Bored after 2 months of DF

[BeepBoo]

you require Blizzard to baby sit you by NOT introducing them, so you don't have to do it, because you're unable to control yourself.

What you're expecting and wanting is essentially the problem with any organized system where it's just a gentleman's agreement to not do something that's offered. Just like in college where everyone always daydreams about everyone not showing up for a final, everyone taking a 0, and then the teacher curving the class as a result. We all KNOW beyond any doubt that there will be that one fuck who shows up and takes the exam, ruining the plan.

My point is: the only way to ensure a behavior doesn't happen and a rat race doesn't start surrounding said behavior is to not have the temptation in the first place. Wishing human psychology were different is a fools errand.

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I agree with this. Raiders should be an isolated community as much as possible, like lepers.

Hey, if it stops me from having to deal with other bullshit outside of raiding, I'm all for it. Raid logging and epeen stroking via DPS meters while raidlogging is literally the entire reason I play. I don't mind being isolated. I don't want overworld plebs near me, either.

[trapmaster]

first week of trying it and loathe it, it is just not the same anymore. It's dog water for suckers.

[Gaidax]

How you people can defend that abomination to prove your point is beyond me. It is, quite literally, the laziest event ever created for this game, yet you use it as an argument that "DF has content". The only conclusion I can draw from that is that you simply deserve all the shit quality things you get. I understand that you enjoy DF, and it's fine, but shit should be called shit, for the benefit of everyone who's playing this game. Everyone.

Ion is probably laughing his ass out while facepalming - imagine spending all these years trying to make up some grandioze new modes of play like Torg, Isles, Warfronts and what not... and in the end apparently soup was the pinnacle of it all.

I do think it's a crazy world here, with people praising DF for practically nothing, but hey guess that's what people wanted. /shrug

[Hobbidaggy]

What you're expecting and wanting is essentially the problem with any organized system where it's just a gentleman's agreement to not do something that's offered. Just like in college where everyone always daydreams about everyone not showing up for a final, everyone taking a 0, and then the teacher curving the class as a result. We all KNOW beyond any doubt that there will be that one fuck who shows up and takes the exam, ruining the plan.

My point is: the only way to ensure a behavior doesn't happen and a rat race doesn't start surrounding said behavior is to not have the temptation in the first place. Wishing human psychology were different is a fools errand.

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Hey, if it stops me from having to deal with other bullshit outside of raiding, I'm all for it. Raid logging and epeen stroking via DPS meters while raidlogging is literally the entire reason I play. I don't mind being isolated. I don't want overworld plebs near me, either.

This is a completely different thing to an exam. Your example doesn’t make any sense because yes that is something you’re working hard for and it’s to progress your career prospects and how your entire life turns out.

The proper comparison would be something like Knitting. You were told using 2 lengths of wool is better than one but you find it’s more work and you have to do so much extra knitting but that means you’re going to have better quality higher graded knitted material at the end. If you put it down and walk away you’re fine and not going to be impacted for the rest of your life. But you only knit for fun and not to make a living. You have a daytime job and when you get home you love to unwind and do some knitting.

Wow is a hobby…a game…a way to unwind. It isn’t a job or anything you’re made to do so that you can make a living (eSports aside) so you need to stop thinking like it is a forced activity. It’s something to do for fun and be entertaining.
Player mentality needs to change not the game.

[Lordofbelbol]

It was part of the solo campaign. I just was unhappy i would have to play dungeons to complete the campaign. But no, i do not have to have all the developers love. I am happy with how much content the devs added to the world. I just think i do not have to continue to play the game if my progession path came to an end.

I would like if campaigns that start in the open world could end there. That was my only point

I will rarely play gameplay i do not like to play. Dungeons in WoW currently do not appeal to me at all.

I would play a healer in dungeons. Nowadays the healer playstyle is a hybrid mix out of off damage dealer and occasional heals thrown in. Mythic+ are time runs. I like to take my time. Dungeons are simply not fun to me nowadays as the role i would chose.

Priest, one of my favorite classes, has been changed that much i cannot even recognize it anymore. A disc prist nowadays is not even remotely what it was in wotlk or MOP. My favourite spec simply feels.. crippled.. it misses abilities it once had.

