Stop Pugging and Complaining

[epigramx]

Lockouts only applies to pugging mythic and mostly first bosses which still falls under "easier"

I used "lockouts" also as a metaphor, to also mean that you can't easily replace someone for >m+24 therefore: for obscene levels of difficulty on 5man: toxicity is also more problematic than on easy modes (I could also argue that 5manning itself is overrated because it easily produces brutal metas of a few specs but that's another topic).

If you only do the first bosses of mythic raiding: you didn't do it at all so it's practically off topic (but even if you do try to do those with pugging: it will also be very annoying compared to just replacing the toxic people on easy modes easily).

[erifwodahs]

I used "lockouts" also as a metaphor, to also mean that you can't easily replace someone for >m+24 therefore: for obscene levels of difficulty on 5man: toxicity is also more problematic than on easy modes (I could also argue that 5manning itself is overrated because it easily produces brutal metas of a few specs but that's another topic).

If you only do the first bosses of mythic raiding: you didn't do it at all so it's practically off topic (but even if you do try to do those with pugging: it will also be very annoying compared to just replacing the toxic people on easy modes easily).

So you think toxicity at high level, which is much rarer at the higher difficulties due to players having common goal and being in the similar skill bracket, is worse than toxicity in lower difficulties where people talk all kinds of stupidest shit ever, thinking they are gods gift to their group and it also affects like 300 times more players than 0.1% bracket?

[Alroxas]

So you think toxicity at high level, which is much rarer at the higher difficulties due to players having common goal and being in the similar skill bracket, is worse than toxicity in lower difficulties where people talk all kinds of stupidest shit ever, thinking they are gods gift to their group and it also affects like 300 times more players than 0.1% bracket?

Honestly toxicity is worst at the band of players who want to reach X score (usually 2k but I think it may be 2.4k this season) but aren't really that good for that score (without additional player power) so they project their failures onto the group. Once you reach past 2.5k, it generally mellows out because there aren't any additional rewards (aside from seasonal title for top % of M+ players)

Lower keys though are hell. Makes the following statement ring true: Pugging is the hardest affix.

Lack of knowledge and skill (or disregard of knowledge) makes it incredibly horrible to play well. I don't even want to try M+ on my healer alts this week because the affix combo: Bursting, Grievous is such a PITA with PuGs.

[chiddie]

WoW has failed so much when people say: stop playing with RANDOMS!

How did WoW get to the point where playing only with people in your guild or friends is the only way how to play correctly? And randoms are eeeeevil!!!!11
What is that for a kind of BS game?

In other MMOs you don't have this problem. You even get better rewards if you play with new players.

At some point in history WoW went the wrong path.

WoW has always been like this. If you play with randoms, you do at your own risk (not run failing risk, that happens even without randoms, but consequent anger and harassments).

Best end-game rewards do not reward pugging. And solo play takes you up only to a certain point.

I’m still astonished about how many people still try to pug instead of just abandoning the M+ wheel or the game.

Stop hoping the game will turn into a Warcraftish version of Diablo, it’s never happened in 18 years, it will never happen.

[epigramx]

So you think toxicity at high level, which is much rarer at the higher difficulties due to players having common goal and being in the similar skill bracket, is worse than toxicity in lower difficulties where people talk all kinds of stupidest shit ever, thinking they are gods gift to their group and it also affects like 300 times more players than 0.1% bracket?

I suggest to pug as a raid leader when you do easy shit like normal raiding (and even heroic raiding).

Then you'll see kicking a moron is routine and nothing devastating since they're replaced in seconds.

It's relatively easy to lead with the right tools (e.g. checking their logs).

[Azharok]

I suggest to pug as a raid leader when you do easy shit like normal raiding (and even heroic raiding).

Then you'll see kicking a moron is routine and nothing devastating since they're replaced in seconds.

It's relatively easy to lead with the right tools (e.g. checking their logs).

Do you even have a point ?

[erifwodahs]

I suggest to pug as a raid leader when you do easy shit like normal raiding (and even heroic raiding).

Then you'll see kicking a moron is routine and nothing devastating since they're replaced in seconds.

It's relatively easy to lead with the right tools (e.g. checking their logs).

But it's not the point - I am saying that toxicity is much more of an issue in lower difficulties, therefore much bigger problem too - it's not like toxicity is less severe just because it's lower difficulty - it's as bad as in high keys just much more often. Yes, you can replace a dps in 30s but damage has been done already lol.

