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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    On top of that the gearing system in Legion was simply more fun. People hated the heavy rng with Legendaries and Titanforging but realistically it made ALL content relevant.
    Titanforging offended the MMO puritans, the people who cannot stand when someone gets a reward they don't deserve.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Titanforging offended the MMO puritans, the people who cannot stand when someone gets a reward they don't deserve.
    Yea. And now you just buy a carry to push your rating to 2.4k and upgrade everything with 2s spam.

  3. #303
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    Main issue atm is the in DF they made gearing fast and predictable with all these options and 0 rng in terms of Legendaries or Titanforging. Well what happens if you have predictable and fast gearing and at the same time it being the only content you have? It gets boring fast and you don't really have much desire to gear an alt.
    But it also gives an fixed "end-point". You reach the end and can choose to switch to another character or even to another game. Why would you want to be tied down to 1 game months on end? Especially if grinding daily/weekly for very minor power gains. Sure it's 0.1% more power than you had last week but it's only after 10 weeks before you actually see a 1% increase in power.



    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    On top of that the gearing system in Legion was simply more fun. People hated the heavy rng with Legendaries and Titanforging but realistically it made ALL content relevant. Even world quests were farmed by me and friends/guildies partially because of potential titanforging stuff and them being so easy to get done (+paragon cache).
    More fun? All I saw was more burn out. Grinding endlessly for that AP and doing "chores" because maybe if you're lucky, BLP will reward you with a good legion legendary instead of the many shit ones. Eventually this became less of an issue once a currency was offered so you could literally buy the "right" legendary. But then that just shifted the game back to WotLK welfare badges... Go do X for Y currency to get Z gear. Repeat as necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    We also got 10x NEW dungeons (with M+) at the start of the expansion and on top of that 4 more till the end. Now we get 4 new and 4 rehashed. A really poor downgrade.
    Your math is wrong. We got 8 DF dungeons so far. Granted only 4 of them are M+ but even with the dungeons in Legion (including ones in later patches), not all of them were M+.

    For instance, Violet Hold was NEVER a M+ dungeon. Additionally, you're missing the larger point of why we only have 4 (DF) dungeons in the M+, aka Dungeon Fatigue. Legion, BFA and SL suffered from running the same dungeons (in M+) over the entire length of the expansion. At least in DF, we switch out the 4 DF dungeons for the other 4 DF dungeons in the next season.

    BiS trinkets will change, we'll need to find the "best" routes for the other dungeons. Will Brackenhide be the F tier dungeon for season 2? Or will it be Uldman?


    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    Then we also had Suramar a well thought out questline and zone.
    Suramar the rep gated zone? Where you needed to do your daily chore of farming for rep to advance the storyline? Also that rep had to be farmed on MULTIPLE characters because it wasn't an account-wide unlock (until later patches).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    Now compare all this do Dragonflight. Boring gearing, no purpose to actually gear besides repeating M+ over and over and over with higher levels or raiding. And Mythic raid is still inaccessible with 20m no crossrealm from the start.
    Has Mythic Raiding ever been open to cross realm at the start for any expansion when the raid was new? Remember SL Season 4 was a special case and technically the "fated" raids were no longer new.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    No endgame zone
    Maybe not a zone but there are areas in each zone that are end-game or at least lv 70+ mobs where you get killed if you go when not 70.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    , no Artifacts
    But no artifact power grind either. As much good artifacts are in aesthetic design they also had a horrible AP grind attached to them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    awesome transmogs to progress for,
    You take that back, those tuskarr backpacks are great. Joking aside, Trading post offerings are bringing monthly wares. And yes progression through trading post is easy but that's the point, accessibility to a wider audience instead of just the no-lifers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    Its boring. There is no purpose. They removed all content and people are cheering for it. A boring gear treadmill so you can get 1 title and a special effect on your shoulders/helm. Maybe a mount. And the journey is boring and repetetive.
    The problem is that some players (like yourself) want WoW to be the all-encompassing game that you spend all your time with. But that is no longer feasible. There are way too many competing games (and other stuff) that is vying for players attention and instead of tying you down to WoW, DF allows you to be finished (for now) so you can go do other things and come back when they have more content for you.

    That's a good thing. I think many players would like to be able to reach a fixed "end-point" so they aren't FOMO stuck in WoW.

    Additionally, if folks want to continue to compare/contrast DF to prior expansion do realize that you're trying to compare a new expansion to older ones where you've seen all the "extras" they've added.

    Circling back to the dungeons bit - We know DF is getting another mega dungeon. And that dungeon will be split into 2 for M+ which expands the M+ pool by 2. Sure it may only be 6 (DF) dungeons + 4 older ones instead of what was done previously in SL, BFA, and Legion.

