Actually, I don't think Valdrakken or Dragon Isles looks that cool

[FelPlague]

Sorry mate, but only a manager's foolishness could equate those.
And remember, "A manager is a person that thinks that nine women could deliver a baby in 1 month because one can do it in nine."; no sense for underlying structures and deep complexity.

Barrens: Sandy savannah, also no highlands, nothing windswept and jagged, like you would jnow if you had visited the Andes.
Badlands: So static, no water, more a desert than anything close to what i described.
Blasted lands: Again a dead desert, nothing even close.

You can pretend your equating of unequal things means Blizzard has ticked those boxes, so to speak, but practically it really does not work like that at all.
Go travel a little, you'll know what i mean (and with that i do not mean "visit the tourist traps and the thoroughly worn beaten path where everyone speaks suspiciously good english and the prices are ten to twenty times as high as for the locals.").


You really do not know what tsingies are if you think they are not a biome in themselves.
As to the mud volcanoes: Congrats for tearing that one out of context. "Mud volcanoes in Costa Rica" uses the "mud volcano" part as a pars pro toto, meaning that in a fully descriptive sentence (as you apparantly require that) it would be something like "that biome in Costa Rica with pretty famous mud volcanoes".
No, i do not expect you to know that sort of biome by heart, but i do expect you to be able to properly read a sentence and be able to evaluate whether you know that biome. And to look it up if it interests you.

You really have trouble seeing forest for the trees, don't you?

What the what is this entire first segment about. Did you go to my profile and just read manager and not the rest?
Cause I know the saying, and I know why it doesnt work, which is why I let my editors have as much time as they need as long as its not EXESSIVLY long like 1-2 months for a 10 minute video.
What are you on about?

You said the sunscorched andes which are different then the lush andies you are now saying.
The andies are HUGE and span from lush farmland to rounded forests to desert to snow. (Edited image to show the changing climate within the different parts)

This post screams ego because of the "I have traveled the world, THE REAL WORLD, not a filthy peasant tourist trap like you"
What the hell does that matter about anything my dude? Nice bragging on MMOChamp about traveling the world on daddies money I guess?

[SuperKarateDeathCar]

I've felt this way for a while in WoW. Both Shadowlands and seemingly DF feel samey. Revendreth and Bastion had interesting uses of the same old stuff. But there isn't a lot of imagination going on.

I knew it was a problem when they released Zereth Mortis. Not only did the aesthetic not come anywhere close to what I would expect, they hyped the physics of water when it was just waterwalking applied. ??? Ok.

lol I remember that. They were talking about it as if it was some new amazing thing that has never been done!!! I thought it was odd. Like yeah, it's us walking on water... Not that exciting...

[arkanon]

lol I remember that. They were talking about it as if it was some new amazing thing that has never been done!!! I thought it was odd. Like yeah, it's us walking on water... Not that exciting...

Yup - i think the biggest issue with this announcement was how heavily they hyped it, and even while watching the announcement, listening to them hyping this amazing new world, but what i was seeing was........nothing even remotely special.

[SuperKarateDeathCar]

Yup - i think the biggest issue with this announcement was how heavily they hyped it, and even while watching the announcement, listening to them hyping this amazing new world, but what i was seeing was........nothing even remotely special.

I mean anything like that always does that. Have you seen like Chef or Fashion documentaries? They are are so over the top in their remarks it's ridiculous. Like this sweater designed by Dior is somehow going to cure cancer and halt climate change.

[FelPlague]

Yup - i think the biggest issue with this announcement was how heavily they hyped it, and even while watching the announcement, listening to them hyping this amazing new world, but what i was seeing was........nothing even remotely special.

Actually for all 3 of you, it was not water walking applied, we actually were walking beneath the surface of the water, and had its own psychics of creatures being beneath us that could be seen but not targeted or interacted with without special means like quest items. Its not a big difference but in the development view it was.

Also hey nice signature. Ya got me forgetting to add Endgame before that part, cause my point was "If you aint doing endgame why do you need endgame gear?" when he was bringing up needing to be able to get 400 ilvl gear right away on making alts.

[arkanon]

Actually for all 3 of you, it was not water walking applied, we actually were walking beneath the surface of the water, and had its own psychics of creatures being beneath us that could be seen but not targeted or interacted with without special means like quest items. Its not a big difference but in the development view it was.

Also hey nice signature. Ya got me forgetting to add Endgame before that part, cause my point was "If you aint doing endgame why do you need endgame gear?" when he was bringing up needing to be able to get 400 ilvl gear right away on making alts.

Nothing you said relates in any way at all to what I said. Did you reply to the wrong person? Why are you talking to me about water walking? What the hell kind of reply is this?

[FelPlague]

Nothing you said relates in any way at all to what I said. Did you reply to the wrong person? Why are you talking to me about water walking? What the hell kind of reply is this?

