Bored after 2 months of DF

[JustaRandomReindeer]

You have me a bit mistaken here.

I indeed do not have a lot of time but I do have enough to be able to dedicate 2-3 hours a day depending on the day after work which I m willing to bet this is the category where the vast majority of players fall under (plus or minus one hour).
Wanting to also enjoy other games does not mean I do not have the desire to play WoW. It means that I enjoy it when I have the choice to either spend 1-2 hours each day on WoW and then 1-2 hours on another game and be able to keep up or spend 4 hours on WoW for 2 days straight and then spend the time also enjoying other games rather than "no other game allowed because you have to spend 3-4 hours a day to keep up with WoW".

You find it asinine that they would design a game around people who do not want to play it 24/7 and I find it asinine that they would design the game around the small % of people that have infinite free time on their hands.

Last time I read a survey around MMO players, the average player age was around 26 years old, and more than 50% of the sampled people were full time workers. Interesting to note that this was a few years back and this was a survey spanning multiple MMOs because I am also willing to bet that WoWs average age demographic this day and age is higher than other MMOs both due to the sub fee and due to the age of the game. Thus, the % of full time workers is likely to be even higher.

I therefore find it logical that they design the mandatory activities of the game in such a manner that you can complete them within a chill weekly timeframe, leaving you ample time to pursue non essential activities or enjoy other games. Calling DF WoD 2.0 is a bit disingenuine as we now have far more evergreen systems like M+ that we did not have in WoD.

The thing is you could easily clear content in Legion in particular even if you are a full time worker. I know because I did it. Unless you are part of the 2% cutting edge raiders you never had to grind to keep up. Do you think someone who doesn't care about Heroic and Mythic raiding ever had to grind to keep up? Let's not forget that the vast majority of players wouldn't even consider themselves hardcore raiders. Only about 20% of players are AotC raiders based on achievement statistics. What that means is that the majority of players are happy with LFR and normal raids. You didn't need to grind AP to be able to clear heroic raids and you certainly did not need it for Normal raids and LFR. And what's even funnier is that based on achievement statistics more people cleared heroic raids in Legion than in WoD or any post-Legion expansion, even tho some people here claim that "the grind" prevented them from doing so. Almost as if if the game is fun outside of raiding then people are more likely to stick around and try raiding too.

Legion's overwhelming success can be credited to design choices that made activites outside of raiding and M+ feel rewarding. It was the only expansion where they did not cater to the 2% and that, in large part, made it the most successful modern expansion. Every expansion after Legion Blizzard have been removing more and more of the things that made it a good expansion until we went back to WoD levels of features and content once again. M+ will not keep DF afloat, especially now that a lot of people have soured on it after four expansions in a row of the same shit and Blizzard focusing more and more on designing dungeons to be an absolute nightmare in M+.

[Thirtyrock]

I'm still having a ton of fun, far more than at this point in the previous 2 expansions. More fun than in any expansion going back to MoP. I CAN raid log, which I have to do a lot during the winter due to work. When I have more time, I can log in and have TONS of stuff to do. Class design if far superior than anything we've had in a while. Dragonriding remains extremely fun for me.

I have not remotely run out of things to do. As a player with a casual schedule, but who is capable of mythic progression, this expansion has been ideal. I can do something meaningful every time I log in, but I don't feel I'm falling behind if I can't play as much as my guildmates. The ones who are playing more frequently have better gear, for sure, but it's not miles ahead like in previous expansions. They seem satisfied with their progression as well.

Can't speak to the experience of people who prefer not to participate in group content.

[crusadernero]

The thing is you could easily clear content in Legion in particular even if you are a full time worker. I know because I did it. Unless you are part of the 2% cutting edge raiders you never had to grind to keep up. Do you think someone who doesn't care about Heroic and Mythic raiding ever had to grind to keep up? Let's not forget that the vast majority of players wouldn't even consider themselves hardcore raiders. Only about 20% of players are AotC raiders based on achievement statistics. What that means is that the majority of players are happy with LFR and normal raids. You didn't need to grind AP to be able to clear heroic raids and you certainly did not need it for Normal raids and LFR. And what's even funnier is that based on achievement statistics more people cleared heroic raids in Legion than in WoD or any post-Legion expansion, even tho some people here claim that "the grind" prevented them from doing so. Almost as if if the game is fun outside of raiding then people are more likely to stick around and try raiding too.

Legion's overwhelming success can be credited to design choices that made activites outside of raiding and M+ feel rewarding. It was the only expansion where they did not cater to the 2% and that, in large part, made it the most successful modern expansion. Every expansion after Legion Blizzard have been removing more and more of the things that made it a good expansion until we went back to WoD levels of features and content once again. M+ will not keep DF afloat, especially now that a lot of people have soured on it after four expansions in a row of the same shit and Blizzard focusing more and more on designing dungeons to be an absolute nightmare in M+.