    Moreover, we already know that the Dracthyr starting zone will become an end-game zone in a future content patch. Along with (possibly) an underground zone (Deepholm 2.0?).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Titanforging offended the MMO puritans, the people who cannot stand when someone gets a reward they don't deserve.
    Sure that's some of it but it also means more "chores" to do. Think about it, if TF can propel an item to Mythic Raid level (or whatever the highest gear level there is) and it can proc from any source of loot drops. Determined players will do ALL the content repeatedly for that chance of player power.

    Just look at the lengths players are going to now for farming Sparks paired with farming up concentrated primal infusions for basically 418 gear. Sure it's not as high as loot from mythic raid from the end bosses (I think that's 424?) but players will do it.

    Realize that wow players (especially min/maxers) will suck the "fun" out of any WoW system to gain as much player power as possible. This is why we can't have "nicer" things in WoW.
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  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Titanforging offended the MMO puritans, the people who cannot stand when someone gets a reward they don't deserve.
    I recall the angry players back then, and I never understood it? Like who cares about Titanforging, if someone get an item and then it went up 15 iLvls due to TF, ok...cool whatever. Good for them.

    But man players were so upset over that, and I never knew why?

  5. #305
    The main goal of WoW is to be better than everybody else. RNG ruins that.

  6. #306
    @Alroxas
    The multi quote thing is too garbage in this forum so I have to reply with 1. 2. ...

    1. Its already like this with the Vault. If you want to maximize your loot you still gotta wait and be lucky every week unless you got lucky in Mythic Raid. Its just much less exciting now. Also being done in terms of ilvl is fine if there is other challenging/meaningful content to do like Artifact Weapon Transmogs, Mage Tower and more. But here simply isn't. iLvL was the journey here and its pretty boring.

    2. As I said it need to be toned down. In a nerfed version you still have the excitement of a random drop but could also target the most important ones. As it was at the end of the expansion.

    3. Rehashed dungeons are less effort end less original. They covered it up with "dungeon fatigue" which is valid in some way but its also very cheap to rehash old dungeons. Even then they are buggy and terribly balanced between each other. Even without Violet Hold we had afaik 9 M+ at the start or shortly after that. And also got Karazhan in 7.1. Well see how DF turns out but I bet we will only get 1 Mega Dungeon that gets split up and thats it until 11.0.

    4. And yet an interesting and well designed zone. Yes it shouldve been Account Wide but thats not the point here. We had these issues until DF with account wide stuff.

    5. Its not that it was the case in Legion. In Legion we simply had enough content that it didn't matter. However after so many years they still gatekeep that mode underneath their terrible 20m decision back in WoD + no crossrealm even though we have cross faction and know that servers and factions suffer hard under this. I can write a whole page why its such a bad design but it would be too much right now. Back then it was an excuse for them to do less work. They said they wanted to design bosses focused on specific class utility and they barely did. It was a lie from the beginning and they sacrificed a ton of 10m guilds that were focused on friends and family, less roster boss more mechanics and fun.

    6. Ok I rephrase then. Legion had 5 zones, DF has 4. Suramar was specifically designed for max lvl with a hub you built up. That doesn't exist in DF so far. The forbidden reach is also rehashed from the Dracthyrs, I dont have much faith in it being good. Only the Vault seems half decent.

    7. Agreed the Artifact grind was terrible. But im not saying that we need Artifact Power grind back but something similar without power attached. The focus here was on the awesome transmogs and content you got out of it. They could easily do something like that again with class halls and specific special weapons you obtain for your class/spec. Maybe improvable in some way by doing content but nothing like AP grind. They could do the same with class specific armor/mounts/quests/spell visuals. There is so much potential and we get dog backpacks and Vanilla Centaur helmets.

    8. Yea it needs to be balanced. But we already have boring renown farm for transmog. Where are the challenges to gain awesome transmog like the Mage Tower and other Artifact Weapon like stuff?

    9. People want to be done with GEAR. Optional content like transmogs/titles/mounts/challenges that are not tied to player power should be there plentiful. Thats what an MMO is about. Or does everyone feel obliged to farm renowns to max? No because they are purely optional. Mage Tower was also optional just like all Artifact Mogs.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    The main goal of WoW is to be better than everybody else. RNG ruins that.
    WoW is a RPG PVE game ( except for deathmatch PvP ) you only need to be better than the monsters you're fighting. So if a Titanforge item increases the iLvl of an item by +15, that's good. Why be upset at that?

  8. #308
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    I recall the angry players back then, and I never understood it? Like who cares about Titanforging, if someone get an item and then it went up 15 iLvls due to TF, ok...cool whatever. Good for them.

    But man players were so upset over that, and I never knew why?
    Because those complaints usually come from wannabe WFR folks, i.e. people without even a vestige of self-control, so they feel "forced" (my favourite buzzword) to obsessively farm content they hate just in order to squeeze 0.3% extra DPS... Only to continue wiping on the 3rd or 4th mythic boss until the usual barrage of nerfs comes to save the day.

