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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    This is like saying all sports are inherently unfair. The goal is "as close as possible while retaining the original design of the sport."
    No, I'm not saying that; quite on the contrarty, I already told you that things like MDI and arena tournamets exist - and if you really want to prove yourself, try your luck there. It's the actual "truest competition possible" of WoW, not the Retail game, where many different players have many different goals, and Blizzard tries to cater to all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Ilvl parse didn't work when AP was a thing, or NLC, etc. It also didn't work with legendaries.
    And? Don't you see that what you're arguing for is to make you misery more bearable? There are those BiS trinkets you might never get; that rare legendary boss drop you might never see. How's that "fair competition"? It's not, because WoW is not designed to be one. Surely it makes more sence to acknowledge that this is simply not the right game to flex your skill, because, power grind or not, it has too many RNG elements? Yet, you try to force it more into the mould you'd want it to be, eliminating elements that are core for RPG games. I understand it makes the game better for your selfish goals, but I'm not sure if it makes a better game in general (for what it wants to be).

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    And? Don't you see that what you're arguing for is to make you misery more bearable?
    Yes, I've admitted numerous times what I'm arguing for is to make my desired playstyle/goals easier to realize.

    There are those BiS trinkets you might never get; that rare legendary boss drop you might never see. How's that "fair competition"?
    First off, with the current iteration, this is essentially impossible. You can get basically any gear drop from any difficulty level and bump it up to 13/13 no problem. It's WAY shorter than the legendary grind was (especially if you didn't get lucky on your first one) AND also comes directly from doing the two activities I already prefer to do: raiding and m+. No overworld bullshit required. No facerolling required. Just doing what I already love to get things that make me better at those activities. Novel thought.

    It's not, because WoW is not designed to be one.
    It doesn't need to be a perfectly fair competition to be fun. LoL isn't a perfectly fair competition, either. There's tons of random in the game. However, I would still say that skill is the ultimate decider and it's still a fun competition despite all the RNG. Same for wow. What I can tell you is that there is a level where it turns into "too much" and that usually comes in the form of dumb shit that I theoretically COULD do but really don't want to dedicate the time to do. Running a raid once a week for hopes to get that piece of gear and not getting lucky? Fine. It will happen eventually, and as I already said, raiding in and of itself is fun. Having power that I could DEFINITELY get if I played 20 hours doing dumb shit like world quests or rep grinds? Absolutely not. It's not even RNG that' the issue. It's power inside activities I like doing being accessible by necessarily doing activities I really hate.

    Surely it makes more sence to acknowledge that this is simply not the right game to flex your skill, because, power grind or not, it has too many RNG elements?
    Not how statistics works. Even despite all the RNG, you can tell who are better players than others by consistent performance.

    Yet, you try to force it more into the mould you'd want it to be, eliminating elements that are core for RPG games. I understand it makes the game better for your selfish goals, but I'm not sure if it makes a better game in general (for what it wants to be).
    I just want the game's RNG levels and designs to stay true to what they were all the way up until WOTLK or, even better, as they are now. I'm not the one arguing for the game to be different. I'm arguing for it to be the same as it started out: gear is the only source of power progression at max level, and you have to do top quality grouped activities to get a shot at it such that raidlogging is just fine.
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2023-02-24 at 09:28 AM.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    It doesn't need to be a perfectly fair competition to be fun.
    Exactly. And where we differ is where we draw the line, but there's no solution to where the line should be. The difference is, what I'm advocating for is simply "Give players as many options to develop their characters as possible", whereas you draw the line at: "Do not give players options that would force me to do more than I want to". My solution opens the game up for more types of players; yours tries to narrow it down to a certain type of player. I don't know if any of those approaches is the "proper" one, (prolly not), but let me say this: I'm very curious if Blizzard will be happy with how the numbers shape for them this expansion.

    Otherwise, I don't think there's anything else left to say.

