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  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    I'd say with their design since Shadowlands you'll always be bored after about 2 months. Their content simply doesn't entertain you for any longer period of time.

    People hated on Titanforging & AP, but guess what? Those things gave you meaningful character progression even late into a patch.

    Now? After about 2 months or so, your power progression comes to a virtual standstill. Sure you can repeat the things you've already done on an alt or two, but it's just the same thing you've already done. It's bad design and a snoozefest.


    People play for gear and power and the moment people can no longer get gear or power the game dies.
    I think it's amazing. I can spend my time playing other games or doing other interesting things between content patches then, instead of farming Korthia rares for 2 hours per day to not fall behind on item progression. The one thing that has killed WoW's subscription numbers these past expansions is forcing people to do a bunch of content they hate, just to have a character that's viable for the content they want to do. And cancerous borrowed power grinds that require daily chores in order to not fall behind on character progression is one of the core issues in that regard.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    Been playing WoW since launch all these years, and it's a fav game of mine obviously. But I've had my off times and addicted times to the game, but all these years I typically still play nightly if just for 30 to 45 minutes.

    Use to Raid and play [H]ardcore from MoP through Legion, playing hours a night, but those times are gone.

    Anyways, Dragonflight, was so excited to get a new expansion after Shadowlands, which I found depressing and lame, and so far DF is an upgrade and feels fun and looks great. But...2 months later after Dragonflights release, I'm getting bored already. My main is iLvl 391, and I have another at i360+, and several alts in the level 60+ level range. But right now, I just feel stuck in a rut in the game, not interested in getting my main any higher gear at this point, I'm happy enough doing M+10, but not higher, and I stopped Raiding long ago.

    My alts, I was progressing getting most of them to level 65 or so, but now it feels like a grind to push them to all to 70.

    I know there's the patch today, which will help give something new to do, which is great for WoW, they need mini patches like this often. Because without today's patch I prob would unsub for a bit.

    I would say the last expansion I was truly addicted to and LOVED was Legion, that one had so much to do outside of just Raids, the Class Halls, the artifact weapon appearances, the Class mounts, I felt like I always had something to do in Legion.

    Thing is, I do like Dragonflight, it's beautiful to look at, and I am enjoying it, but I feel like I hit a wall of boredom quicker than usual in a new expansion.
    Getting bored after 2-3 months is pretty normal for me. The same happened to me in every expansion besides Legion where I was consistently invested with the exception of 7.2. I am usually the most active when the expansion is actually finished, because this is the time where it is the best to level up alts and gear those up.

    I'd say the main difference between DF and SL is that at least in DF you can quit "in peace" easier, because you know that you're not falling behind on anything when you're bored of playing (and can pick up again later on easily), while in SL many people would continue playing for just a little bit longer, because of FOMO.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    I mean, 2 months of gameplay is pretty good, isn't it?

    And I say that as someone who quit WoW.
    Yeah that's a very solid time all things considered and money well spent compared to RPG's. For example, I just finished playing Hogwarts Legacy, great game and all that, but I was done with it in like a week of constantly playing it and I don't regret paying 70€ for it. Meanwhile with WoW, if you pay for 2 months and buy DF that's also about the same as a AAA game would cost you, but you actually get so much more playtime out of it, so even when WoW was at a low, I have never really regretted paying for it, because I still got so much out of it.

  3. #303
    Main issue atm is the in DF they made gearing fast and predictable with all these options and 0 rng in terms of Legendaries or Titanforging. Well what happens if you have predictable and fast gearing and at the same time it being the only content you have? It gets boring fast and you don't really have much desire to gear an alt.

    Legion was 10x better simply because it has 12x class campaigns + 36 Artifact weapons that came with all their different skins you could obtain throughout various different content. Be it one of the hidden transmogs where the community had to find out how to get it or simply long quest chains, world boss rotations, PvP, etc. Those artifacts mogs were mostly really well done and gave people a reason to gear a character and do other content since transmog/style isn't temporary as ilvl is. This is completely missing in DF. You get your underwhelming / bad transmogs from reps and thats about it.