???

[arkanon]

???

It relates to what THEY said, not what I said. I simply said they overhyped it and the feedback was immediate and almost universal - people were not impressed.

[Aucald]

You've said easter eggs to a few people now.

Why do you think putting easter eggs everywhere = interesting world design?

For reference; I think vashj'ir is the best designed zoned in WoW and there's like no easter eggs.

That kind of sums up the ultimate subjectivity of zones being well-designed or having great art. I personally think Vashj'ir is one of the worst zones in WoW - and I don't just mean its janky water-walking/swimming mechanic but also its one-note aesthetic, repetitive color scheme, and just its general ambiance. I did it once on my main and swore I'd never subject myself to it again.

That being said, I do agree that the frequency of easter eggs is not equivalent to quality or interesting world design.

[arkanon]

That kind of sums up the ultimate subjectivity of zones being well-designed or having great art. I personally think Vashj'ir is one of the worst zones in WoW - and I don't just mean its janky water-walking/swimming mechanic but also its one-note aesthetic, repetitive color scheme, and just its general ambiance. I did it once on my main and swore I'd never subject myself to it again.

That being said, I do agree that the frequency of easter eggs is not equivalent to quality or interesting world design.

I lvld every class to max level and for my last toon, decided to 100% vashgina. Honestly, by the end I kind of enjoyed it, but everything you said is accurate - one trick pony, and the trick wasn't even that impressive or interesting. Glad I did it, just to say I had done it, but it was not the most enjoyable experience.

[chrisisvacant]

Actually for all 3 of you, it was not water walking applied, we actually were walking beneath the surface of the water, and had its own psychics of creatures being beneath us that could be seen but not targeted or interacted with without special means like quest items. Its not a big difference but in the development view it was.

Then they should never let developers write their marketing copy ever again because it was sold as a major feature of the zone and it didn't really impact the user experience anywhere near what is promised.

And if I'm understanding you correctly, it's not very different from merely having waterwalking applied. Yes, under water as in a thin rivulet of liquid was over your feet as if collision point of the object (water) was set a few degrees lower than normal.

We've had objects you could selectively interact with before.

When I think "this world has wacky water physics" (paraphrasing), I think, "Oh so it's gonna have like waterfalls that flow upwards, etc" similar to experiencing Nagrand or BEM in BC with the advent of flying.

This was more akin to the Oracle area in MOP, which was a bigger incremental change in UX than ZM ended up being yet without the hype.

[Skildar]

I was able to enjoy a lot of zones in Shadowlands because if you enter them with a sense of wonder then you will be happily surprised about color palettes and aesthetics.

The same cannot be said about Dragonflight. They all feel quite bland. Nothing about the color palette or the architectures will amaze you except for the nozdormu palace (and I've seen enough criticism about that place to feel like it's not enough).

Dalaran worked as a capital city because it's a "mage flying city".But Valdraken doesn't feel one bit like a dragon city. Where are the nests, the eggs, the mass of whelpings, the magic ? Literally no arcane usage except for one dragon that enchanted 4 brooms to swipe the ground... No giant dragons to hoard gold for a bank? no lava moat? no titan watcher or titan guardians helping in the city? What about places where all flights power could have shaped the decor, like earth and rocks fight over luxurious vegetation and arcane veins covering them under a ceiling that is half timesands and half green visions of the emerald dream? The ideas for making dragon homes are endless and none that were used are hitting the mark. That city is a huge let down.

It's not only an artistic issue with the expac. Main quest campaign has a good rythm except for the end and the whole arc of restoring oath stone isn't really grasping and clearly lacks spectacle. Seeing Alexstraza and Wrathion fight against Raszageth is satisfying but then accompanying Kalecgos on the road to depression without any uplifting event when Senegos joins him was very weak.

Up until now everything has been bittersweet. I really hope they pick up from there because Shadowlands with its horrible narration was far superior to Dragonflight.

[Clone]

Did they sack some of their other artists? Its not that it's bad, but, it just doesn't look stunningly remarkable take your breadth away type, like we've seem to have had every expansion. /shrug

All those quests that show you vistas, and comment how great it looks.. kinda feels like they're bragging about their work in-game, and I look at it, and have never felt it was that special.


Then come to Valdrakken, I would imagine it would have more of a spiky horned look than an elven (greco-roman) look. I get it, Dragons and elves and tians all have this thing going, but Bastion's - Elyssian Hold, Revendreth, Dazar'alor, Zuldazar, Suramar, , Skyhold, Auchindouin, Shattrath, , Dalaran, Silvermoon, Kezan. Ulduar - these are all so distinctive, and incredibly diverse and individulaly stylstic. This seems somewhat lacking or at least just not as inspiring... almost incomplete.