It doesnt matter how many times you keep saying "It wasnt needed". It happend anyway and was one of the main source of complaints about Legion and bfa. It means nothing that it wasnt needed to kill a LFR boss, it got nothing to do with it. Actually, you dont need to do anything in wow. You want to do stuff in wow. With DF theres players agency, in legion & bfa it was "We are Blizzard, we are telling you what to do". But hey, I suppose you prefer that.

Legions number one huge success was m+. After that class halls with weps, campaign and mount. AP was a huge pile of shite and I would wager most players are happy its gone.

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I'm still having a ton of fun, far more than at this point in the previous 2 expansions. More fun than in any expansion going back to MoP. I CAN raid log, which I have to do a lot during the winter due to work. When I have more time, I can log in and have TONS of stuff to do. Class design if far superior than anything we've had in a while. Dragonriding remains extremely fun for me.

I have not remotely run out of things to do. As a player with a casual schedule, but who is capable of mythic progression, this expansion has been ideal. I can do something meaningful every time I log in, but I don't feel I'm falling behind if I can't play as much as my guildmates. The ones who are playing more frequently have better gear, for sure, but it's not miles ahead like in previous expansions. They seem satisfied with their progression as well.

Can't speak to the experience of people who prefer not to participate in group content.

This. Theres player agency once again. We can choose for ourself to play alot or raidlog. Or mix it up as the weeks go by. Thats a good thing.

[Doffen]

The difference between Legion and DF is that almost every kind of activity in Legion provided a meaningful reward and some kind of progression. I enjoyed that.

Thats the main big difference really. It cannot be said better than that. As a ultra casual player in DF having Legion style of progression(AP etc) would have changed a lot. Doing the solo/group casual stuff for some gear currency etc is just not interesting enough.

[HansOlo]

Very interesting how you can frame your tiny little opinion as fact when it’s actually just arrogance haha.

Still doesn’t change the fact that you and others like you didn’t make the game, it’s not your game, you don’t know what players want, and a lot of us don’t play like you.

So, you saying that Blizzard is not right either, because there is 'a lot of you'(burner accounts or)?

Sorry to say, but a 60B dollar company does exactly what it needs to do. And that is earning more money - if you dislike the game, you are per default the minority and considered uninteresting by Blizzard.

[crusadernero]

Thats the main big difference really. It cannot be said better than that. As a ultra casual player in DF having Legion style of progression(AP etc) would have changed a lot. Doing the solo/group casual stuff for some gear currency etc is just not interesting enough.

How would it change anything if you are ultra casual player? Ultra casual would most likely mean you play very little and/or are bad at the game. By choice or not.

Personally I dont view the term "casual" as being bad, but time investment. Just saying. If so, how can DF still be bad? I mean, if you barely play anyway?

[HansOlo]

How would it change anything if you are ultra casual player? Ultra casual would most likely mean you play very little and/or are bad at the game. By choice or not.

Personally I dont view the term "casual" as being bad, but time investment. Just saying. If so, how can DF still be bad? I mean, if you barely play anyway?

Casual = playing on your on term, not dicated by a community that been around for 20years.

It's like insisting to play basket in a soccer game. But that's just my view.

[Rageonit]

Sorry to say, but a 60B dollar company does exactly what it needs to do. And that is earning more money - if you dislike the game, you are per default the minority and considered uninteresting by Blizzard.

Yeah, that totally makes sense. When you loose a customer, you just piss on him, because you still have other customers. Business 101.

[HansOlo]

Yeah, that totally makes sense. When you loose a customer, you just piss on him, because you still have other customers. Business 101.

McDonalds target families with small kids. If you and I go there - it's just considered a nice hustle. The happymeal makes a good deal of thier income(hint: the clown is supposed to cheer up the kids and not you).

Every business must have well defined audiance. Especially, when you are in the billions league.

Business 102.

[Thirtyrock]

It doesnt matter how many times you keep saying "It wasnt needed". It happend anyway and was one of the main source of complaints about Legion and bfa. It means nothing that it wasnt needed to kill a LFR boss, it got nothing to do with it. Actually, you dont need to do anything in wow. You want to do stuff in wow. With DF theres players agency, in legion & bfa it was "We are Blizzard, we are telling you what to do". But hey, I suppose you prefer that.

Legions number one huge success was m+. After that class halls with weps, campaign and mount. AP was a huge pile of shite and I would wager most players are happy its gone.

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This. Theres player agency once again. We can choose for ourself to play alot or raidlog. Or mix it up as the weeks go by. Thats a good thing.

