Bored after 2 months of DF

[Alroxas]

in the old days, you could run into people on the same server out in the world organically and youd see familiar faces and that would naturally build up social play. now everyone gets sharded and phased off into a thousand different versions that you run into someone once in the game world, you never see them again. theres no social in that sort of play. they might as well be anonymous bots.

the entire experience feels like such a downgrade.

You realize the point of sharding/phasing tech is to make servers seem more populated when they aren't? There's only really a handful of servers that are "high pop", the rest are middle to low pop. And while server connections/merges are a good idea, they aren't easy to do (otherwise we'd see more of them). The whole point is to make the world seem fuller.

Unless it's too full so then it creates a new shard/phase to put players in. The problem is the size definition of a zone can be troublesome. Take any zone, and put 100 players in it. Because of clustering of players, sometimes a zone might feel "empty" but is actually full with most of the players over in a different area of the same zone. You just can't tell because you aren't over there.

Now what IS lost now is server identity. Which leads into one of the reasons why we have issues with PuG but that is for another thread.

[Thirtyrock]

You realize the point of sharding/phasing tech is to make servers seem more populated when they aren't? There's only really a handful of servers that are "high pop", the rest are middle to low pop. And while server connections/merges are a good idea, they aren't easy to do (otherwise we'd see more of them). The whole point is to make the world seem fuller.

Unless it's too full so then it creates a new shard/phase to put players in. The problem is the size definition of a zone can be troublesome. Take any zone, and put 100 players in it. Because of clustering of players, sometimes a zone might feel "empty" but is actually full with most of the players over in a different area of the same zone. You just can't tell because you aren't over there.

Now what IS lost now is server identity. Which leads into one of the reasons why we have issues with PuG but that is for another thread.

I think the problem with Kokolums thesis is this: While an increased sense of community could be good for the game, it doesn't address the issues of content addressed in this thread. I was in a great guild of my old guildmates, people I'd played with from Wrath through MoP, at the beginning of Shadowlands. The guild fell apart after we got AOTC in Castle Nathria. Why? Because we were all primarily interested in raiding and the game design pushed us into A FEELING (I know it's a feeling and we technically could have downed the content without giving in, but that's not the point) of infinite grind. We all quit. The DF design brought us back. Unfortunately, a lot of people in this thread miss that infinite grind, because it gave them something to do on a daily basis that felt meaningful.

Nothing that Kokolums offers as a solution addresses that dichotomy/imbalance between content preferences.

Players have evolved and now want to play differently than in Vanilla. We want to be able to play at our own pace and that often means we don't have the patience required to show someone the ropes, especially if they're a stranger. If I queue up for a normal/heroic dungeon, I want to run the dungeon efficiently. I'm not opposed to giving pointers after a wipe or near wipe, but I'm not going to teach someone how to play their class in a random dungeon. If I queue up for a key, I want to time the key.

Now, I DON'T view GUILD groups the same way. I'm completely happy with teaching someone a dungeon or helping them with their class/rotation, assuming I'm familiar with it, and spend a lot of time with them BECAUSE I KNOW THEM. I'm personally willing to do this.

I anticipate that Kokolums would suggest that smaller servers, etc., would promote this sort of behavior, and they truly might incentivize me to do more of it, but that's because I'm already a fairly social player. Players who don't WANT to be social will either ignore the incentives or feel FORCED into those behaviors and types of groups despite their preferences. These players will most likely quit, because they didn't sign up for that type of gameplay in the first place. This is a situation where the juice probably isn't worth the squeeze, since you either overtune the rewards and players quit, or you spend a lot of effort designing helper/social systems that the majority of the player base ignore.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you could offer relatively minor incentives, like transmog, open-world and leveling buffs, helper-io scores, and the like and players would gradually opt in, because they find they enjoy the game more by being more social, but I doubt it. I think players who want that kind of social interaction can get it by joining active guilds that support that type of thing and players who DON'T want it opt out/only join guilds for the reduced hearthstone cooldown.

[james2400]

Its a M+ lobby game now nothing else matters outside of it.

[arkanon]

During the world first raids - those channels are the most watched. It comes back to the community(including newsfeed and topics).

You are just speakng from hypothetical standpoint. How do you solve it, without the entire playerbase turning thier back on you? Even removal of AP grind makes people confused(just look in the thread).

If no game you should be like that, how come it's been around for 18years? WoW did still better than FF, if not for the bandwagon people. The stockmarket also proves it.

I already asked you to be more critical - otherwise, we stop here.

The stock market proves WHAT exactly?