    On top of that the gearing system in Legion was simply more fun. People hated the heavy rng with Legendaries and Titanforging but realistically it made ALL content relevant. Even world quests were farmed by me and friends/guildies partially because of potential titanforging stuff and them being so easy to get done (+paragon cache).
    Its funny because they only had to reduce the rng impacts on both of those systems and it would have been a good addition to gearing. Legendaries being targetable after farming 2 weeks + the additional rng drop, that way you wouldn't be behind months if you didn't have your bis Legendary. And Titanforging had to be dialed down a bit to not be too extreme or simply make it upgradable in some form as well. I hate to say it but gearing was a lot more fun back then because all content was attractive more or less. The only really bad aspect was the Artifact Power grind. Current classes fair much better in DF.

    Then we also had features like Mage Tower + Class Mounts that were again really well thought out because you had a potenital 12x questlines to do if you wanted those mounts which were unique. And the Mage Tower was simply amazing as a challenge on top of a unique prestige reward. Here you got the perfect motivation to gear your characters so the Mage Tower challenge got easier.

    We also got 10x NEW dungeons (with M+) at the start of the expansion and on top of that 4 more till the end. Now we get 4 new and 4 rehashed. A really poor downgrade. Then we also had Suramar a well thought out questline and zone. Class Halls that could be upgraded + Mission Tables that were actually decent in comparison to trash Shadowlands tables. It also helped that World Quests and M+ were completely new features.

    Now compare all this do Dragonflight. Boring gearing, no purpose to actually gear besides repeating M+ over and over and over with higher levels or raiding. And Mythic raid is still inaccessible with 20m no crossrealm from the start. So whats left? Nothing. No endgame zone, no Artifacts or awesome transmogs to progress for, no Class Halls, far less campaigns (and far less interesting imo). I got my character to 417ilvl and wonder for what? There is nothing to do. I got 2.7k+ score in M+ and am bored to hell with it. Why do more repetetive keys? Its boring. There is no purpose. They removed all content and people are cheering for it. A boring gear treadmill so you can get 1 title and a special effect on your shoulders/helm. Maybe a mount. And the journey is boring and repetetive.
    If they don't tune up the content soon ill be gone.
    Last edited by Arai; 2023-02-20 at 02:39 PM.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    On top of that the gearing system in Legion was simply more fun. People hated the heavy rng with Legendaries and Titanforging but realistically it made ALL content relevant.
    Titanforging offended the MMO puritans, the people who cannot stand when someone gets a reward they don't deserve.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Titanforging offended the MMO puritans, the people who cannot stand when someone gets a reward they don't deserve.
    Yea. And now you just buy a carry to push your rating to 2.4k and upgrade everything with 2s spam.

  6. #306
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    Main issue atm is the in DF they made gearing fast and predictable with all these options and 0 rng in terms of Legendaries or Titanforging. Well what happens if you have predictable and fast gearing and at the same time it being the only content you have? It gets boring fast and you don't really have much desire to gear an alt.
    But it also gives an fixed "end-point". You reach the end and can choose to switch to another character or even to another game. Why would you want to be tied down to 1 game months on end? Especially if grinding daily/weekly for very minor power gains. Sure it's 0.1% more power than you had last week but it's only after 10 weeks before you actually see a 1% increase in power.



    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    On top of that the gearing system in Legion was simply more fun. People hated the heavy rng with Legendaries and Titanforging but realistically it made ALL content relevant. Even world quests were farmed by me and friends/guildies partially because of potential titanforging stuff and them being so easy to get done (+paragon cache).
    More fun? All I saw was more burn out. Grinding endlessly for that AP and doing "chores" because maybe if you're lucky, BLP will reward you with a good legion legendary instead of the many shit ones. Eventually this became less of an issue once a currency was offered so you could literally buy the "right" legendary. But then that just shifted the game back to WotLK welfare badges... Go do X for Y currency to get Z gear. Repeat as necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    We also got 10x NEW dungeons (with M+) at the start of the expansion and on top of that 4 more till the end. Now we get 4 new and 4 rehashed. A really poor downgrade.
    Your math is wrong. We got 8 DF dungeons so far. Granted only 4 of them are M+ but even with the dungeons in Legion (including ones in later patches), not all of them were M+.

    For instance, Violet Hold was NEVER a M+ dungeon. Additionally, you're missing the larger point of why we only have 4 (DF) dungeons in the M+, aka Dungeon Fatigue. Legion, BFA and SL suffered from running the same dungeons (in M+) over the entire length of the expansion. At least in DF, we switch out the 4 DF dungeons for the other 4 DF dungeons in the next season.

