They said they don't want mythic raider force to do mythic plus...

[exsanguinate]

... but still I got all my bis gear from mythic + vault. I raid in a currently 7/8 mythic raid guild and have gotten most of the stuff for the raid from the mythic + vaults and upgrading (not the raid vault). I am absolutely not a fan of mythic + but still feel more or less compelled to do it so i can be of service to my raid.

"If you don't like it don't do it" is not an option tbh. Anyone else feel like this?

[Berkilak]

Yeah. Honestly, they should just add a raid rating based on bosses cleared with breakpoints for upgrades, just like keystone gear.

[erifwodahs]

... but still I got all my bis gear from mythic + vault. I raid in a currently 7/8 mythic raid guild and have gotten most of the stuff for the raid from the mythic + vaults and upgrading (not the raid vault). I am absolutely not a fan of mythic + but still feel more or less compelled to do it so i can be of service to my raid.

"If you don't like it don't do it" is not an option tbh. Anyone else feel like this?

I only do m+ but there are items which only drop in raid for me. Namely rings and trinkets. Everything else doesn't really matter because what's the diff from getting haste/mastery boots from raid or same stats from dungeon.

That's why S4 doublons system should have been expanded on and just let you buy and upgrade any "special" item overtime in accordance to the difficulty of the content you do so raiders can buy m+ trinks and m+ players can get raid loot. Potentially same for PvP? but their loot is deterministic anyways so idk if they would care.

[Weilyn]

... but still I got all my bis gear from mythic + vault. I raid in a currently 7/8 mythic raid guild and have gotten most of the stuff for the raid from the mythic + vaults and upgrading (not the raid vault). I am absolutely not a fan of mythic + but still feel more or less compelled to do it so i can be of service to my raid.

"If you don't like it don't do it" is not an option tbh. Anyone else feel like this?

I tried to do Mythic+ but I already loathe the Diablo 3 style of "End Game" Greater Rift pushing. It's the exact same content done over and over and over and over just with progressively harder mobs for higher iLVL.

[Glorious Leader]

Everyone is forced to do everything! Let's have all fun canceled. Pre-made characters with no vertical progression in any content. That way nobody can ever complain about forced gameplay again!

[Baine]

I dont raid or do M+. So I am not forced ;l

[Swnem]

Maybe you are a mythic+ player afterall.

Look, the thing is the raid looting systems suck. That simple. The devs are so afraid you gear up fast that they prefer to kill all interest in the raid. I honestly expect raids to be downsized in the future.
The raids are made and balanced for the world first guilds and maybe we should get the hint and ignore the raids. Maybe once it collapses they can start making raids and systems for the regular players.

Edit: It was late. Many typos were made. Fixed it.

[uncl55]

Imagine being mythic raider and crying about more way to get gear...

[Soon-TM]

I distinctly remember raiding Nathria and Sanctum over and over, and getting jack@#$& when it came to loot. I also couldn't help noticing that overall drop rates had been nerfed badly, especially in raids. They were supposedly buffed later (in 9.1? Not sure) but it made little difference as far as I am concerned.

Running over and over that overtuned, long as @#$& and generally awful fight that was HC Sylvanas, and with nothing to show for it was the last straw for me.

[erifwodahs]

... but still I got all my bis gear from mythic + vault. I raid in a currently 7/8 mythic raid guild and have gotten most of the stuff for the raid from the mythic + vaults and upgrading (not the raid vault). I am absolutely not a fan of mythic + but still feel more or less compelled to do it so i can be of service to my raid.

"If you don't like it don't do it" is not an option tbh. Anyone else feel like this?

I am a key pusher and raids having better ilvl than what I can get + some clearly superior items (trinkets/rings) is not up my alley either. Almost as if Blizz had done something really good in SL S4 but deterministic loot somehow is the opposite what they want I suppose.

- - - Updated - - -

I tried to do Mythic+ but I already loathe the Diablo 3 style of "End Game" Greater Rift pushing. It's the exact same content done over and over and over and over just with progressively harder mobs for higher iLVL.

And raids are what? You get 8 different fights which would equate 8 different dungeons, except that after first kill of the boss - the boss never gets harder and always gets easier and there is minimal variation to it. I know it's not for everyone, but when you put it through that prism, raiding doesn't sound that interesting either.

[Grimbold21]

I only do m+ but there are items which only drop in raid for me. Namely rings and trinkets.

Does this mean you see yourself as a min/maxer?

Because I only do m+ as well (casually) and I don't feel the need to acquire gear outside of it. There BiS lists for/from raiding and lists for M+. Both my trinkets are from M+

[erifwodahs]

Does this mean you see yourself as a min/maxer?

Because I only do m+ as well (casually) and I don't feel the need to acquire gear outside of it. There BiS lists for/from raiding and lists for M+. Both my trinkets are from M+

I am pushing keys so I guess a kind of min maxing then. Thing is, as we progress through tier, more and more mythic raid gear which is above 421 will be available for raiders + some of the best rings/trinks and it will make a difference. Not that I am pushing world record keys, so there is skill gap which could be close, but saying that the best items available don't matter until you are at Echo level would be very cynical.