[Kokolums]

I think the problem with Kokolums thesis is this: While an increased sense of community could be good for the game, it doesn't address the issues of content addressed in this thread. I was in a great guild of my old guildmates, people I'd played with from Wrath through MoP, at the beginning of Shadowlands. The guild fell apart after we got AOTC in Castle Nathria. Why? Because we were all primarily interested in raiding and the game design pushed us into A FEELING (I know it's a feeling and we technically could have downed the content without giving in, but that's not the point) of infinite grind. We all quit. The DF design brought us back. Unfortunately, a lot of people in this thread miss that infinite grind, because it gave them something to do on a daily basis that felt meaningful.

Nothing that Kokolums offers as a solution addresses that dichotomy/imbalance between content preferences.

Players have evolved and now want to play differently than in Vanilla. We want to be able to play at our own pace and that often means we don't have the patience required to show someone the ropes, especially if they're a stranger. If I queue up for a normal/heroic dungeon, I want to run the dungeon efficiently. I'm not opposed to giving pointers after a wipe or near wipe, but I'm not going to teach someone how to play their class in a random dungeon. If I queue up for a key, I want to time the key.

Now, I DON'T view GUILD groups the same way. I'm completely happy with teaching someone a dungeon or helping them with their class/rotation, assuming I'm familiar with it, and spend a lot of time with them BECAUSE I KNOW THEM. I'm personally willing to do this.

I anticipate that Kokolums would suggest that smaller servers, etc., would promote this sort of behavior, and they truly might incentivize me to do more of it, but that's because I'm already a fairly social player. Players who don't WANT to be social will either ignore the incentives or feel FORCED into those behaviors and types of groups despite their preferences. These players will most likely quit, because they didn't sign up for that type of gameplay in the first place. This is a situation where the juice probably isn't worth the squeeze, since you either overtune the rewards and players quit, or you spend a lot of effort designing helper/social systems that the majority of the player base ignore.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you could offer relatively minor incentives, like transmog, open-world and leveling buffs, helper-io scores, and the like and players would gradually opt in, because they find they enjoy the game more by being more social, but I doubt it. I think players who want that kind of social interaction can get it by joining active guilds that support that type of thing and players who DON'T want it opt out/only join guilds for the reduced hearthstone cooldown.

1. players DONT evolve. they all want the same thing across every era. They mostly want social.
2. blizz detroyed social and the community in wrath.
3. wow dropped from 12 million down to a piddly 2-3 million.
4. the fundamental systems have started breaking down as they now need to do cross realm to fill raids and m+
5. they still refuse to fix social.

everything else is nonsense. DF brought NOBODY back. its still down to that piddly 2-3 million, just BARELY enough to keep the systems going. barely. its just gonna take one more hit to topple this thing. they cant do cross realm again. thats a one time fix.

its gonna be like how d3 died. a game filled with 5 deniers screaming the game is great.

[Glorious Leader]

Its a M+ lobby game now nothing else matters outside of it.

They should really just change the model now. One sub for all instanced content. Just make raids and dungeons. Log on search for groups or host your own.

[Kokolums]

They should really just change the model now. One sub for all instanced content. Just make raids and dungeons. Log on search for groups or host your own.

I used to joke many years ago that they should just create a cross-faction city hub with portals to raids and dungeons. Remove the entire game world. They don't care about the rest of it. But they've refused to fix it for so long that I imagine what few players remain would be OK with it.

But WoW has so much potential. With proper social and versions, WoW should crack 20 million subs in todays world. Its criminal how they let it rot. The core of WoW is amazing. Combat is so smooth and responsive. Its bright and fun in parts and grim in others. Its a shining star. But its their game. They do not care.

[HansOlo]

The stock market proves WHAT exactly?

My bad - the Square Enix stock is actually doing very good. It didn't last year I checked.

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1. players DONT evolve. they all want the same thing across every era. They mostly want social.
2. blizz detroyed social and the community in wrath.
3. wow dropped from 12 million down to a piddly 2-3 million.
4. the fundamental systems have started breaking down as they now need to do cross realm to fill raids and m+
5. they still refuse to fix social.

everything else is nonsense. DF brought NOBODY back. its still down to that piddly 2-3 million, just BARELY enough to keep the systems going. barely. its just gonna take one more hit to topple this thing. they cant do cross realm again. thats a one time fix.

its gonna be like how d3 died. a game filled with 5 deniers screaming the game is great.

I used to joke many years ago that they should just create a cross-faction city hub with portals to raids and dungeons. Remove the entire game world. They don't care about the rest of it. But they've refused to fix it for so long that I imagine what few players remain would be OK with it.