  4. #464
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Nah, I've simply praised the amount of activities offered by SL and criticized the lack of it in DF. There was no grind for me in it, simply because I've acknowledged that by playing the game the way I want to play it, I will have to choose some "goals" or "cosmetics" out of all that were offered - and if, on Sunday, I had more time to play, I still had plenty of goals and cosmetics to chase even late into the expansion. Versus your model of the game, where apparently it's best to have as few goals and options possible, so you... don't have to play the said game. Sounds like a treat!
    There is TONS of goals, but unlike shadowlands you are not REQUIRED to do them.
    Soup event
    Siege event
    Hunts
    rares actually worth something
    Primal storms
    Storms fury
    The races
    the advanced races
    the reverse races
    the pvp races
    actual world pvp rewards and the return of the air crates.
    Professions
    tresure hunting
    and those are just ones that were not in shadowlands, it also includes the typical raid, M+, pvp, world quests, dailies, etc.

    in shadowlands you had your ONE covenant event whcih was usually once a week and was forced on you based on what covenant you were in. then there was torghast which you HAD to do, there was the maw which you HAD to do, there was korthia which you HAD to do, there was anima farming which you HAD to do. There was soul farming which you HAD to do.

    dragonflight has TONS of things to do and to unlock, but requires far less time to do so, and far less of these activities are things you are required to do, and instead things you can CHOOSE to do. You don't HAVE to do the siege every week like you had to do torghast, you don't HAVE to do the soup event every week like you did the soul gathering, you don't HAVE to do dailies like you did in the maw and in korthia.
    These thigns are all still there in one way or another, but they are OPTIONAL.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2023-02-24 at 10:27 AM.
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  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    There is TONS of goals...
    And then you start with the soup even God, you're so cute. Remind me, what's the actual "goal" of the soup event? Please, I want to hear your story of this exciting content.
    And then you continue by listing races, advances races and reverse races as three different bullet points to make your list look big (Activities that - apart of the reverse races - you could've "finished" first week of the expansion).
    Also, after the whole rant about "grinds", you have the cheek to list the primal storms, which is the most basic grind possible: pull and AoE down group of mobs for hours. I wonder, how much development time went into that...? But no, it's great; Covenant activities, on the other hand, were bad and lazy; forget all the quests and lore and detail that went into them, Primal storms is the amazing new thing DF has to offer.

    I love how you continue to dig that hole for yourself. I don't even have to try.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2023-02-24 at 10:38 AM.

  6. #466
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    There is TONS of goals, but unlike shadowlands you are not REQUIRED to do them.
    Soup event
    Siege event
    Hunts
    rares actually worth something
    Primal storms
    Storms fury
    The races
    the advanced races
    the reverse races
    the pvp races
    actual world pvp rewards and the return of the air crates.
    Professions
    tresure hunting
    and those are just ones that were not in shadowlands, it also includes the typical raid, M+, pvp, world quests, dailies, etc.

    in shadowlands you had your ONE covenant event whcih was usually once a week and was forced on you based on what covenant you were in. then there was torghast which you HAD to do, there was the maw which you HAD to do, there was korthia which you HAD to do, there was anima farming which you HAD to do. There was soul farming which you HAD to do.

    dragonflight has TONS of things to do and to unlock, but requires far less time to do so, and far less of these activities are things you are required to do, and instead things you can CHOOSE to do. You don't HAVE to do the siege every week like you had to do torghast, you don't HAVE to do the soup event every week like you did the soul gathering, you don't HAVE to do dailies like you did in the maw and in korthia.
    These thigns are all still there in one way or another, but they are OPTIONAL.
    I think you're really REALLY trying hard to stretch the very limited world content DF has. You even list same shit 5 times to make it look big omegalul.



    Of the modern expansions starting Legion, DF is the most barren on activities of all.

    Like really - you're trying to compare soup and "siege" (lol) to something like Class Halls, Warfronts or Torghast? Or this pitiful selection of renown quests to practically every high level campaign we had 3 last expansions?

    This expansion is practically empty - they made a kickass world, but then they populated it with bare minimum events that became obsolete in the first month after launch.

    DF does quite a few important things right - the UI, talent and profession changes are all good and important, new class is good and long overdue, flying 2.0 is great and hopefully here to stay.

    But expansion-specific world activities? Bruh... They gave you a bare frikkin' minimum they could. It's not nothing, but it's a step down from what we are used to get.

  7. #467
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I think you're really REALLY trying hard to stretch the very limited world content DF has. You even list same shit 5 times to make it look big omegalul.



    Of the modern expansions starting Legion, DF is the most barren on activities of all.

    Like really - you're trying to compare soup and "siege" (lol) to something like Class Halls, Warfronts or Torghast? Or this pitiful selection of renown quests to practically every high level campaign we had 3 last expansions?