I am not saying that everyone is toxic, it's not like every +16 run has some racist/elitist/asshole people, it's just more likely to have them - I really don't find that many asshats, even less targeted at me, but when I do, it's 9/10 times when I am on my alt doing some +16 and someone just starts talking shit for no reason in a +++ run because tank didn't pull 4 pack or healer didn't instaheal avoidable dmg.
By elitist I maean just dumb people thinking that they are good/right in every situation talking down on someone because they did less dps than a tank on some massive aoe pull or shit in those lines.

[epigramx]

But it's not the point - I am saying that toxicity is much more of an issue in lower difficulties, therefore much bigger problem too - it's not like toxicity is less severe just because it's lower difficulty - it's as bad as in high keys just much more often. Yes, you can replace a dps in 30s but damage has been done already lol.

I am not saying that everyone is toxic, it's not like every +16 run has some racist/elitist/asshole people, it's just more likely to have them - I really don't find that many asshats, even less targeted at me, but when I do, it's 9/10 times when I am on my alt doing some +16 and someone just starts talking shit for no reason in a +++ run because tank didn't pull 4 pack or healer didn't instaheal avoidable dmg.
By elitist I maean just dumb people thinking that they are good/right in every situation talking down on someone because they did less dps than a tank on some massive aoe pull or shit in those lines.

yes and no. yes the morons of easy raiding can be the biggest morons. no the 'damage' is much less; or at least it is if you kick them fast because they are replaced extremely easily precisely because it's an easy difficulty; that's why I suggested to pug as a leader because the process is a 2 second thing (including the invite of the replacement).

[erifwodahs]

yes and no. yes the morons of easy raiding can be the biggest morons. no the 'damage' is much less; or at least it is if you kick them fast because they are replaced extremely easily precisely because it's an easy difficulty; that's why I suggested to pug as a leader because the process is a 2 second thing (including the invite of the replacement).

So you are saying some being racist causing less distress in low key than in high key/raid? You kick them at the same speed, but people who were attacked suffer all the same. You are talking about in-game repercussions of having to replace a person as if it was the main issue - you are completely missing the whole point lol. I mean, holy fuck man.

[OokOok]

Child says childish things on Mmo Champion, news at 11.

No one complains about pugging, people complain about players wasting their time in pugs because they lack any form of remorse for their actions. Players who clearly don't belong in a +10 join a +10 with the intent of getting carried to get easy free loot "me me me" without any care or remorse on how it's going to impact he other 4 players day/time.
Players who join a key and then leave it, resulting in the key getting depleted.
Players who don't take the 5minutes to read up on a raid boss because "hey there's 19 other ppl who can do that for me"

the one thing in life we can't ever get back is time, it's literally the only thing in existence you can not get back. You can buy a new liver, you can buy a new heart, you can remove a tumor, you can get an arm or leg transplant, you can buy a new computer, you can get a new car, you can get a new girlfriend.
You can't get time back.

So no, there's nothing wrong with people justifiably upset when someone(most likely you) wastes their time

[Grimbold21]

As someone who has pugged 100% of the M+ he's done so far, and most of them at a medium level (I'm currently doing 15s), I can't say I've met with that much toxicity. It's all quite punctual and rare.

I wouldn't say this is necessarily toxicity, but yday went into a +15 ToJS, and it fell apart because everyone was dieing at the first boss. I think we did it like 3 times, and everyone died, included myself once. It was sort of ironic because the first 2 times I was thinking to myself in frustration "how are you all still dieing to this?!". Then on the 3rd I ran too late from my healer spot away from the middle and the beam began in my direction. Predictably, I got thrown up by the water as the beam came towards me.

But on the 4th time, the tank just left as the party leader asked him how he was dieing all the time, because he did indeed die all the times we tried.

[epigramx]

So you are saying some being racist causing less distress in low key than in high key/raid? You kick them at the same speed, but people who were attacked suffer all the same. You are talking about in-game repercussions of having to replace a person as if it was the main issue - you are completely missing the whole point lol. I mean, holy fuck man.

I could tell that after hearing "so you're saying" it would most probably be followed by a strawman.

No I don't mean most people do vicious racist attacks; those are usually and easily globally banned by the GMs anyway; it's also besides the main point.