But WoW has so much potential. With proper social and versions, WoW should crack 20 million subs in todays world. Its criminal how they let it rot. The core of WoW is amazing. Combat is so smooth and responsive. Its bright and fun in parts and grim in others. Its a shining star. But its their game. They do not care.

Why do they need anyone - they can just ask you. 8K Blizzard empolyee, 60B worth, 18 years of business case. They know nothing - but some dude at MMO-C is promising 20M people.

[arkanon]

My bad - the Square Enix stock is actually doing very good. It didn't last year I checked.

You didn't answer my question, why not? Have another go and think about what's being asked.

[Gorsameth]

1. players DONT evolve. they all want the same thing across every era. They mostly want social.
2. blizz detroyed social and the community in wrath.
3. wow dropped from 12 million down to a piddly 2-3 million.
4. the fundamental systems have started breaking down as they now need to do cross realm to fill raids and m+
5. they still refuse to fix social.

everything else is nonsense. DF brought NOBODY back. its still down to that piddly 2-3 million, just BARELY enough to keep the systems going. barely. its just gonna take one more hit to topple this thing. they cant do cross realm again. thats a one time fix.

its gonna be like how d3 died. a game filled with 5 deniers screaming the game is great.

Every chance, literally every chance you give players to not be social they take with both arms.
The notion that players want to be social is complete bullshit. Every time you give players the choice not to interact with another human being they take it.

[Beuargh]

Every chance, literally every chance you give players to not be social they take with both arms.
The notion that players want to be social is complete bullshit. Every time you give players the choice not to interact with another human being they take it.

I took every chance with both arms. I'm mostly a solo player now, using LFG/LFR to see the content. I have a macro to say "hi" at the start and "thx" at the end. no guild since the end of cata, no schedule to play anymore. that said, my account ran out of time yesterday and I don't plan to come back until the last patch of this xpac.

[Thirtyrock]

1. players DONT evolve. they all want the same thing across every era. They mostly want social.
2. blizz detroyed social and the community in wrath.
3. wow dropped from 12 million down to a piddly 2-3 million.
4. the fundamental systems have started breaking down as they now need to do cross realm to fill raids and m+
5. they still refuse to fix social.

everything else is nonsense. DF brought NOBODY back. its still down to that piddly 2-3 million, just BARELY enough to keep the systems going. barely. its just gonna take one more hit to topple this thing. they cant do cross realm again. thats a one time fix.

its gonna be like how d3 died. a game filled with 5 deniers screaming the game is great.

I don't think you & I are going to come to any sort of agreement on solutions because we don't agree on the problems. I hope you find a game you enjoy!

[Lei]

You realize the point of sharding/phasing tech is to make servers seem more populated when they aren't? There's only really a handful of servers that are "high pop", the rest are middle to low pop. And while server connections/merges are a good idea, they aren't easy to do (otherwise we'd see more of them). The whole point is to make the world seem fuller.

Unless it's too full so then it creates a new shard/phase to put players in. The problem is the size definition of a zone can be troublesome. Take any zone, and put 100 players in it. Because of clustering of players, sometimes a zone might feel "empty" but is actually full with most of the players over in a different area of the same zone. You just can't tell because you aren't over there.

Now what IS lost now is server identity. Which leads into one of the reasons why we have issues with PuG but that is for another thread.

First: This is only true for older zones. sharding in current zones doesn't pull people from other realms.
Second: I log into Valdrakken and I can't see my f.cking guild mates, because we are on different shards. MY GUILD MATES! I clearly remember that when sharding became a thing this was a huge problem and the devs promised that the sharding tech would try to put you and your guildies on the same shard. That didn't happen seems like it. Or what about trying to "stalk" and prank my friends not in my guild and they are not on my shard?
How and when did this become acceptable?

I support sharding when it pulls people from other realms in old, empty zones. I fully despise sharding to spread players on the same realm into "layers" of the same place.

[Arai]

The game is getting really stale. I tried M+ with some alts after my main was geared and I had my 2.75k+ rating but its just so boring and the balance sucks hard. Just had a +18 Jade key on Fortified. Invited a 415 Druid Tank with 2.45k io. He got oneshot (100% in 0.5 sec) twice in the room of the 3rd boss and rage quit after that.
Im simply not gonna bother with this bullshit, the game isnt fun enough that I deal with crap balancing, shitty affixes and boring dungeons. I already regret buying a month of gametime yesterday but wanted to loot the Vault. They REALLY need to step up their game with content.