I completely dislike what healers became. Until they change them dramatically, i will not play them. That does not mean i demand changes. I am sure many like to play nowadays healer designs, i am just not one of them.

I simply limit my gameplay to what i like. And that is literally the world only nowadays. And some pvp at the start of an expac, that is, until the gladiators got their set upgrades and roflstomp everything.

I do not demand the devs to cater their game to me. I am just one guy. I only talk about what i do, and that is i will not play anything that is not fun for me. I do not see a computer game as a torture or chore tool, i see it as something i do in my sparetime, and that the gameplay itself indluding useful rewards is what matters to me.

A game should be no shackle, but a fun place. A game should not dictate your schedule, but be a sparetime activity you freely chose to do. That is, for me. If you dedicate all your life to a game, you probably think different.

I got a priest healer 407 ilvl 2250 io, doing +17-18's at the moment.

outside of spamming smite during BL sometimes i am doing literally 0 damage and no one ever complained.

[BeepBoo]

Wow is a hobby…a game…a way to unwind. It isn’t a job or anything you’re made to do so that you can make a living (eSports aside) so you need to stop thinking like it is a forced activity. It’s something to do for fun and be entertaining.
Player mentality needs to change not the game.

And what if I derive my fun from beating on meters? That is literally the only fun part about the game for me is playing finger DDR and knowing I'm doing it better than other people. Gear and permagrind bullshit directly impacts that. Inb4 "you're playing the wrong game!" or some other bullshit take. Games are not for unwinding. At least multiplayer games. If you like walking sims, go play NMS. MP games are for grouping and flexing.

[Hobbidaggy]

And what if I derive my fun from beating on meters? That is literally the only fun part about the game for me is playing finger DDR and knowing I'm doing it better than other people. Gear and permagrind bullshit directly impacts that.

If you only have fun by numbers going up and being on top of a list of other numbers, then that my friend is literally the same as the “permagrind” you so much hate.

You’re clearly NEVER going to understand or see reason that you are 1- addicted to the game, 2- don’t want to keep playing but can’t stop because of said addiction and 3- refuse to see reason when others point it out to you then I’m sorry to say nobody really cares…..we like it and we are all going to keep playing it and if you hate what it is now so much then just stop…..but you can’t because you’re addicted…so you won’t. Instead you’ll just keep hating the game and telling everyone how bad it is and how much you hate it and they should hate it too

[Rageonit]

Funny cause your the one praising those grinds while I'm glad that is no longer a thing.
Weird huh?
You praise the grind that was the covenant hall systems, meanwhile I'm glad their gone. Yet now you say those grinds are awful and horrible?
Make up your mind already.

Nah, I've simply praised the amount of activities offered by SL and criticized the lack of it in DF. There was no grind for me in it, simply because I've acknowledged that by playing the game the way I want to play it, I will have to choose some "goals" or "cosmetics" out of all that were offered - and if, on Sunday, I had more time to play, I still had plenty of goals and cosmetics to chase even late into the expansion. Versus your model of the game, where apparently it's best to have as few goals and options possible, so you... don't have to play the said game. Sounds like a treat!

[BeepBoo]

Versus your model of the game, where apparently it's best to have as few goals and options possible, so you... don't have to play the said game. Sounds like a treat!

One goal: beat people on meters. Except my goal results in an endless amount of satisfaction and replayability of the same content, versus yours which are finite. My goal is more conducive to actual game development, much the way something like LoL gets infinite use out of one map and a trickle of champions.

Just admit it: a grind is antithesis to my playstyle and it makes perfect sense why I cannot be happy with one without just flat out abandoning my goals, despite you claiming "but you can just have self control" (which is obviously wrong when you acknowledge goals like mine exist).

[Rageonit]

Just admit it: a grind is antithesis to my playstyle and it makes perfect sense why I cannot be happy with one without just flat out abandoning my goals, despite you claiming "but you can just have self control" (which is obviously wrong when you acknowledge goals like mine exist).

First of all, the guy I was talking with criticized SL Covenants for grinds involving cosmetic items, which already makes this argument invalid, because it had nothing to do with player power. Apparently even too many cosmetics is bad if you can't have them all.

