Were the Primal Incarnates and the Aspects created by Tyr? [SPOILERS]

[Darkarath]

I have not seen much discussion about this topic yet, and if there is, apologies in advance.

When we reach Dragonscale Expedition Renown 24, there is an interesting questline in which we can visit some of Tyr's facilities, in which he was experimenting with Proto-Dragons and their easiness to be infused with every element. So this is, IMO, a clear indication that he created the Primal Incarnates, which are:

- Raszageth (infused with AIR).
- Fyrakk (infused with FIRE).
- Vyranoth (infused with WATER).
- Iridikron (infused with EARTH).

If we look at WoW's famous Cosmology Chart, we can see that Tyr infused Proto-Dragons with every element in the middle of the chart, except for:

- SPIRIT, because our planet does not have that element, as it was consumed by Azeroth herself, the Titan, if I recall correctly.
- DECAY. But DECAY was actually infused into a Proto Dragon. That would be Galakrond.

Galakrond was too much, one of Tyr's experiments which went south. Why would he appear in that time of need to help the Aspects? Just when Galakrond was a threath? He messed up and he needed help to set things right. Or did he? Maybe it was just another experiment. We do not know if the Primal Incarnates were created after or before the Aspects. Why the Primal Incarnates did not help the Aspects against Galakrond if they existed at that point? Maybe Tyr wanted to try how powerful his new Proto Infused Dragons would be, but this time, he will infuse them with more complicated forces, not with the basics elements of every planet:

- Alextrasza (infused with LIFE).
- Ysera (infused with NATURE).
- Malygos (infused with ARCANE).
- Nozdormu (infused with ORDER).

If we look again to WoW's cosmology chart, we can see that these new elements belong to the outer rings in the left side, but the ones in the right, top and bottom side are missing. Lets take a look at them:

- FEL and DISORDER. Tyr did not have access to these elements, as the Burning Legion did not have invaded Azeroth yet at that point.

- NECROMANTIC and DEATH. Tyr infused Galakrond with DECAY, and as he became an enormous threat, he probably decided to stop right there.

- SHADOW and VOID. Was Neltharion the Earth-Warder? No, he was not. Tyr already infused Iridikron with EARTH. Why he would infuse another Proto-Dragon with the same element? He infused Neltharion with SHADOW or VOID. That is why he was the first to fall. That is why maybe he started to see all paths as a Void infused being, and saw that the path set by the Titans was not the right path.

- HOLY and LIGHT. It is unknown if Tyr had access to these elements when he created the Aspects. He had access to VOID because of the existence of Old Gods in Azeroth, but we do not know exactly how he would find a light source to infuse a Proto Dragon. But, maybe he did. In the Dragonscale Expedition's quest mentioned above, we also discover that Alextrasza and Ysera, who are sisters, had a brother. We are told that he died, but did he? His body has not been found. Maybe he is the LIGHT infused Proto-Dragon, which is locked somewhere.

So, IMO, Tyr is even worse than Odyn. He does not give a shit about the mortal races, and every good action that he made was probably just to clean his own messes. I bet that his plan was to start the Dragon Wars just to see which element was the stronger.

[Revamp Man]

Galakrond is referenced as a proto dragon that consumed tainted water

I agree that Tyr and his experiments are going to be brought up again along with the fact that Alex and ysera had a brother and that the dragons fought undead dragons.

[Phob]

The proto-dragons descend from elementals who avoided being imprisoned in the Elemental Plane and instead remained on Azeroth, where some of them gradually transformed into creatures of flesh and blood. The incarnates are just more powerful proto dragons.

[Villager720]

Galakrond is referenced as a proto dragon that consumed tainted water

I agree that Tyr and his experiments are going to be brought up again along with the fact that Alex and ysera had a brother and that the dragons fought undead dragons.

I think there's a good chance we continue to see the Titans and Watchers lied and hid things throughout the expansion.
I wouldn't be surprised if these revelations are what cause the Murozond thread to kickoff - an overwhelming sense of betrayal for poor Noz.

Tyr being one of the sneakiest amongst them wouldn't really such be a revelation as he's most famous for building secret facilities, hiding records, and innovating with Dragonkind.
That said, I do think it's unlikely they're direct titanforged creations. They're so very adverse to all the influence of said Titans, it'd be pretty damning if they were essentially just elemental Aspects.

[Maell]

Don't wanna waste too much time refuting it point by point...

Just read:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dra...Dragon_Aspects
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Proto-dragon
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Primal_Incarnates

[Lochton]

Hmm, huge doubts. Tyr had a part in the Aspects, the Incarnates are the opposites.

[chrisisvacant]

Don't wanna waste too much time refuting it point by point...

Just read:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dra...Dragon_Aspects
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Proto-dragon
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Primal_Incarnates

Nothing about these links disproves his theory. Hope this helps!