    This expansion is practically empty - they made a kickass world, but then they populated it with bare minimum events that became obsolete in the first month after launch.

    DF does quite a few important things right - the UI, talent and profession changes are all good and important, new class is good and long overdue, flying 2.0 is great and hopefully here to stay.

    But expansion-specific world activities? Bruh... They gave you a bare frikkin' minimum they could. It's not nothing, but it's a step down from what we are used to get.
    "Same shit 5 times"
    Show me the same thing I listed 5 times.
    Also you say that but literally every time I show up to a hunt people are there, every siege I go to I find A WHOLE RAID of people, every soup event I show to you find TONS of people. I see people doing races all the time. and world pvp quests and crates I always find atleast 10 people.
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  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Also you say that but literally every time I show up to a hunt people are there, every siege I go to I find A WHOLE RAID of people, every soup event I show to you find TONS of people.
    Well what do you expect, there's nothing else to do so everyone's doing soup and siege.

  9. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    "Same shit 5 times"
    Show me the same thing I listed 5 times.
    Also you say that but literally every time I show up to a hunt people are there, every siege I go to I find A WHOLE RAID of people, every soup event I show to you find TONS of people. I see people doing races all the time. and world pvp quests and crates I always find atleast 10 people.
    Races...

    It's like bruh - like as if I'd listed torghast 8 times, because it had 8 wings on launch. It's same fucking shit - owaw a course is different and skill level too must be completely different thing!

    Might as well list M+ 320 times, because you know it's 8 dungeons, then it can be Tyr or Fort and then 20 key levels...


    Yeahhh... no it's one thing M+, one thing Torghast and one thing Races. This desperate padding only turns you into a meme.

  10. #470
    DF is pretty good imo. My only complaint is that it focuses its endgame on a feature i hate (m+) even more than before. I would like it to have more focus on non arena pvp and world content.

    The real winner of the expansion is the talent trees.
    Last edited by Gratlim; 2023-02-24 at 11:29 AM.

  11. #471
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Races...

    It's like bruh - like as if I'd listed torghast 8 times, because it had 8 wings on launch. It's same fucking shit - owaw a course is different and skill level too must be completely different thing!

    Might as well list M+ 320 times, because you know it's 8 dungeons, then it can be Tyr or Fort and then 20 key levels...


    Yeahhh... no it's one thing M+, one thing Torghast and one thing Races. This desperate padding only turns you into a meme.
    "The races
    the advanced races
    the reverse races
    the pvp races"
    I see 4, where is the 5th?
    Nevermind the fact they are different activities, in what they reward, and what they require.
    But fine, let's consider them one then if you really so pissy about it, still confused how you had issue counting to 4.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gratlim View Post
    DF is pretty good imo. My only complaint is that it focuses its endgame on a feature i hate (m+) even more than before. I would like it to have more focus on non arena pvp and world content.

    The real winner of the expansion is the talent trees.
    M+ got nerfed this expac though, you need to do 20's to cap not 15's any longer.
    shadowlands it was FAR superior then in dragonflight for it's focus.
    also dragonflight is one of if not the best expansion for world content what?
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  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    also dragonflight is one of if not the best expansion for world content what?
    Yeah, it has races, and the other races, and the other races, and on top of that, the other races. That's already four different amazing things.
    Oh, and of course the adorable soup event

  13. #473
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    still confused how you had issue counting to 4.
    First of all, I am not "pissy" - instead of arguing take it as constructive feedback if you want to be taken seriously. People here are not 10 years old, they see through bullshit immediately and bloating is an instant giveaway.

    Races is indeed - one kind of activity and very niche and small at that really. I'd imagine compared to soup and "siege" they are a bit more involved but just barely. So no need to pretend they are bigger than what they are.