Secondly, "beating people on meters" doesn't change whether there is player power grind in the game or not. You might simply beat less of them, if some of them are able to grind more of that power, but the game's still there. So what you're trying to say, I think, is: "My goal is to be the best in the world"? Then you've probably chosen the wrong game, pick one that doesn't have any kind of RNG involved. I'd say in a game like WoW it's unrealistic anyway if you're not in the top guild, because your performance is very much dependant on your comp, on the overall ability of other players etc. etc.

[BeepBoo]

You might simply beat less of them, if some of them are able to grind more of that power, but the game's still there.

No, any artificial power that is tied to anything but skill is interfering with my desire to have the truest competition possible. At least with finite gear sources and caps, it's far more reasonable and easy for me to only engage in my goal and do as well as I should based on my abilities instead of trash like gear or artifacts.

So what you're trying to say, I think, is: "My goal is to be the best in the world"?

No, my goal is to be the best I'm able to be as a player and as the game allows my character to be. I'm not looking to beat everyone, just beat everyone who isn't as good as me at my class. I don't need scrubs who would otherwise be 40th percentile players somehow getting competitive with me because they had too much free time and good luck with trash RNG like titanforging.

As for cosmetics? Nah. Go crazy. Have as many of those be infinite grinds as you want.

[Rageonit]

No, any artificial power that is tied to anything but skill is interfering with my desire to have the truest competition possible.

Then, like I've said, your goal is unrealistic. Retail WoW has so many factors out of your control that it will never be even close to "truest competition possible". The only true competitions in WoW are things like MDIs or arena tournaments where everyone has access to the exact same things. Why not try your luck there? Retail WoW will never be (and shouldn't be) like that, because it's an RPG game with RNG elements. You might think that no power grinds makes it more "fair", but the question is, why should an MMO RPG game be "fair" in that sence, if RNG is its core element?

No, my goal is to be the best I'm able to be as a player and as the game allows my character to be.

Then I have some great news for you, my friend: ilvl parses exist for a reason You can compare yourself to players with the same amount of power level, to be absolutely sure that you're competing in the "truest competition possible". Ilvl parses never lie and if you're the better player, someone with Titanforging items won't be able to beat you.

[Runicblood]

ok, so let's engage with that concept openly, i have 2 thoughts:
1. no, not "everyone" will feel obligated to them and this needs to be accepted by folks on your side of this discussion. your *compulsion* to do content you don't like so often that it makes you hate the game that you're playing in order to get statistically non-existent gains that you absolutely don't need is a problem with you, not with repeatable content or incremental power gains.
i'm totally willing to accept that this is such a huge psychological problem for you that some reasonable limits are acceptable to help support your mental illness, if you're willing to accept and admit that you have a problem.

I think you are the huge minority here and need to accept that. You keep giving these huge psychopath responses and even went as far as accusing me of suffering from a mental illness. Wow. Your arguments are all over the place and contradict themselves. Just to use your own quote one last time- no, not "everyone" enjoys the sadistic type of farms that you enjoy. Blizzard decided to take them out. not "everyone" might be happy about it, but i'm sure the "majority" is.

Won't be replying to you anymore because you write utter nonsense and "speak for the masses". Good day, sir. Get help.

[BeepBoo]

Then, like I've said, your goal is unrealistic. Retail WoW has so many factors out of your control that it will never be even close to "truest competition possible". The only true competitions in WoW are things like MDIs or arena tournaments where everyone has access to the exact same things. Why not try your luck there? Retail WoW will never be (and shouldn't be) like that, because it's an RPG game with RNG elements. You might think that no power grinds makes it more "fair", but the question is, why should an MMO RPG game be "fair" in that sence, if RNG is its core element?

This is like saying all sports are inherently unfair. The goal is "as close as possible while retaining the original design of the sport." The original design of wow's "sport" isn't just warcraft logs. It's the actual raid/dungeon setting. "Why should it be fair in that regard"? Because it's more fair than tf/ap and the game was best, loot wise, back in the day (or hell even now when it's relatively easy to cap out gear now thanks to uncapped valor grind).

ilvl parses exist for a reason You can compare yourself to players with the same amount of power level

Ilvl parse didn't work when AP was a thing, or NLC, etc. It also didn't work with legendaries. It also still doesn't make me feel better if I'm lazy at grinding and in the bottom 3rd of my raid team, even if I get 90th percentile parses for my ilvl.