[Phob]

The primal incarnates are completely against Tyr. Aspects were created from proto dragons (which that's what the incarnates are) by Tyr. Think of them as that's what the Aspects would have become if they were to never have been touched by Tyr.

[Maell]

Nothing about these links disproves his theory. Hope this helps!

Just read the part about how the primal incarnates received their powers.

This whole theory is predicated on the assumption that tyr gave them their powers.

Hope this helps!

[Darkarath]

Just read the part about how the primal incarnates received their powers.

This whole theory is predicated on the assumption that tyr gave them their powers.

Hope this helps!

Yet we have a facility in which Tyr infused Proto-Dragons with those elements. If the Primal Incarnates were just created by elemental exposure, why they did not keep making more powerful ones? Why we only have one Primal Incarnate per element? Why would the Primalists stop at just one Iridikron when they could make two or three? The past and creation of the Incarnates is unclear as of today. They were introduced in DF and DF has not even seen its first patch. We will get to know more about them in the future.

Regarding Galakrond, who probably ate hundreds of Proto-Drakes... How could be that suddenly, just 5 Proto-Drakes, even if they were stronger than the rest, defeated him? Just 5 when he killed hundreds. They were already infused and powered by Tyr. Eventually they changed as the Primal Incarnates changed.

[Jester Joe]

Yet we have a facility in which Tyr infused Proto-Dragons with those elements. If the Primal Incarnates were just created by elemental exposure, why they did not keep making more powerful ones? Why we only have one Primal Incarnate per element? Why would the Primalists stop at just one Iridikron when they could make two or three? The past and creation of the Incarnates is unclear as of today. They were introduced in DF and DF has not even seen its first patch. We will get to know more about them in the future.

Regarding Galakrond, who probably ate hundreds of Proto-Drakes... How could be that suddenly, just 5 Proto-Drakes, even if they were stronger than the rest, defeated him? Just 5 when he killed hundreds. They were already infused and powered by Tyr. Eventually they changed as the Primal Incarnates changed.

Did it say he was infusing them with it? I rushed through that quest last night but I was under the impression that he was studying how the protodrakes were changing and how it affected them, not him forcing it onto them.

[Maell]

Yet we have a facility in which Tyr infused Proto-Dragons with those elements. If the Primal Incarnates were just created by elemental exposure, why they did not keep making more powerful ones? Why we only have one Primal Incarnate per element? Why would the Primalists stop at just one Iridikron when they could make two or three? The past and creation of the Incarnates is unclear as of today. They were introduced in DF and DF has not even seen its first patch. We will get to know more about them in the future.

Quote from https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Proto-dragon

Proto-dragons (also called primal dragons or proto-drakes, and also spelled proto dragons or protodragons) are dragons untouched by titan influence. Millennia ago, the titans altered some of them into the Aspects and their ordered dragonflights, reshaping them both physically and ideologically. This new species is now simply known as dragons. Some primal dragons shunned the gift of the titans and still roam the wilds of Northrend and the Dragon Isles.

Quote from https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Primal_Incarnates

Analogous to the Aspects of the dragonflights, the proto-dragon leaders and their followers, called the Primalists, clashed against the dragons in a cataclysmic war. During this war, they turned to the elements and became infused with their power.
(...)
The proto-dragons descend from elementals who avoided being imprisoned in the Elemental Plane and instead remained on Azeroth, where some of them gradually transformed into creatures of flesh and blood.

The primalists did not create the Primal Incarnates, they are their followers not their creators.
All proto-drakes are descendants from elementals.
During the war with the Aspects, the proto-drakes made some kind of bargain with the elementals that transformed them into Primal Incarnates.

Regarding Galakrond, who probably ate hundreds of Proto-Drakes... How could be that suddenly, just 5 Proto-Drakes, even if they were stronger than the rest, defeated him? Just 5 when he killed hundreds. They were already infused and powered by Tyr. Eventually they changed as the Primal Incarnates changed.

There is more to the story and this is just how they actually killed him:
Quote from https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gal...f_the_Aspects:

With Tyr out of commission from his wound, the proto-dragons had to battle Galakrond alone. Galakrond and his remaining not-living forces would eventually be attacked by the future Aspects, in what would become known as the Dragonblight. During the battle, Malygos would be able to lodge a boulder into Galakrond's throat; an action which not only saw Galakrond to focus his attention on dislodging it, instead of combating the others, but also forced him to release his hold on the remaining not-living who then began to attack one another. Despite his best efforts, the actions of Malygos's ice breaths would force the boulder to remain in the place and the boulder would ultimately be lodged further down his throat when Neltharion blasted a not-living into it, causing Galakrond to ultimately choke to death.

They did not killed with raw power but with a precise a probably lucky attack.