You're talking to people who don't want that to be an option. They want EVERY thing to provide at least a chance at an upgrade. That's fine, they can want that. But players like me quit due to what FELT like an infinite grind. I quit, multiple times, because I felt like I could never keep up or even be competitive if I wasn't playing 16+ hours per week. I can't commit to that year round nor do I want to, so I just quit. I didn't whine and bitch that the game wasn't catering to me, I said "if the game isn't set up for me, I'll find a different game" even though I was bummed about it, because I love raiding.

Needing to fish for Titanforges or corruption procs or whatever made me miserable. Sure, the content was doable without the constant grind, but most guilds expected you to have a certain level of parity that couldn't be achieved without committing more time than I was willing/able to commit. That's not an issue anymore. I'm not geared as some of our more committed members, but I'm competitive. That is entirely due to the change in design philosophy.

[crusadernero]

Casual = playing on your on term, not dicated by a community that been around for 20years.

It's like insisting to play basket in a soccer game. But that's just my view.

Great, then we agree. Give players agency, not be dictated by predatory AP systems that force players to do content they dont want to. In DF, dont like arena? dont do it. Not m+? Dont do it. No raid mode? dont do it? Dont like WQs? Dont do it. Enjoy all of it? Go ahead. Can you play 16 hours a day? go ahead. Can you only play 2-3? Go ahead, its fine.

But nah, better put in neverneding grinds cause that surely give player agency and choices.

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You're talking to people who don't want that to be an option. They want EVERY thing to provide at least a chance at an upgrade. That's fine, they can want that. But players like me quit due to what FELT like an infinite grind. I quit, multiple times, because I felt like I could never keep up or even be competitive if I wasn't playing 16+ hours per week. I can't commit to that year round nor do I want to, so I just quit. I didn't whine and bitch that the game wasn't catering to me, I said "if the game isn't set up for me, I'll find a different game" even though I was bummed about it, because I love raiding.

Needing to fish for Titanforges or corruption procs or whatever made me miserable. Sure, the content was doable without the constant grind, but most guilds expected you to have a certain level of parity that couldn't be achieved without committing more time than I was willing/able to commit. That's not an issue anymore. I'm not geared as some of our more committed members, but I'm competitive. That is entirely due to the change in design philosophy.

Yeah, I feel you. Its such a relief to have a way more relaxed approach to wow again. Were you dont need to feel constantly bad for missing out on the grind and thus let your teammates down (be it pug or guild).

In short, one had to do content you didnt want to do in order to compete in the content you actually wanted to do. Over time thats draining and wont work. For one xpac? Yeaaaah, maybe. More than that? Yeah noo.

I've said for a long time that the AP system might have worked for one xpac(Legion) but when they dragged that concept into another xpac(bfa) and then esentially have players on AP farm for years drained people. SL had features like that too, certainly didnt help.

[Zodiark]

Sometimes I wish I wasn't as competitive as I am, but man there is nothing like being better than someone at something and having the stats to back it up. I simply wouldn't be playing wow if I wasn't doing current content stomping people. It holds next to no appeal otherwise.

I go to the gym for that feeling. Or enjoy a good date night with my girl or drive around in my nice car or truck if I want to feel like I've done something. When I play WoW it's just for a little fantasy fun. Like when I was a kid and my father and I would watch old Ray Harryhausen adventure movies like the 7th Voyage of Sinbad or the original Clash of the Titans. I'm competitive too but I feel like winning at life > WoW every time.

[BeepBoo]

I go to the gym for that feeling. Or enjoy a good date night with my girl or drive around in my nice car or truck if I want to feel like I've done something. When I play WoW it's just for a little fantasy fun. Like when I was a kid and my father and I would watch old Ray Harryhausen adventure movies like the 7th Voyage of Sinbad or the original Clash of the Titans. I'm competitive too but I feel like winning at life > WoW every time.

Why not both? Why not literally everything? I'm competitive when it comes to stuff like navigating walmart isles, talking shit in my head about fucking idiots who clearly don't have a plan wandering aimlessly or walking slowly instead of with purpose. Any time I can compare myself to others, I do, and let me tell you, it's easy to feel good about yourself if you look around at the general public because they're about as good at any given thing as casual "overworld only, solo progression" players are at wow.

[Zodiark]

Why not both? Why not literally everything? I'm competitive when it comes to stuff like navigating walmart isles, talking shit in my head about fucking idiots who clearly don't have a plan wandering aimlessly or walking slowly instead of with purpose. Any time I can compare myself to others, I do, and let me tell you, it's easy to feel good about yourself if you look around at the general public because they're about as good at any given thing as casual "overworld only, solo progression" players are at wow.

