the Dresden Files or go and Rewatch things like Adventure Time because I just enjoy them that much. And there's NOTHING more fun then going through a series of something you love but with an audience so you can see if they have the same reactions as you do. That's kinda what HALF the enjoyment of watching ANYONE going through FFXIV on twitch is about.

    I'll fully admit, XIV isn't perfect. But I'm perfectly fine with spending time in there because I want to Vs WoW where I spent time in there because I HAD to.
    No listen,. From my early days of playing JRPG's including many of the FF games themselves, I had it in my head that you level up a character to achieve a goal. There is a story going on in the game and your a part of it. Sometimes a small part, sometimes a larger one. Regardless you did your part and along the way gained experience and therefore leveled up as a result, thus allowing you to do more things in the game and progress the storyline. Once you got strong enough to progress to the end of the story and defeat the last boss(s), or challenge(s), the game had to offer, that was more or less IT.

    Sometimes you could of course continue playing from your last save file and finish up some loose ends, etc. Sometimes you could do a sort of new game+ mode. Either way. That was that. With the advent of MMORPG's starting with me when I started playing "EverQuest", the Idea was posed that the quest would never end, and thus you could keep playing indefinitely.

    However after doing this very thing for years and years to no end, I have grown a bit tired of just playing a single character for the sake of playing and keep doing new things at level cap. This is why I enjoy remaking characters and going through the heroes journey again. However with FFXIV this is a major time investment. I enjoy playing a few hours here and there on one character then playing a different class/character, then next day picking something else. This is what keeps me entertained.

    If I played the same toon exclusively then it would only be a matter of time before I got sucked into the trap again that I had fought to get out of after many years of being on the MMO hamster wheel.

    I still enjoy the NPC's and such in WOW. The stories aren't great but tell a simple tale. If I run into something overly silly or that I just don't like then I go to another area.

    I don't really do current level dungeons anymore. I just run older stuff while leveling up an alt. It's quick, easy, and low pressure.
    I come home from work to relax not deal with one of those asshats who try and beat you up if you don't run a dungeon optimally.
    I actually did enjoy the patch 10.1.5 stuff a bit and I did quite a bit of grouping in Forbidden Reach. That kind of pickup group style of gameplay is fun. I also did a bit of the Loamm Niffen stuff and killed many of those bosses and did the little event thing down there.
    I do occasionally get a bug up my behind to do current stuff but mostly play a DPS where I can follow the others who know the routes. When I tank it gets ugly.
    Last edited by Zodiark; 2023-12-21 at 04:03 AM.

  9. #869
    Quote Originally Posted by Zodiark View Post
    No listen,. From my early days of playing JRPG's including many of the FF games themselves, I had it in my head that you level up a character to achieve a goal. There is a story going on in the game and your a part of it. Sometimes a small part, sometimes a larger one. Regardless you did your part and along the way gained experience and therefore leveled up as a result, thus allowing you to do more things in the game and progress the storyline. Once you got strong enough to progress to the end of the story and defeat the last boss(s), or challenge(s), the game had to offer, that was more or less IT.

    Sometimes you could of course continue playing from your last save file and finish up some loose ends, etc. Sometimes you could do a sort of new game+ mode. Either way. That was that. With the advent of MMORPG's starting with me when I started playing "EverQuest", the Idea was posed that the quest would never end, and thus you could keep playing indefinitely.

    However after doing this very thing for years and years to no end, I have grown a bit tired of just playing a single character for the sake of playing and keep doing new things at level cap. This is why I enjoy remaking characters and going through the heroes journey again. However with FFXIV this is a major time investment. I enjoy playing a few hours here and there on one character then playing a different class/character, then next day picking something else. This is what keeps me entertained.
    What it sounds like isn't so much you wanting to play an MMO at this point. It's sounds like you're wanting to play a Roguelike.

    You being bored with your character and getting trapped in the mmo style of things isn't a problem of the game itself, it's the problem of what you're interests lies in right now. You say you want to be able to do different things and switch things up... and yet that's EXACTLY what XIV does. If you don't have any interest in being a tank, switch over to DPS or heals. It's just that simple. Same things for leveling. Not interested in dungeon spamming? There's fates. There's quests. There's Eureka and Bozja.

    The only thing that's stays the same is your character and the progress you've made on them, and that's something that's also easily changeable for races since there's no race restrictions here.

    If anything, by the reasonsing you've given, you should love XIV MORE because it has those options and abilities and WoW doesn't.

  10. #870
    Yes, and so was BFA. As frowny facedly self-serious as that expansion got, they were all in on the Dreamworks Face artstyle WoD had established, which has only further metastasized every year since. The darkest of the empty gratuity, like the vulpera elimination squads and the Forsaken-run death camps, was removed prior to launch for being "too far." The visual design for a dragon-seared corpse rotting at the bottom of the sea for 20 years turned out to be "sailor man is a bit wet and looks sad." The moral takeaway of what was basically the culmination of 15 years of conflict amounted to, once again, "de Horde be a family," now with the addendum of "Sylvanas is our daydrunk wine aunt who needs to go to a rehab," and "the world is our home." God help you if you consider the implications of an orcish veteran of the First War making the latter statement for so much as an instant.

    The meme that BFA was "dark," "old Warcraft," "metal" etc because there was a war on, because the factions incurred losses, or because Everquest transplant Afrasiabi had a creative hand in it is just that, a meme. It was the same MCU wannabe Golden-Danuser bilge as anything after, just with a lot more of what it considered "baggage" still left to sort out before they could move on to their real priority as storytellers: https://fairplayalliance.org/wp-cont...-Framework.pdf

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