And a quote as to how, when and why the aspects were created:
From https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dra...iginal_Aspects

After the ordering of Azeroth, Keeper Tyr, the greatest titan-forged warrior, stood against Galakrond and with the help of five powerful and intelligent proto-dragons - Alexstrasza, Malygos, Neltharion, Nozdormu, and Ysera - that held dominion over their brethren, they defeated the massive proto-dragon known as Galakrond.

Because of this and their courage, Tyr suggested to the other Keepers to empower them and make them defenders of Azeroth as they proved they were able to stand for the planet. Odyn disagreed, and forbid the other Keepers to proceed with that idea, but they decided to go against him. They reached out to the Pantheon and each of the titans blessed the proto-dragons with a portion of their vast power, channeled through the Keepers.

Hope this helps!

[Darkarath]

Analogous to the Aspects of the dragonflights, the proto-dragon leaders and their followers, called the Primalists, clashed against the dragons in a cataclysmic war. During this war, they turned to the elements and became infused with their power.
(...)
The proto-dragons descend from elementals who avoided being imprisoned in the Elemental Plane and instead remained on Azeroth, where some of them gradually transformed into creatures of flesh and blood.

The point remains. Why not the Primalists / Primal Incarnates created more powerful Incarnates or close to their power, if only elemental infusion was needed? They could not. They could only create lesser imitations, as the four original were created by Tyr. Same with the Aspects, their offspring would never achieve their power.

With Tyr out of commission from his wound, the proto-dragons had to battle Galakrond alone. Galakrond and his remaining not-living forces would eventually be attacked by the future Aspects, in what would become known as the Dragonblight. During the battle, Malygos would be able to lodge a boulder into Galakrond's throat; an action which not only saw Galakrond to focus his attention on dislodging it, instead of combating the others, but also forced him to release his hold on the remaining not-living who then began to attack one another. Despite his best efforts, the actions of Malygos's ice breaths would force the boulder to remain in the place and the boulder would ultimately be lodged further down his throat when Neltharion blasted a not-living into it, causing Galakrond to ultimately choke to death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdaL...orldofWarcraft

Yet Legacies Chapter 1 shows a different battle than Wowpedia does. Do I have to remind you of how many times Blizzard has changed WoW's past events? In Legacies Chapter 1, Nozdormu is showing how the battle happened, right from his memories, and there is not much in common with what Wowpedia says. How curious that just 5 presumably regular proto-dragons, each has a different colour? How curious that Ysera launched a GREEN breath attack. I do not know about regular proto-dragons that breathe nature attacks, unless they have been infused with the proper element...

After the ordering of Azeroth, Keeper Tyr, the greatest titan-forged warrior, stood against Galakrond and with the help of five powerful and intelligent proto-dragons - Alexstrasza, Malygos, Neltharion, Nozdormu, and Ysera - that held dominion over their brethren, they defeated the massive proto-dragon known as Galakrond.

Because of this and their courage, Tyr suggested to the other Keepers to empower them and make them defenders of Azeroth as they proved they were able to stand for the planet. Odyn disagreed, and forbid the other Keepers to proceed with that idea, but they decided to go against him. They reached out to the Pantheon and each of the titans blessed the proto-dragons with a portion of their vast power, channeled through the Keepers.

Do you realise that this quote and your last one are contradictory? One says that Tyr was wounded and did not join the fight, while the other states that Tyr stood against Galakrond with the help of the Aspects...

Where in Legacies Chapter 1 do you see Keepers infusing the Aspects? Nowhere. How the Keepers would contact the Titans? Its a lie. They could not. They were gone.

- - - Updated - - -

Did it say he was infusing them with it? I rushed through that quest last night but I was under the impression that he was studying how the protodrakes were changing and how it affected them, not him forcing it onto them.

Make your own conclusions from the text of the quest:

Air:
Hologram Tyr says: Infused with the element of air, this dragon has gained the ability to express gusts of wind from its body, resulting in an effective, if rudimentary, deterrent for nearby foes.
Hologram Tyr says: The fact that this does not result in an equal, but opposing force applied to the dragon implies the process is innately magical as opposed to mechanical.

Fire:
Hologram Tyr says: The element of fire has seen one of the most successful adoption rates of the species, with subjects able to hurl globes of fire hot enough to melt metal.
Hologram Tyr says: Additionally, those infused with fire are responsible for more attempted outbreaks than the other proto-dragons combined.

Ice:
Hologram Tyr says: Infused with the element of water, this proto-dragon has lost its fire breathing capabilities and gained an equally lethal ability in its stead--the frozen possibilities of ice.
Hologram Tyr says: The fact that a proto-dragon's complete inversion of their elemental tendency is not only possible, but so thorough, generates an intriguing thought exercise.
Hologram Tyr says: Is there any element--or even energy--that, given appropriate conduit, vessel, and time, proto-dragons are unable to integrate?