The point is, I love the game's gear/progression design right now. It's way closer to my desires than the garbage past 3 xpacs.

[Rageonit]

This is like saying all sports are inherently unfair. The goal is "as close as possible while retaining the original design of the sport."

No, I'm not saying that; quite on the contrarty, I already told you that things like MDI and arena tournamets exist - and if you really want to prove yourself, try your luck there. It's the actual "truest competition possible" of WoW, not the Retail game, where many different players have many different goals, and Blizzard tries to cater to all of them.

Ilvl parse didn't work when AP was a thing, or NLC, etc. It also didn't work with legendaries.

And? Don't you see that what you're arguing for is to make you misery more bearable? There are those BiS trinkets you might never get; that rare legendary boss drop you might never see. How's that "fair competition"? It's not, because WoW is not designed to be one. Surely it makes more sence to acknowledge that this is simply not the right game to flex your skill, because, power grind or not, it has too many RNG elements? Yet, you try to force it more into the mould you'd want it to be, eliminating elements that are core for RPG games. I understand it makes the game better for your selfish goals, but I'm not sure if it makes a better game in general (for what it wants to be).

[BeepBoo]

And? Don't you see that what you're arguing for is to make you misery more bearable?

Yes, I've admitted numerous times what I'm arguing for is to make my desired playstyle/goals easier to realize.

There are those BiS trinkets you might never get; that rare legendary boss drop you might never see. How's that "fair competition"?

First off, with the current iteration, this is essentially impossible. You can get basically any gear drop from any difficulty level and bump it up to 13/13 no problem. It's WAY shorter than the legendary grind was (especially if you didn't get lucky on your first one) AND also comes directly from doing the two activities I already prefer to do: raiding and m+. No overworld bullshit required. No facerolling required. Just doing what I already love to get things that make me better at those activities. Novel thought.

It's not, because WoW is not designed to be one.

It doesn't need to be a perfectly fair competition to be fun. LoL isn't a perfectly fair competition, either. There's tons of random in the game. However, I would still say that skill is the ultimate decider and it's still a fun competition despite all the RNG. Same for wow. What I can tell you is that there is a level where it turns into "too much" and that usually comes in the form of dumb shit that I theoretically COULD do but really don't want to dedicate the time to do. Running a raid once a week for hopes to get that piece of gear and not getting lucky? Fine. It will happen eventually, and as I already said, raiding in and of itself is fun. Having power that I could DEFINITELY get if I played 20 hours doing dumb shit like world quests or rep grinds? Absolutely not. It's not even RNG that' the issue. It's power inside activities I like doing being accessible by necessarily doing activities I really hate.

Surely it makes more sence to acknowledge that this is simply not the right game to flex your skill, because, power grind or not, it has too many RNG elements?

Not how statistics works. Even despite all the RNG, you can tell who are better players than others by consistent performance.

Yet, you try to force it more into the mould you'd want it to be, eliminating elements that are core for RPG games. I understand it makes the game better for your selfish goals, but I'm not sure if it makes a better game in general (for what it wants to be).

I just want the game's RNG levels and designs to stay true to what they were all the way up until WOTLK or, even better, as they are now. I'm not the one arguing for the game to be different. I'm arguing for it to be the same as it started out: gear is the only source of power progression at max level, and you have to do top quality grouped activities to get a shot at it such that raidlogging is just fine.

[Rageonit]

It doesn't need to be a perfectly fair competition to be fun.

Exactly. And where we differ is where we draw the line, but there's no solution to where the line should be. The difference is, what I'm advocating for is simply "Give players as many options to develop their characters as possible", whereas you draw the line at: "Do not give players options that would force me to do more than I want to". My solution opens the game up for more types of players; yours tries to narrow it down to a certain type of player. I don't know if any of those approaches is the "proper" one, (prolly not), but let me say this: I'm very curious if Blizzard will be happy with how the numbers shape for them this expansion.

Otherwise, I don't think there's anything else left to say.