  9. #309
    I think it was during Uldir, in a somewhat casual guild that finished Heroic and moved on to Mythic. Disenchanting the loot from the first several bosses because everyone already had better due to Vault (chest at the time) and Titanforging sure was a massive feel bad moment.

    So yes, I'm happy Titanforging is gone and it has nothing to do with 'omg others can get gear they don't deserve'.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  10. #310
    Its essentially a m+ simulator at this point.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    The main goal of WoW is to be pretend like you're better than everybody else. RNG ruins that.
    fixed that for you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    I recall the angry players back then, and I never understood it? Like who cares about Titanforging, if someone get an item and then it went up 15 iLvls due to TF, ok...cool whatever. Good for them.

    But man players were so upset over that, and I never knew why?
    pure and simple: because raiders thought that the act of raiding meant they were exclusively entitled to a strata of ilevel on items that everyone else should be specifically excluded from.
    to a raider, if all your gear was ilevel 400 but you had one item that was 425 from a titan forge, you were cheating and your existence made raiding pointless.

    100% of people mad about titan-forging are asscunts who prolapsed their vaginas over hard hard they were crying about how unfair the world is to them because somebody who isn't them had a single item they liked.

  12. #312
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    I recall the angry players back then, and I never understood it? Like who cares about Titanforging, if someone get an item and then it went up 15 iLvls due to TF, ok...cool whatever. Good for them.

    But man players were so upset over that, and I never knew why?
    Much of it was just the usual gamer circlejerk, where something is decided by some influencer to be bad and suddenly everyone harps how bad it is.

    IMO, TF was fine - it gave excitement over drops in farm raid. And I say this as Mythic Raider since forever, I personally never really cared that Billy got some juicy TF in his Normal run and had one of 14 item slots populated by some mouthwatering item. But some thought it was some kind of sacrilege.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2023-02-21 at 11:08 AM.

  13. #313
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    I recall the angry players back then, and I never understood it? Like who cares about Titanforging, if someone get an item and then it went up 15 iLvls due to TF, ok...cool whatever. Good for them.

    But man players were so upset over that, and I never knew why?
    Because suddenly mythic raiders needed to do LFR, Normal, and heroic for chance at titanforging a mythic piece.
    I mean do you forget the arcano crystal which people farmed every time they could cause that thing if it procced titanforge could become by far the best trinket.

  14. #314
    "It's not enough that I should succeed, others should fail."

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinx View Post
    I think it's amazing. I can spend my time playing other games or doing other interesting things between content patches then, instead of farming Korthia rares for 2 hours per day to not fall behind on item progression. The one thing that has killed WoW's subscription numbers these past expansions is forcing people to do a bunch of content they hate, just to have a character that's viable for the content they want to do. And cancerous borrowed power grinds that require daily chores in order to not fall behind on character progression is one of the core issues in that regard.
    Did you just say borrowed power killed subs when, from what we can infer from data, subscription numbers only increased after Legion and are now back down again with DF?

    Like, we are steadily losing subs for a few expansions and WoD nearly kills the game, then they release Legion, BfA, and SL, and they all break records and revitalize people's interest in the game, and for some reason you think the central feature of those expansions killed subs?

    I get it, borrowed power sucks, it should have never been ''borowed". They should have let us keep the artifacts. But what's important is that people had a way to progress in the game without just raiding once a week and then playing other games. Legion was the winning formula. They fucked up by trying to fix things that were not broken. People could log in whenever they want and have fun because there was stuff to do. What do you do in DF when you are done with your weekly raid? Are you not tired of making soup?

    DF failed to get people excited for the game. It offers nothing to people who call Legion their favorite expansion. People are already getting sick of it and it's only gonna get worse because we are at least 3 months away from the next big content patch. Could be even more than that. At this point in Legion you were already done with EN and you were clearing Karazhan and ToV, and Nighthold was coming out next month. DF is closer to SL than Legion in that regard. Far from a game-saving expansion. But it is perfect for you and people who want to pay sub just to play a raid simulator once a week.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Because suddenly mythic raiders needed to do LFR, Normal, and heroic for chance at titanforging a mythic piece.
    I mean do you forget the arcano crystal which people farmed every time they could cause that thing if it procced titanforge could become by far the best trinket.
    And that was amazing. Content was relevant. You could still find groups looking to clear EN and ToV in 7.3 because they could get good loot from them. Raids did not last one patch. Are we complaining that people had a reason to play the game? We were drowning in content. But if you think that's bad it's no wonder you like DF.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Because suddenly mythic raiders needed invented the fantasy that they needed to do LFR, Normal, and heroic for chance at titanforging a mythic piece.
    fixed that for you.
    this mentality was a classic case of "if content exists, there will be people who imagine a gun is being held to their head forcing them to do it"