  14. #474
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Yeah, it has races, and the other races, and the other races, and on top of that, the other races. That's already four different amazing things.
    Oh, and of course the adorable soup event
    and hunts
    and air drops
    and event rares
    and primal storms
    and storms fury
    and the siege
    and treasure hunting

    mate you got you who can't get a single thing right and gaidax who confuses 4 with 5. not doing yourselves very well here.
    seriously trying to argue shadowlands had more enjoyable world content then dragonflight.
    I did not think we would already hit the honeymoon phase where people go "shadoelands was actually pretty great" so quick, but guess people are more and more beligerant these days.
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  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    and hunts
    and air drops
    and event rares
    and primal storms
    and storms fury
    and the siege
    and treasure hunting

    mate you got you who can't get a single thing right and gaidax who confuses 4 with 5. not doing yourselves very well here.
    Why are you advertising primal storms? I thought you hate grinds.
    Air drops as content - LOL.
    "Siege" as content - LOL. There was once an expansion called "Wrath of the Lich King" where you could do actual sieges. Dunno if you've played it, but if you didn't, there's Wrath Classic. Take a moment to compare where we were in 2008 and where we are today with DF "siege" event. Like I've said, all the shit you get, you deserve, for defending this kind of content. Unimaginative, repetitive, with zero variety, lore or detail.
    Treasure hunting and rares - yeah, staple of every expansion since forever now, but if that's enough to make you satisfied... All the shit you get, you deserve.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2023-02-24 at 11:51 AM.

  16. #476
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Why are you advertising primal storms? I thought you hate grinds.
    Air drops as content - LOL.
    "Siege" as content - LOL. There was once an expansion called "Wrath of the Lich King" where you could do actual sieges. Dunno if you've played it, but if you didn't, there's Wrath Classic. Take a moment to compare where we were in 2008 and where we are today with DF "siege" event. Like I've said, all the shit you get, you deserve, for defending this kind of content. Unimaginative, repetitive, with zero variety, lore or detail.
    Treasure hunting and rares - yeah, staple of every expansion since forever now, but if that's enough to make you satisfied... All the shit you get, you deserve.
    yes air drop is content, what are you on about? Having zone wipe drops that spawn every so often in world pvp causing faction fights over a box.
    Aww yeah the wotlk sieges so good they were either removed entirely, or veto'd by the entire playbase as horrible imbalanced trash.
    What past expansion could you just fly around and collect treasures all day for as long or little as you wanted?
    What past expansion had rares that spawned with entire zone alerts that dropped actual good gear?
    No past expansion has had rares like the ones we have in dragonflight, do you have such a short attention span to forget the obscene amount of people farming the "super rares" for the first 2 weeks to get BIS?

    and yeah if by "shit" you mean the world actually being populated with content that encourages you to just go out in the world, have fun, explore, and enjoy the world for the world it is, then I am glad to have that, cause no prior expansion has done that. Once you did all the quests, there was nothing to do anymore other then run around gathering for gold, and maybe encounter a rare here and there that drops a cosmetic. there was a couple in vanilla that were good, but only cause vanill was back in the day of "trinket just stuns the target" was a thing, back when a level 12 trinket could be BIS in pvp.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2023-02-24 at 12:00 PM.
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  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    yes air drop is content, what are you on about? Having zone wipe drops that spawn every so often in world pvp causing faction fights over a box.Aww yeah the wotlk sieges so good they were either removed entirely, or veto'd by the entire playbase as horrible imbalanced trash.
    What past expansion could you just fly around and collect treasures all day for as long or little as you wanted?
    What past expansion had rares that spawned with entire zone alerts that dropped actual good gear?
    No past expansion has had rares like the ones we have in dragonflight, do you have such a short attention span to forget the obscene amount of people farming the "super rares" for the first 2 weeks to get BIS?
    So lets summarize:
    You think great content is a box that spawns randomly so people can fight for it.
    You think going from WotLK siege to DF siege after 15 years of development is the right direction, because DF siege is great content.
    You think flying over the map to pick up an item that gives you 10 rep with a facton (that you've probably maxed out by now) is great content.
    You think that killing a 2 mil HP target dummy for a chance of an item (which is absolutely redundant by now if you raid or do m+, by the way) is great content.
    You think an "event" that involves grinding groups of mobs for hours is great content (even tho you dislike grinds).

    Is that all correct?

  18. #478
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Like I've said, all the shit you get, you deserve, for defending this kind of content. Unimaginative, repetitive, with zero variety, lore or detail.
    Treasure hunting and rares - yeah, staple of every expansion since forever now, but if that's enough to make you satisfied... All the shit you get, you deserve.
    I, personally, absolutely agree with this quote.

    The real issue here is that you have some people like FelPlague that simply shoot themselves and us in our collective feet. Because if apparently soup and "siege" is all the world content such players need, Ion and co might just figure "whelp, might as well just give them a bunch of that and move on".