    BiS trinkets will change, we'll need to find the "best" routes for the other dungeons. Will Brackenhide be the F tier dungeon for season 2? Or will it be Uldman?


    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    Then we also had Suramar a well thought out questline and zone.
    Suramar the rep gated zone? Where you needed to do your daily chore of farming for rep to advance the storyline? Also that rep had to be farmed on MULTIPLE characters because it wasn't an account-wide unlock (until later patches).

    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    Now compare all this do Dragonflight. Boring gearing, no purpose to actually gear besides repeating M+ over and over and over with higher levels or raiding. And Mythic raid is still inaccessible with 20m no crossrealm from the start.
    Has Mythic Raiding ever been open to cross realm at the start for any expansion when the raid was new? Remember SL Season 4 was a special case and technically the "fated" raids were no longer new.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    No endgame zone
    Maybe not a zone but there are areas in each zone that are end-game or at least lv 70+ mobs where you get killed if you go when not 70.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    , no Artifacts
    But no artifact power grind either. As much good artifacts are in aesthetic design they also had a horrible AP grind attached to them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    awesome transmogs to progress for,
    You take that back, those tuskarr backpacks are great. Joking aside, Trading post offerings are bringing monthly wares. And yes progression through trading post is easy but that's the point, accessibility to a wider audience instead of just the no-lifers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arai View Post
    Its boring. There is no purpose. They removed all content and people are cheering for it. A boring gear treadmill so you can get 1 title and a special effect on your shoulders/helm. Maybe a mount. And the journey is boring and repetetive.
    The problem is that some players (like yourself) want WoW to be the all-encompassing game that you spend all your time with. But that is no longer feasible. There are way too many competing games (and other stuff) that is vying for players attention and instead of tying you down to WoW, DF allows you to be finished (for now) so you can go do other things and come back when they have more content for you.

    That's a good thing. I think many players would like to be able to reach a fixed "end-point" so they aren't FOMO stuck in WoW.

    Additionally, if folks want to continue to compare/contrast DF to prior expansion do realize that you're trying to compare a new expansion to older ones where you've seen all the "extras" they've added.

    Circling back to the dungeons bit - We know DF is getting another mega dungeon. And that dungeon will be split into 2 for M+ which expands the M+ pool by 2. Sure it may only be 6 (DF) dungeons + 4 older ones instead of what was done previously in SL, BFA, and Legion.

    Moreover, we already know that the Dracthyr starting zone will become an end-game zone in a future content patch. Along with (possibly) an underground zone (Deepholm 2.0?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Titanforging offended the MMO puritans, the people who cannot stand when someone gets a reward they don't deserve.
    Sure that's some of it but it also means more "chores" to do. Think about it, if TF can propel an item to Mythic Raid level (or whatever the highest gear level there is) and it can proc from any source of loot drops. Determined players will do ALL the content repeatedly for that chance of player power.

    Just look at the lengths players are going to now for farming Sparks paired with farming up concentrated primal infusions for basically 418 gear. Sure it's not as high as loot from mythic raid from the end bosses (I think that's 424?) but players will do it.

    Realize that wow players (especially min/maxers) will suck the "fun" out of any WoW system to gain as much player power as possible. This is why we can't have "nicer" things in WoW.
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  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Titanforging offended the MMO puritans, the people who cannot stand when someone gets a reward they don't deserve.
    I recall the angry players back then, and I never understood it? Like who cares about Titanforging, if someone get an item and then it went up 15 iLvls due to TF, ok...cool whatever. Good for them.

    But man players were so upset over that, and I never knew why?

  8. #308
    The main goal of WoW is to be better than everybody else. RNG ruins that.

  9. #309
    @Alroxas
    The multi quote thing is too garbage in this forum so I have to reply with 1. 2. ...

    1. Its already like this with the Vault. If you want to maximize your loot you still gotta wait and be lucky every week unless you got lucky in Mythic Raid. Its just much less exciting now. Also being done in terms of ilvl is fine if there is other challenging/meaningful content to do like Artifact Weapon Transmogs, Mage Tower and more. But here simply isn't. iLvL was the journey here and its pretty boring.