Earth:
Hologram Tyr says: This proto-dragon has been imbued with the element of earth. It exhibits an increase in scale density with a minor reduction in flexibility compared to baseline proto-dragons.
Hologram Tyr says: Three separate incidents have been recorded where the dragon has nearly breached the containment sphere.

Naleidea Rivergleam says: From what we can tell, these discs are rich in information--
Toddy Whiskers says: -but not in answers.
Naleidea Rivergleam says: Tyr was cataloging the lifecycle and overall potency of the various proto-dragon phenotypes in the Dragon Isles, although for what purpose we're uncertain.
Naleidea Rivergleam says: In addition, he was keeping a considerable database on the role, disposition, and relative power of the Aspects.
Naleidea Rivergleam says: Tyr's interest in the Aspects seems logical, but the proto-dragons, somewhat less so.
Naleidea Rivergleam says: But the fact that he went to such lengths to keep this facility and its contents a secret--
Toddy Whiskers says: That's the real mystery.

[Koollan]

I for one find it plausible, if not probable, that Tyr had a Hand (heh) in the creation of not only the Aspects, but the Incarnates as well, considering what we learn in Renown 24 of DSE rep. As OP says, why only make one Incarnate of each element if they're so powerful? Genuinely, it would be much much more useful to make tens if not hundreds of Raszageths and Iridikrons. If they've 'made a bargain', then what is this bargain? Why is it keeping them from making more? I think it's much more likely that Tyr was the Incarnates' creator of sorts, creating a 'sisterhood' between the Incarnates and the Aspects, which honestly would make Raszageth's comment to Alexstrasza about calling her 'sister' a lot more apparent and sensible.

[Kokolums]

lore is permanently desstroyed. at any moment, the devs can rewrite it all and claim that what we used to know as fact as in fact just a view held from someones perspective. its pointless and frankly boring to argue about tyr or any wow lore.

[Eosia]

- DECAY. But DECAY was actually infused into a Proto Dragon. That would be Galakrond.

Galakrond was too much, one of Tyr's experiments which went south. Why would he appear in that time of need to help the Aspects? Just when Galakrond was a threath? He messed up and he needed help to set things right. Or did he? Maybe it was just another experiment. We do not know if the Primal Incarnates were created after or before the Aspects. Why the Primal Incarnates did not help the Aspects against Galakrond if they existed at that point? Maybe Tyr wanted to try how powerful his new Proto Infused Dragons would be, but this time, he will infuse them with more complicated forces, not with the basics elements of every planet:

Except from Progress Report: Uldoris, we know that Galakrond drank water that Yogg-Saron had contaminated.

[Darkarath]

Except from Progress Report: Uldoris, we know that Galakrond drank water that Yogg-Saron had contaminated.

Presumably written by Tyr, who could be blaming Yogg-Saron for his own experiments. He could also had infused him first and then Galakrond looked for other sources of power.

[Aucald]

I don't think Tyr created the Incarnates directly, and likely not intentionally, but I do think he had a role in their eventual creation nonetheless. His work into exploring how the proto-dragons naturally became infused with the elements very likely dovetailed with the work that was being done in Uldorus, namely the removal of Yogg-Saron's taunt from the waters of the lands that would later become the Dragon Isles, and also infusing said waters with energies more sympathetic to Order, the metacosmic sphere represented most directly by the Titans themselves. I theorize that the combination of Arcane/Order energies and elemental influences combined in the proto-dragons who would become the Primal Incarnates and escalated their evolution, so to speak, leading them to become ever more powerful and stabilizing their own internal energies.

In that way, I think Tyr ultimately had a role in creating the Incarnates as an unforeseen side-effect of the Keepers' meddling with dragonkind in order to prevent another Galakrond.

[Throwme]

Make your own conclusions from the text of the quest:

Thank you for pointing out the things that disproves your own theory

"Tyr was cataloging"
"he was keeping a considerable database"

That is the description of someone doing research, not conducting experiments.

Also, at no point does he say "I infused this PD with this element", only "this PD has been infused with this element". That's something a person studying things would say, not someone creating things.

[Darkarath]

Thank you for pointing out the things that disproves your own theory

"Tyr was cataloging"
"he was keeping a considerable database"

That is the description of someone doing research, not conducting experiments.

Also, at no point does he say "I infused this PD with this element", only "this PD has been infused with this element". That's something a person studying things would say, not someone creating things.

I understand your point of view and it could definitively be correct. Yet research and experimentation go together. We know that Tyr infused Proto-Dragons with Order, do you think that there was not previous or post iterations with other elements? Why would he stop with Order? He would naturally infuse Proto-Dragons with other elements to see what effects they have on them, which were the stronger, if he could control them or not... ''Cataloging''.

Clearly both points of view are valid. Which is the correct one, only time will tell.