[Alroxas]

1. players DONT evolve. they all want the same thing across every era. They mostly want social.
2. blizz detroyed social and the community in wrath.
3. wow dropped from 12 million down to a piddly 2-3 million.
4. the fundamental systems have started breaking down as they now need to do cross realm to fill raids and m+
5. they still refuse to fix social.

everything else is nonsense. DF brought NOBODY back. its still down to that piddly 2-3 million, just BARELY enough to keep the systems going. barely. its just gonna take one more hit to topple this thing. they cant do cross realm again. thats a one time fix.

its gonna be like how d3 died. a game filled with 5 deniers screaming the game is great.

1. Players don't evolve? Are you kidding me? 10 years ago players could spend 40+ hours in WoW without meaningful consequence. Now those same players might have jobs, kids, other responsibilities that mean they can't spend that same amount of time in-game.

2. Is it really Blizzard or is it the convenience QoL changes that players wanted? LFD/LFR/Group Finder made it easier so you could do dungeons/raids on YOUR schedule instead of trying to find a group that matched your available times. Granted this meant that server identity and community became less important with some other harmful side effects.

3. True WoW is not at its lifetime peak of players but look at the playerbase demographic and the market. As they say, no king rules forever.

4. the fundamental systems have started breaking down - hilarious, you DO know they brought back classic servers right? And just how well have those servers done? Sure at launch of Classic Vanilla, Classic BC, Classic Wrath - the numbers are high but they drop off fast. And those raid bosses, downed in hours because players already KNOW the mechanics, KNOW how to get the most out of their classes. Blizzard had to even roll out seasonal servers because folks might have missed the first (repeated) time X happened (i.e. the gates of Ahn'Qiraj opening)

5. What issues of social are your referring to? That isn't affected due to QoL changes and also consider the impact of the removal of those QoL changes.

- - - Updated - - -

First: This is only true for older zones. sharding in current zones doesn't pull people from other realms.

Funny I see folks from other servers all the time in Valdrakken on my server. What server you on?

Second: I log into Valdrakken and I can't see my f.cking guild mates, because we are on different shards. MY GUILD MATES! I clearly remember that when sharding became a thing this was a huge problem and the devs promised that the sharding tech would try to put you and your guildies on the same shard. That didn't happen seems like it. Or what about trying to "stalk" and prank my friends not in my guild and they are not on my shard?
How and when did this become acceptable?

Again, refer back to the layer/sharding issue I referred to. It could be that the layer/shard you're in is already at a high number of players (just not in your visual vicinity). But let's get some more detail, in this Valdrakken instance where you can't see your guildmates, is it crowded? Are there plenty of players there already? Or is it empty?

[Zorachus]

The game is getting really stale. I tried M+ with some alts after my main was geared and I had my 2.75k+ rating but its just so boring and the balance sucks hard. Just had a +18 Jade key on Fortified. Invited a 415 Druid Tank with 2.45k io. He got oneshot (100% in 0.5 sec) twice in the room of the 3rd boss and rage quit after that.
Im simply not gonna bother with this bullshit, the game isnt fun enough that I deal with crap balancing, shitty affixes and boring dungeons. I already regret buying a month of gametime yesterday but wanted to loot the Vault. They REALLY need to step up their game with content.

YEP crap like this is forcing players to leave.

[Lolites]

1. players DONT evolve. they all want the same thing across every era. They mostly want social.
2. blizz detroyed social and the community in wrath.
3. wow dropped from 12 million down to a piddly 2-3 million.
4. the fundamental systems have started breaking down as they now need to do cross realm to fill raids and m+
5. they still refuse to fix social.

everything else is nonsense. DF brought NOBODY back. its still down to that piddly 2-3 million, just BARELY enough to keep the systems going. barely. its just gonna take one more hit to topple this thing. they cant do cross realm again. thats a one time fix.

its gonna be like how d3 died. a game filled with 5 deniers screaming the game is great.

1. completely incorrect
2. your opinion
3. while 12m is true (lets not debate how it might be inflated), unless you have some actual numbers other than some asspull, its again just your opinion its on 2-3m players... might be more, might be even less, truth is we dont know, but thats still moot as it have very little to do with social aspect and more to do with hundreds of other things
4. cross realm exists since pandaria...
5. there is nothing to fix there is MORE oportunities to be social, but people are less social bcs they DONT WANT TO BE, simple as that
like literaly, all social systems and aspects that were ingame still exist, and we have few more (cross realm guilds, communities, real ID friends...) on top of it...

and unless you have any sources on that "DF brought NOBODY back." is again your very biased opinion, nothing more...
also 2-3m being barely enough to keep systems going? dont make me laugh, other MMOs that are active for years would kill to have that much players...

to sum it up, by accident you describe your own comment - "everything else is nonsense"

[Lei]

1. Players don't evolve? Are you kidding me? 10 years ago players could spend 40+ hours in WoW without meaningful consequence. Now those same players might have jobs, kids, other responsibilities that mean they can't spend that same amount of time in-game.