  17. #317
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    fixed that for you.
    this mentality was a classic case of "if content exists, there will be people who imagine a gun is being held to their head forcing them to do it"
    Except they did, cause there was a chance of getting insanely powerful gear from these sources. And for the race to world or server first you needed every chance you could get. Especially for tier.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Except they did, cause there was a chance of getting insanely powerful gear from these sources. And for the race to world or server first you needed every chance you could get. Especially for tier.
    Give me one good reason why we should cater to all 200 world first racers.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Except they did, cause there was a chance of getting insanely powerful gear from these sources. And for the race to world or server first you needed every chance you could get. Especially for tier.
    the desire to push for world or server first is a thing that exists, but the desire for world or server first is not a threat or an act of coercion on the part of the devs when systems exist that allow the other 99.999% of the playerbase to get marginal upgrades during normal play.

    i will unwaveringly insist that the whole mentality of "if there's a 0.001% chance i get a 0.01% upgrade i MUST repetitively do the most boring content i can find until i hate the game" is a delusion that exists only in the minds of a very few sick people, BUT i do acknowledge that this sickness is real.

    however even conceding that the delusion exists for some people, i maintain that it's better for more people to have those systems in the game than not.
    a few no-lifers being unable to stop themselves from masochistic gameplay styles for infinitesimal stat margins that only last for 3 months to try and chase bragging rights to an accomplishment nobody will remember 8 seconds after it has happened is not a valid reason to subject millions of other people to a more boring gaming experience.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    fixed that for you.
    this mentality was a classic case of "if content exists, there will be people who imagine a gun is being held to their head forcing them to do it"
    In reality, Blizz set up this scenario when they could've fixed it, as it's the result of multiple difficulties of raids layered with M+ gear scaling and all the gear in all content being of the same power regardless of content.

    The issue comes down to the path of least resistance. It's no surprise that players will take the easiest path when it comes to gearing for mythic raids. There's several angles that one could approach this topic, too, as you could view it as a gear/scaling issues with mythic raiding or gear drop/scaling balance across all end game content or any number of potential problems. However, they all boil down to people not wanting to waste their time, and often the path of least resistance is way too lucrative despite falling outside your potential end game.

    So if mythic raiders felt the need to do non-mythic raiding and M+ in order to do mythic raiding, that likely means the path of least resistance to doing your preferred end-game content was through content you didn't want to do. So how could've Blizz fixed this? Depends on your goals, honestly. I've been a fan of capping gear at heroic ilvl in a world where mythic raiding exists, tuning mythic raiding around having full heroic ilvl gear, and have mythic raiding drop non-power gain items (cosmetics, xmog, etc.) or just drop more heroic ilvl loot than heroic. If that's not meeting your goals, have tier set bonuses not tied to gear (think a glyph system), or have tier set bonuses not work outside their respective content in the case of M+... could even go so far as there's no 1:1 overlap in gear, similar to how PvP power didn't work in PvE, so PvP gear was almost always the best gear for PvP while PvE gear was almost always the best for PvE. Heck, Blizz could just cut back on the difficulty of raids as a whole so the gear doesn't matter nearly as much, along with stopping their constant tuning of the raid around the RWF and Hall of Fame.

    Frankly, there's tons of solutions to their problems, but either there's not a will to address the problems (or Blizz is just stubborn, which the last couple of expansions has shown to be a huge issue) or a lack of creativity to push the game to a better spot when it comes to these issues. If there's finger-pointing to be made, I'd point at Ion. Sure, easy target, but a lot of the policies and design direction that has received a lot of backlash the past few expansions were Ion's policies, especially when it comes to things like mythic raiding or raiding as a whole.


    Quote Originally Posted by JustaRandomReindeer View Post
    Give me one good reason why we should cater to all 200 world first racers.
    The game shouldn't, but many aspects of the game (especially when it comes to time wasting issues) certainly do. I don't think anyone can deny that the mythic raid is tuned specifically for RWF, then progressively nerfed over time based either upon time or meeting certain events (X number of guilds clearing mythic, Hall of Fame fills up, etc.). Ultimately, that's done to placate the top raiders... and it adversely effects everyone at the same time. Blizz has even admitted they do it so the raid isn't cleared to quickly... but who cares if it is? The irony is even the top raiders don't want their time wasted, either, so everyone loses out.

    However, this extends well beyond tuning of the mythic raid itself. This sort of mentality affects gear scaling, content scaling outside of mythic raids, gear drop rates and acquisition methods outside of mythic raids, and so much more. The net result is that many people have started to feel like WoW is wasting their time, and not in a fun or good way. It's the difference between designing the game to force people to play longer, versus people wanting to play longer because they're having fun.
    Last edited by exochaft; 2023-02-21 at 02:51 PM.
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