Even if people are victims of rudeness: it will be much better if the rude people are kicked and banned in seconds: contrast it to feeling forced to keep a troll for hours on a hard game because you can't replace them as easily.

[schwarzkopf]

Well - after having a complete breakdown, almost heart attack and being diagnosed with heart issues in addition to my disabililty - WoW is now a solo only game.

Before I wanted to play with groups, but everyone threw me out - now the stress involved in trying to find a home is too much to allow me to stay alive.

A shame that it is so damn hard to just play WoW - guild politics, hatred and elitism has to come in and spoil the fun.

I got to iLvl 400 and M+ 1400 before the end though.

[erifwodahs]

Even if people are victims of rudeness: it will be much better if the rude people are kicked and banned in seconds: contrast it to feeling forced to keep a troll for hours on a hard game because you can't replace them as easily.

If anyone keeps troll for hours just because it's hard to replace them, any decent person would just leave. I don't understand your case at all and it looks like your biggest issue is that it negatively affects your gameplay rather than actual human beings, kinda cringe, ngl

[M1r4g3]

But it's not the point - I am saying that toxicity is much more of an issue in lower difficulties, therefore much bigger problem too - it's not like toxicity is less severe just because it's lower difficulty - it's as bad as in high keys just much more often. Yes, you can replace a dps in 30s but damage has been done already lol.

I am not saying that everyone is toxic, it's not like every +16 run has some racist/elitist/asshole people, it's just more likely to have them - I really don't find that many asshats, even less targeted at me, but when I do, it's 9/10 times when I am on my alt doing some +16 and someone just starts talking shit for no reason in a +++ run because tank didn't pull 4 pack or healer didn't instaheal avoidable dmg.
By elitist I maean just dumb people thinking that they are good/right in every situation talking down on someone because they did less dps than a tank on some massive aoe pull or shit in those lines.

As someone gearing their alt in lower keys, yes i 100% agree people in under +17 keys are just awful, 50% of runs i've done resulted in 1 person leaving because of some stupid irrelevant reason or start being passive-aggressive which then makes someone else leave, in 20s however i've pretty much only seen chill people, which makes sense since people at that range probably do have the brain capacity to know when they themselves failed.

[sospec]

That's cause you only do easy stuff. For me pugging can relatively easily get me up to clearing heroic raiding; towards the last bosses of that: you already start seeing heavy toxicity by randoms vs randoms; unfortunately even that level of difficulty doesn't have much depth for me.
This game has its greatest depth for a lot of us only when it goes deep into mythic raiding; but that had an extreme level of commitment requirement to be done in a way that makes you feel you are doing it well; it would be better if it didn't have so much vertical progression.

Calling 3,5k in SL S3 (which roughly translates to key lvl 25 at that time) "easy" is... bold (and that's as euphemistic as I'm willing to go). Sure people did push more extreme and niche keys as a team, and if you were used to running like level 28 keys and beyond, I can understand 25/26 is rather easy from your point of view. My point though was explicetely in the context of exclusively doing pugs, no voice, no preparations beyond flasks etc., just sharing the route and jumping straight in, trusting in the players experience and skill. And for that, depending on the dungeon, keys at level 24-26 was where I could still comfortably do that without burning any significant amount of time on untimed keys.

Besides, what I wanted to express was less focussed on rating, and despite what you went on saying further down: The little toxicity I meet when pugging is indeed in runs of (how I perceive it) lower difficulty, say 12-18, from clearly inexperienced (not negatively connotated) players. The higher the keys get, the more focussed and less toxic people become. Of course, your mileage may vary.
But perhaps I only get lucky runs where everyone is just cool when mistakes and untimed keys happen, or maybe it is because I don't call out players for mistakes and want everyone to keep focussing. Being empathic goes a long way. But I also understand frustration, especially in an environment as ambitious as M+ can be.

[12le1lwq]

It's always funny seeing players that pug for the r1 title complain about LFG. No shit bro, you can compare this to pugging mythic endbosses. ofc your success rate will plummet once you get into 25s as a pug player.

Stop being socially awkward and actively reach out to players asking to play keys together. This is my first season with a dedicated push group and the difference is INSANE! I got title in s2-s4 sl, only being above the cutoff by a couple of points while queuing for keys for several hours per day. Now I'm 100 points above cutoff playing 4x3hours a week with my group