[FelPlague]

Nah, I've simply praised the amount of activities offered by SL and criticized the lack of it in DF. There was no grind for me in it, simply because I've acknowledged that by playing the game the way I want to play it, I will have to choose some "goals" or "cosmetics" out of all that were offered - and if, on Sunday, I had more time to play, I still had plenty of goals and cosmetics to chase even late into the expansion. Versus your model of the game, where apparently it's best to have as few goals and options possible, so you... don't have to play the said game. Sounds like a treat!

There is TONS of goals, but unlike shadowlands you are not REQUIRED to do them.
Soup event
Siege event
Hunts
rares actually worth something
Primal storms
Storms fury
The races
the advanced races
the reverse races
the pvp races
actual world pvp rewards and the return of the air crates.
Professions
tresure hunting
and those are just ones that were not in shadowlands, it also includes the typical raid, M+, pvp, world quests, dailies, etc.

in shadowlands you had your ONE covenant event whcih was usually once a week and was forced on you based on what covenant you were in. then there was torghast which you HAD to do, there was the maw which you HAD to do, there was korthia which you HAD to do, there was anima farming which you HAD to do. There was soul farming which you HAD to do.

dragonflight has TONS of things to do and to unlock, but requires far less time to do so, and far less of these activities are things you are required to do, and instead things you can CHOOSE to do. You don't HAVE to do the siege every week like you had to do torghast, you don't HAVE to do the soup event every week like you did the soul gathering, you don't HAVE to do dailies like you did in the maw and in korthia.
These thigns are all still there in one way or another, but they are OPTIONAL.

[Rageonit]

There is TONS of goals...

And then you start with the soup even God, you're so cute. Remind me, what's the actual "goal" of the soup event? Please, I want to hear your story of this exciting content.
And then you continue by listing races, advances races and reverse races as three different bullet points to make your list look big (Activities that - apart of the reverse races - you could've "finished" first week of the expansion).
Also, after the whole rant about "grinds", you have the cheek to list the primal storms, which is the most basic grind possible: pull and AoE down group of mobs for hours. I wonder, how much development time went into that...? But no, it's great; Covenant activities, on the other hand, were bad and lazy; forget all the quests and lore and detail that went into them, Primal storms is the amazing new thing DF has to offer.

I love how you continue to dig that hole for yourself. I don't even have to try.

[Gaidax]

There is TONS of goals, but unlike shadowlands you are not REQUIRED to do them.
Soup event
Siege event
Hunts
rares actually worth something
Primal storms
Storms fury
The races
the advanced races
the reverse races
the pvp races
actual world pvp rewards and the return of the air crates.
Professions
tresure hunting
and those are just ones that were not in shadowlands, it also includes the typical raid, M+, pvp, world quests, dailies, etc.

in shadowlands you had your ONE covenant event whcih was usually once a week and was forced on you based on what covenant you were in. then there was torghast which you HAD to do, there was the maw which you HAD to do, there was korthia which you HAD to do, there was anima farming which you HAD to do. There was soul farming which you HAD to do.

dragonflight has TONS of things to do and to unlock, but requires far less time to do so, and far less of these activities are things you are required to do, and instead things you can CHOOSE to do. You don't HAVE to do the siege every week like you had to do torghast, you don't HAVE to do the soup event every week like you did the soul gathering, you don't HAVE to do dailies like you did in the maw and in korthia.
These thigns are all still there in one way or another, but they are OPTIONAL.

I think you're really REALLY trying hard to stretch the very limited world content DF has. You even list same shit 5 times to make it look big omegalul.



Of the modern expansions starting Legion, DF is the most barren on activities of all.

Like really - you're trying to compare soup and "siege" (lol) to something like Class Halls, Warfronts or Torghast? Or this pitiful selection of renown quests to practically every high level campaign we had 3 last expansions?

This expansion is practically empty - they made a kickass world, but then they populated it with bare minimum events that became obsolete in the first month after launch.

DF does quite a few important things right - the UI, talent and profession changes are all good and important, new class is good and long overdue, flying 2.0 is great and hopefully here to stay.

But expansion-specific world activities? Bruh... They gave you a bare frikkin' minimum they could. It's not nothing, but it's a step down from what we are used to get.