    People are just enabling Blizzard to keep delivering subpar activities that went stale a decade ago already. Game brings in a billion dollars annually and all they can manage is soup, siege and races as world content. It's pathetic.

  19. #479
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    So lets summarize:
    You think great content is a box that spawns randomly so people can fight for it.
    You think going from WotLK siege to DF siege after 15 years of development is the right direction, because DF siege is great content.
    You think flying over the map to pick up an item that gives you 10 rep with a facton (that you've probably maxed out by now) is great content.
    You think that killing a 2 mil HP target dummy for a chance of an item (which is absolutely redundant by now if you raid or do m+, by the way) is great content.
    You think an "event" that involves grinding groups of mobs for hours is great content (even tho you dislike grinds).

    Is that all correct?
    1- Yes it is super fun to have these back and forth battles between horde and alliance to see who can get the box, it feels like a mini version of the battle of southshore of the old days.

    2- yes, because the wotlk sieges were awful, there is a reason one of them was literally removed from the game, and no one fucking misses it.

    2.5- nevermind the fact "sieges" are not all the same thing, unless you think the siege of nizauo temple, siege of orgrimmar, siege of undercity, and siege of the strand of the ancients are all similar, even though one is a raid, one is a dungeon, one is a scenario, and one is a battleground.

    3- I think being able to fly around, pick up 25 rep, and random greys, and cosmetics, and profession kknowledge, and potions, and profession reagents, is nice, just being able to fly around collecting treasures all day every day like you would gathering, but you don't HAVE to be a gatherer, is great, it is not jaw dropping amazing gameplay, but being able to mellow out, fly around collecting treasures, gathering ores, empowerng them and exploring for special rares that drop actual good rewards, is a good overall experience, especially if paired with just chatting with friends, or watching a movie, something that in the past you would do while afk running circles in the major city, now you can instead actually progress.

    4-I think showing up to a rare to meet 10-30 other people and all kill a massive 4.5 mil hp mob together to get some rep, gear, items, cosmetics, profession knowledge, is fun, to kill something collectivly with a ton of people.

    5- Yes, it is fun as fuck to get a group, gather up 20 mobs and burst the fuck outta them. We are playing an MMORPG, grinds are part of the game, and grinds can be awful, but they arn't always. primal storms are a fun grind because you can just mass murder stuff, so is the colbalt assembly because of how insanely powerful you can get with the powers, it is super fun to be 30 feet tall, when you jump stuff gets thrown into the sky, you teleport randomly, you drop a nuke when you open your map, and sheep fall from the sky like an explosive rain, all while getting items and rep.

    But the covenant hall grinds were not fun.
    farming mobs in the maw for weeks to try and get soulss, standing on an empty platform dealing with chordies fucking madness for almost 24 hours and doing the same weeklies every single week, doing the same quest over and over and over, grinding soul gems constantly for the ember court. and the absolute grind that was the currencies for the path of ascension, were not fun, even if the actual events themselves were "fun" (Necrolord one, although I loved, it had nothing to it, other then you got a bodyguard for the 4 main zones, and became useless with launch of korthia.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I, personally, absolutely agree with this quote.

    The real issue here is that you have some people like FelPlague that simply shoot themselves and us in our collective feet. Because if apparently soup and "siege" is all the world content such players need, Ion and co might just figure "whelp, might as well just give them a bunch of that and move on".

    People are just enabling Blizzard to keep delivering subpar activities that went stale a decade ago already. Game brings in a billion dollars annually and all they can manage is soup, siege and races as world content. It's pathetic.
    Ok so first
    Billion dollars? idk if wow is bringing in more then half blizzard's total profits.
    and second
    ok what world content do you think prior expansions did better?
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  20. #480
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Ok so first
    Billion dollars? idk if wow is bringing in more then half blizzard's total profits.
    and second
    ok what world content do you think prior expansions did better?
    Guess what, it does and EVEN if it falls short by couple hundred mils - it's still fucking TON of money.

    For that money, they can do better than soup and "siege".

    And here's the kicker - I don't even need to compare to previous expansions to tell you that fucking soup and "siege" as world content is PATHETIC. How 'bout that, huh?

    Asking them to put actual effort into world events given the pittance they offered in DF is fair, ESPECIALLY given they fucking swim in money.

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