Well I own my own business and when I come home I want to relax not complete homework in a video game by having to do a list of content just to be on par with everyone else. A little competitiveness is good but I play video games to relax and not compete. I was a wrestler, a football player, a boxer, and a military guy in my younger days. I've done a lot. Even in boot camp when we had our pre-graduation tournament I was the captain of several winning teams. I've won several trophies and ribbons in various sports. The last thing I need to compete against others in is a video game. Now that doesn't mean when I go into a group I slack off. I usually am one of the top DPS no matter what. But nowadays I just don't have the drive when it comes to WoW to put the time in to be top tier. I enjoy playing around on different alts and running the occasional group. That's about it. I don't even raid because I don't want to commit to a schedule. I sometimes due to my job have to go to the gym late. I don't want to have to make a choice between working out and getting a piece of loot in a raid that will just become meaningless sooner or later anyhow.

[HansOlo]

Well I own my own business and when I come home I want to relax not complete homework in a video game by having to do a list of content just to be on par with everyone else. A little competitiveness is good but I play video games to relax and not compete. I was a wrestler, a football player, a boxer, and a military guy in my younger days. I've done a lot. Even in boot camp when we had our pre-graduation tournament I was the captain of several winning teams. I've won several trophies and ribbons in various sports. The last thing I need to compete against others in is a video game. Now that doesn't mean when I go into a group I slack off. I usually am one of the top DPS no matter what. But nowadays I just don't have the drive when it comes to WoW to put the time in to be top tier. I enjoy playing around on different alts and running the occasional group. That's about it. I don't even raid because I don't want to commit to a schedule. I sometimes due to my job have to go to the gym late. I don't want to have to make a choice between working out and getting a piece of loot in a raid that will just become meaningless sooner or later anyhow.

Who made up the idea that gaming is relaxing?

We can call it distraction - a virtual get away, only to replace IRL stuff with ingame activities. But gaming never been relaxing, since the invention of the internet.

WoW is basicly a job interview and the CV is the achievements.

[BeepBoo]

That's about it.

That's fair, but I suppose I'm just not someone with that type of attachment to wow specifically. There are way better games out there (or honestly, better activities IMO like watching TV) if I want to come home and chill. Wow is definitely not on that list. I get it, it's just odd that people seem to want to play wow only. Combat <anything> usually is antithesis to "relaxing" to me.

[Thirtyrock]

Who made up the idea that gaming is relaxing?

We can call it distraction - a virtual get away, only to replace IRL stuff with ingame activities. But gaming never been relaxing, since the invention of the internet.

WoW is basicly a job interview and the CV is the achievements.

I find WoW to be very relaxing. Either I'm casually doing WQs and/or leveling, or I'm raiding. Raiding can be intense, but that helps me stop thinking about all the other stuff in my life, which results in relaxation after it's over. I have a certain clear-headedness when I'm able to really focus on something for an extended period (I also work out to get this feeling).

So, I dunno, it's pretty relaxing for me.

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That's fair, but I suppose I'm just not someone with that type of attachment to wow specifically. There are way better games out there (or honestly, better activities IMO like watching TV) if I want to come home and chill. Wow is definitely not on that list. I get it, it's just odd that people seem to want to play wow only. Combat <anything> usually is antithesis to "relaxing" to me.

I like group play and I don't enjoy pvp, that rules out the vast majority of games for me. MMOs are basically the only type of game that can keep me interested for any length of time.

Watching TV can be relaxing, but only for about 45 minutes, then I get stir crazy. I don't veg well, I need something to stimulate my brain in order to relax.

[Unholyground]

Every expansion gets boring quickly, WoW has a decent amount of things to do but none of them captivate players for very long. There is no proper account progression like in other MMO's to keep players focused on.

[Alcsaar]

Every expansion gets boring quickly, WoW has a decent amount of things to do but none of them captivate players for very long. There is no proper account progression like in other MMO's to keep players focused on.

I don't want account progression. I don't want to be in a situation where I have to play every week of every month of every year. I like being able to take 4-5-6 or more months away from WoW and then when I come back in at the start of a new expansion I'm not at a massive disadvantage.

This expansion is fine and has held my attention longer than any others in the past like 3 expansions. I actually have the capability to play alts now and not feel like it takes FOREVER to try to catch them up to a relevant level.

[VMSmith]

I was talking with my wife about WoW this morning, she barely played BfA and quit about a month into SL and has no intention of ever coming back, and her position was that Legion and MoP were her favorite xpacs because of things like Green Fire and Mage Tower ... solo challenges that were actually challenging and felt really good to complete at the appropriate gear level.

There really is a smorgasbord of little things to do in DF, but that's exactly what they are ... little things with very little substance or engagement. They're fun to knock out a few in 30 minutes if you're pressed for time, but there's not really anything meaty to attack and overcome.

I don't even think that housing, her favorite MMO activity, would bring her back to WoW at this point. We're fairly confident they would do a terrible job of it. But we're agreed that with all their efforts to entice solo'ish players into organized raiding, sticking furniture and decorations into Normal and higher raiding would do more of a job of accomplishing that than any of their attempts at bribery through gear.