I dunno, maybe it's because the view quests brag so much, or maybe because it has such a Northrend meets Pandria feel to it or the landscapes are all too similar - Thaldrazsus, Ohn'aran plains and Waking Shore, only look slightly different, even Azure span, - makes more sense for a continent, but not what we are use to in terms of diversity...


I mean look at landscape wise, Arden Weald, Bastion, Zandalar, Val'sharah, Suramar, Azsuna Shadowmoon Valley, Frostfire ridge, Taladar, Tanaan, etc - these were stunning - and others linke Stormsong Valley, nagrand, , Stromheim, Revendreth - where all lovely. With most of Dragon Isles, i just htink, that's nice, or pleasant enough. Not breath taking like some of hte previous stuff.


I think I might be the only one who feels this way.

I think it's fine. WoW desperately needs some degree of subtlety. Not everything has to be in your face.

[Malkiah]

With a game this large making zone after zone for nearly 20 years, won't something always be a "rehash" or "recreation" of something that already exists? Azure Span is very much like Grizzly Hills.. like, clearly this was intentional - right down to the score.

well sure, i mean that's art writ large - everything is technically a rehash of everything, i'm not one of those loonies who believes that pure artistic originality is realistic to expect all the time.

but i think it's valid to criticize the art direction in DF because these rehashes aren't in service to capturing a thematic spirit, either as homage to the original zones or to any new convention.
yes, the western half of azure span is clearly going "look! look! remember grizzly hills? didn't you all love grizzly hills? that means you love this too right?"
but unlike grizzly hills, span isn't acting on any thematic level and so instead of loving homage or even naked-but-effective-nostalgia baiting, it's more like a 57 year old crack whore smearing on 8 layers of lipstick and going "ain't i still pretty?"

Folks can rag on Blizzard if they want I guess, but don't rag on their art. Let's not be ridiculous here.

i'm not ragging on the art in terms of the artists btw, i'm ragging on the art direction which is a completely different thing.

[Chickat]

I guess Outland, Teldrassil, Darkshore, Ashenvale, Felwood, Blasted Lands, etc, don't exist in your idea of "traditional fantasy warcraft".

Traditional Warcraft fantasy like Warcraft 3, wrath, Cata.

I get that at this point Outland etc could be traditional WC fantasy, but I mean grounded down to earth zones like what we would have in Vanilla.

[Apatrida]

I feel the same as OP. So many reused art assets and the world was build around Dragonflight racing courses it seems.

[Zodiark]

I think I agree with you and I probably should've made myself a bit clearer.

In terms of the outdoor design, the 'geology' of the dragon isles feels great. I just think they could've done more architecturally to differentiate the zones from previous epochs. It would have been more satisfying to get the feeling of exploring a lost and ancient past and to explore the differences visually in the zone design. While it's explained in various quests, I don't feel Valdrakken is a lost ancient city any more than Ironforge or Suramar, maybe even less so?

It's not helped by the decision to make the only two native town dwelling races semi-nomadic tribal cultures. Unfortunately because the Tuskarr and Centaur culture seems largely the same as Northrend and Kalimdor, it too doesn't feel like they've experienced any real separation though I'm not well enough versed in their lore to know if that's explained.

More or less Cantaur and Tuskarr have been the same since forever. They have ways of passing on knowledge and wisdom that transcends physical separation by distance. I have played WoW almost since the beginning of the game in 04' but I can't remember all the exact details either. But nothing I've seen so far has given me and lore-wise red flags. At least regarding those two races. The Centaur was I believe the easier of the two Lore-Wise because they really weren't dealt with all that much within the game. So they were more of a clean slate. Tuskarr were a little more fleshed out but as far as actual written lore it was more or less the same actually.

[RahEndymion]

More or less Cantaur and Tuskarr have been the same since forever. They have ways of passing on knowledge and wisdom that transcends physical separation by distance. I have played WoW almost since the beginning of the game in 04' but I can't remember all the exact details either. But nothing I've seen so far has given me and lore-wise red flags. At least regarding those two races. The Centaur was I believe the easier of the two Lore-Wise because they really weren't dealt with all that much within the game. So they were more of a clean slate. Tuskarr were a little more fleshed out but as far as actual written lore it was more or less the same actually.

You're not wrong at all.

I just think that focusing on those two and, while potentially not lore breaking, having them be very similar to their previous incarnations is not a good way to demonstrate a truly time lost land mass. While I do like both races and zones, so it's not a complaint as such, I do think there is a lot of missed opportunity to go deeper and explore some different cultures and societies.

Obviously it's just my opinion but from vanilla to now, I've found wow to be it's most compelling, fun and engaging when it's exploring the differences rather than similarities. In the same way that Legion handled the Nightborne, Wrath the Vrykul and Trolls and then MoP with literally everything haha