    2. As I said it need to be toned down. In a nerfed version you still have the excitement of a random drop but could also target the most important ones. As it was at the end of the expansion.

    3. Rehashed dungeons are less effort end less original. They covered it up with "dungeon fatigue" which is valid in some way but its also very cheap to rehash old dungeons. Even then they are buggy and terribly balanced between each other. Even without Violet Hold we had afaik 9 M+ at the start or shortly after that. And also got Karazhan in 7.1. Well see how DF turns out but I bet we will only get 1 Mega Dungeon that gets split up and thats it until 11.0.

    4. And yet an interesting and well designed zone. Yes it shouldve been Account Wide but thats not the point here. We had these issues until DF with account wide stuff.

    5. Its not that it was the case in Legion. In Legion we simply had enough content that it didn't matter. However after so many years they still gatekeep that mode underneath their terrible 20m decision back in WoD + no crossrealm even though we have cross faction and know that servers and factions suffer hard under this. I can write a whole page why its such a bad design but it would be too much right now. Back then it was an excuse for them to do less work. They said they wanted to design bosses focused on specific class utility and they barely did. It was a lie from the beginning and they sacrificed a ton of 10m guilds that were focused on friends and family, less roster boss more mechanics and fun.

    6. Ok I rephrase then. Legion had 5 zones, DF has 4. Suramar was specifically designed for max lvl with a hub you built up. That doesn't exist in DF so far. The forbidden reach is also rehashed from the Dracthyrs, I dont have much faith in it being good. Only the Vault seems half decent.

    7. Agreed the Artifact grind was terrible. But im not saying that we need Artifact Power grind back but something similar without power attached. The focus here was on the awesome transmogs and content you got out of it. They could easily do something like that again with class halls and specific special weapons you obtain for your class/spec. Maybe improvable in some way by doing content but nothing like AP grind. They could do the same with class specific armor/mounts/quests/spell visuals. There is so much potential and we get dog backpacks and Vanilla Centaur helmets.

    8. Yea it needs to be balanced. But we already have boring renown farm for transmog. Where are the challenges to gain awesome transmog like the Mage Tower and other Artifact Weapon like stuff?

    9. People want to be done with GEAR. Optional content like transmogs/titles/mounts/challenges that are not tied to player power should be there plentiful. Thats what an MMO is about. Or does everyone feel obliged to farm renowns to max? No because they are purely optional. Mage Tower was also optional just like all Artifact Mogs.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    The main goal of WoW is to be better than everybody else. RNG ruins that.
    WoW is a RPG PVE game ( except for deathmatch PvP ) you only need to be better than the monsters you're fighting. So if a Titanforge item increases the iLvl of an item by +15, that's good. Why be upset at that?

  11. #311
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    I recall the angry players back then, and I never understood it? Like who cares about Titanforging, if someone get an item and then it went up 15 iLvls due to TF, ok...cool whatever. Good for them.

    But man players were so upset over that, and I never knew why?
    Because those complaints usually come from wannabe WFR folks, i.e. people without even a vestige of self-control, so they feel "forced" (my favourite buzzword) to obsessively farm content they hate just in order to squeeze 0.3% extra DPS... Only to continue wiping on the 3rd or 4th mythic boss until the usual barrage of nerfs comes to save the day.

  12. #312
    I think it was during Uldir, in a somewhat casual guild that finished Heroic and moved on to Mythic. Disenchanting the loot from the first several bosses because everyone already had better due to Vault (chest at the time) and Titanforging sure was a massive feel bad moment.

    So yes, I'm happy Titanforging is gone and it has nothing to do with 'omg others can get gear they don't deserve'.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  13. #313
    Its essentially a m+ simulator at this point.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Dilbon View Post
    The main goal of WoW is to be pretend like you're better than everybody else. RNG ruins that.
    fixed that for you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    I recall the angry players back then, and I never understood it? Like who cares about Titanforging, if someone get an item and then it went up 15 iLvls due to TF, ok...cool whatever. Good for them.

    But man players were so upset over that, and I never knew why?
    pure and simple: because raiders thought that the act of raiding meant they were exclusively entitled to a strata of ilevel on items that everyone else should be specifically excluded from.
    to a raider, if all your gear was ilevel 400 but you had one item that was 425 from a titan forge, you were cheating and your existence made raiding pointless.