2. Is it really Blizzard or is it the convenience QoL changes that players wanted? LFD/LFR/Group Finder made it easier so you could do dungeons/raids on YOUR schedule instead of trying to find a group that matched your available times. Granted this meant that server identity and community became less important with some other harmful side effects.

3. True WoW is not at its lifetime peak of players but look at the playerbase demographic and the market. As they say, no king rules forever.

4. the fundamental systems have started breaking down - hilarious, you DO know they brought back classic servers right? And just how well have those servers done? Sure at launch of Classic Vanilla, Classic BC, Classic Wrath - the numbers are high but they drop off fast. And those raid bosses, downed in hours because players already KNOW the mechanics, KNOW how to get the most out of their classes. Blizzard had to even roll out seasonal servers because folks might have missed the first (repeated) time X happened (i.e. the gates of Ahn'Qiraj opening)

5. What issues of social are your referring to? That isn't affected due to QoL changes and also consider the impact of the removal of those QoL changes.

- - - Updated - - -



Funny I see folks from other servers all the time in Valdrakken on my server. What server you on?




Again, refer back to the layer/sharding issue I referred to. It could be that the layer/shard you're in is already at a high number of players (just not in your visual vicinity). But let's get some more detail, in this Valdrakken instance where you can't see your guildmates, is it crowded? Are there plenty of players there already? Or is it empty?

"All kinds of servers"
You probably see people from your server clusters/connected realms. Or people who are in groups with someone on your realmcluster. Or people who have been not phased back to their home realm after leaving their groups. But these are not "random". Unlike in old zones where you can really see people from everywhere.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Connected_Realms

[Thirtyrock]

Snip because I have nothing to add, well said.

- - - Updated - - -
Funny I see folks from other servers all the time in Valdrakken on my server. What server you on?

Again, refer back to the layer/sharding issue I referred to. It could be that the layer/shard you're in is already at a high number of players (just not in your visual vicinity). But let's get some more detail, in this Valdrakken instance where you can't see your guildmates, is it crowded? Are there plenty of players there already? Or is it empty?

As far as seeing people in the game, I see people literally all the time when I'm doing open world stuff. You just have to do the content, like feasts, hunts, Primal Invasions, Primal boss event, Siege, cobalt farm, Wrathion/Sabellian area that are designed to be social. I regularly get invited to random groups or whispered for help with stuff. Even when I don't group with these players, we often end up playing "together" as we move from objective to objective in synchronistic. It's actually really nice, compared to previous expansions where the main outdoor content designed for groups were world bosses, which are weekly. Now I get to see, and play with, other players pretty much every time I log in. Keep in mind, most of my non-raid time is early mornings, where the player count is LOWER than in the afternoon or early evening. When I play during peak times, I see far MORE players.

I think a lot of people complaining about the world being empty haven't played in Dragonflight OR they refuse to do the content that is designed for groups/multiple players. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

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The game is getting really stale. I tried M+ with some alts after my main was geared and I had my 2.75k+ rating but its just so boring and the balance sucks hard. Just had a +18 Jade key on Fortified. Invited a 415 Druid Tank with 2.45k io. He got oneshot (100% in 0.5 sec) twice in the room of the 3rd boss and rage quit after that.
Im simply not gonna bother with this bullshit, the game isnt fun enough that I deal with crap balancing, shitty affixes and boring dungeons. I already regret buying a month of gametime yesterday but wanted to loot the Vault. They REALLY need to step up their game with content.

Either bears are woefully undertuned or he doesn't know how to use his CDs. I genuinely don't know, because I don't bear. But my raid's main tank, who is a bear, isn't having those kinds of problems in M+. /shrug

[HansOlo]

You didn't answer my question, why not? Have another go and think about what's being asked.

Do you really think you can boss me around with after our conversations?

Quartly reports affects the stock market. It doesn't tell you how fun the game is, but you might have an indication of how the business is. Blizzard is doing just fine, regardless whatever shitstorm they been in. Essentially, they are somewhat reaching thier target(i.e 3M subs might be low for you, but it might be enough for them to run the business).

If people wants to speculate - they should back it up with the stocks. It very healthy for the discussion, it's a classic approach and it's existential for the business(Bobby K is measured on this metric).

If WoW was about to die, the first signs will be in the stocks.

Equally - if Square Enix stocks dropped - you might speculate, how that will affect FF in case it lacks funding(depending on the strategy, making it P2W, subs or something else. And then you speculate in the consequences).