    100% of people mad about titan-forging are asscunts who prolapsed their vaginas over hard hard they were crying about how unfair the world is to them because somebody who isn't them had a single item they liked.

  15. #315
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    I recall the angry players back then, and I never understood it? Like who cares about Titanforging, if someone get an item and then it went up 15 iLvls due to TF, ok...cool whatever. Good for them.

    But man players were so upset over that, and I never knew why?
    Much of it was just the usual gamer circlejerk, where something is decided by some influencer to be bad and suddenly everyone harps how bad it is.

    IMO, TF was fine - it gave excitement over drops in farm raid. And I say this as Mythic Raider since forever, I personally never really cared that Billy got some juicy TF in his Normal run and had one of 14 item slots populated by some mouthwatering item. But some thought it was some kind of sacrilege.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2023-02-21 at 11:08 AM.

  16. #316
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorachus View Post
    I recall the angry players back then, and I never understood it? Like who cares about Titanforging, if someone get an item and then it went up 15 iLvls due to TF, ok...cool whatever. Good for them.

    But man players were so upset over that, and I never knew why?
    Because suddenly mythic raiders needed to do LFR, Normal, and heroic for chance at titanforging a mythic piece.
    I mean do you forget the arcano crystal which people farmed every time they could cause that thing if it procced titanforge could become by far the best trinket.
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Remove combat, Mobs, PvP, and Difficult Content

  17. #317
    "It's not enough that I should succeed, others should fail."

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinx View Post
    I think it's amazing. I can spend my time playing other games or doing other interesting things between content patches then, instead of farming Korthia rares for 2 hours per day to not fall behind on item progression. The one thing that has killed WoW's subscription numbers these past expansions is forcing people to do a bunch of content they hate, just to have a character that's viable for the content they want to do. And cancerous borrowed power grinds that require daily chores in order to not fall behind on character progression is one of the core issues in that regard.
    Did you just say borrowed power killed subs when, from what we can infer from data, subscription numbers only increased after Legion and are now back down again with DF?

    Like, we are steadily losing subs for a few expansions and WoD nearly kills the game, then they release Legion, BfA, and SL, and they all break records and revitalize people's interest in the game, and for some reason you think the central feature of those expansions killed subs?

    I get it, borrowed power sucks, it should have never been ''borowed". They should have let us keep the artifacts. But what's important is that people had a way to progress in the game without just raiding once a week and then playing other games. Legion was the winning formula. They fucked up by trying to fix things that were not broken. People could log in whenever they want and have fun because there was stuff to do. What do you do in DF when you are done with your weekly raid? Are you not tired of making soup?

    DF failed to get people excited for the game. It offers nothing to people who call Legion their favorite expansion. People are already getting sick of it and it's only gonna get worse because we are at least 3 months away from the next big content patch. Could be even more than that. At this point in Legion you were already done with EN and you were clearing Karazhan and ToV, and Nighthold was coming out next month. DF is closer to SL than Legion in that regard. Far from a game-saving expansion. But it is perfect for you and people who want to pay sub just to play a raid simulator once a week.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Because suddenly mythic raiders needed to do LFR, Normal, and heroic for chance at titanforging a mythic piece.
    I mean do you forget the arcano crystal which people farmed every time they could cause that thing if it procced titanforge could become by far the best trinket.
    And that was amazing. Content was relevant. You could still find groups looking to clear EN and ToV in 7.3 because they could get good loot from them. Raids did not last one patch. Are we complaining that people had a reason to play the game? We were drowning in content. But if you think that's bad it's no wonder you like DF.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Because suddenly mythic raiders needed invented the fantasy that they needed to do LFR, Normal, and heroic for chance at titanforging a mythic piece.
    fixed that for you.
    this mentality was a classic case of "if content exists, there will be people who imagine a gun is being held to their head forcing them to do it"

  20. #320
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    fixed that for you.
    this mentality was a classic case of "if content exists, there will be people who imagine a gun is being held to their head forcing them to do it"
    Except they did, cause there was a chance of getting insanely powerful gear from these sources. And for the race to world or server first you needed every chance you could get. Especially for tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Remove combat, Mobs, PvP, and Difficult Content

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