[antelope591]

Only using 3 pieces of M+ gear at the moment, 417 ilvl. Depends on the class. Crafted + raid gear is better unless you're a caster I think.

[LordVargK]

I honestly don't get why raid loot is not upgradable like m+ loot is.
And why only m+ get's its vault upgraded.

[Grimbold21]

I am pushing keys so I guess a kind of min maxing then. Thing is, as we progress through tier, more and more mythic raid gear which is above 421 will be available for raiders + some of the best rings/trinks and it will make a difference. Not that I am pushing world record keys, so there is skill gap which could be close, but saying that the best items available don't matter until you are at Echo level would be very cynical.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that people playing at the... not highest, but harder levels would be looking for that extra that allows them to push, even just for a little.

But I hope you can see too, that this is a player choice, and an outcome of how the player approaches the game. A min/maxer will look for the best solutions, but it's also the responsibility of the min/maxer to acknowledge that his choices may lead him to engage with areas of the game he normally wouldn't or prefers not to.

The M+ loot table doesn't necessarily keep you from completing its highest levels with just loot from that pool.

I totally get that one would feel frustrated if the weapons of choice, for example, in m+ have an unfavourable stat combo, while the raid ones have the most suitable one.
Will that keep you from completing 20+ and above keys? Likely not. Would it make you feel better to have those weapons? It would.

[Thirtyrock]

... but still I got all my bis gear from mythic + vault. I raid in a currently 7/8 mythic raid guild and have gotten most of the stuff for the raid from the mythic + vaults and upgrading (not the raid vault). I am absolutely not a fan of mythic + but still feel more or less compelled to do it so i can be of service to my raid.

"If you don't like it don't do it" is not an option tbh. Anyone else feel like this?

Sounds like you've just had some bad luck, honestly. I've barely done any M+, because of a combination of time and inclination, and I'm keeping up with the joneses just fine with raid gear.

It helps that my guild doesn't have a ton of leather wearers and that we only have 3 people total on my tier token, but still, it's just luck. I've been lucky, you've been unlucky. IIWII

[erifwodahs]

But I hope you can see too, that this is a player choice, and an outcome of how the player approaches the game. A min/maxer will look for the best solutions, but it's also the responsibility of the min/maxer to acknowledge that his choices may lead him to engage with areas of the game he normally wouldn't or prefers not to.

Oh absolutely. I just would like to see it in more equal grounds i.e. there shouldn't be ilvl difference between best m+ and best raid loot. Someone who does both should absolutely have some advantage, but imo it should be faster gearing which is very much understandable and should always be the case - exclusive items are not great. I do understand that raiders have same crap to deal with for their trinkets/special items but imagine if there were like 5 items in m+ which were at higher ilvl than what raiders could ever get and some additional "super rare" items which were very powerful and even higher ilvl gap from what raid offers - that is frustrating.

By no means I advocate removal of those things from raids - I just believe pvp and m+ should have their own equivalents for them.

They had great system in S4 SL - could have expanded on that and it would have made raiders/m+ players happy on both sides (realistically someone would complain ofc - it's wow players we are talking about)

[Alroxas]

Almost as if Blizz had done something really good in SL S4 but deterministic loot somehow is the opposite what they want I suppose.

Deterministic loot has it's downsides.

First, it's pretty much makes loot uninteresting. You're always going to go for the highest simming item first. Players will go to X site or Y discord, see the list of things they should buy in which order and be done.

Second, it also means that the design of the raid would have to incorporate players having XYZ items from said list by the time they reach certain bosses. So the tuning would expect players to have those items already. Don't have those items? You'll either need to play exceptionally well or basically be stuck until you have gained enough currency to get BiS item X before proceeding.


SL Season 4 should be treated as a special case exception. Basically it offered "recycled" content on a modified schedule so we weren't bored out of our minds with Season 3 stuff. Good for tackling the post-expansion lull that happens before the next expansion is ready.

[erifwodahs]

Deterministic loot has it's downsides.

First, it's pretty much makes loot uninteresting. You're always going to go for the highest simming item first. Players will go to X site or Y discord, see the list of things they should buy in which order and be done.

Time-gate it. You didn't get mythic ilvl DaddyD trinket on week one - well you could - by a boss drop, not by doublons.
3 items in 6 weeks which also require for you to do highest difficulty raids/m+ content won't influence the balance much because 6 weeks into a tier ilvls will be all over the place anyway - raids are balanced to be killed in first two weeks.
Items don't replace all of the gearing process either, even if it did - farming 40+ CoS/NO for is far from "interesting" gearing - it's frustrating as fuck. I did over 50 NOs and only seen one tank trinket drop - Major DoS scale bloodscale vibes. Want an item from HoV? well GL with that massive item pool.

[Makorus]

Time-gate it. You didn't get mythic ilvl DaddyD trinket on week one - well you could - by a boss drop, not by doublons.
3 items in 6 weeks which also require for you to do highest difficulty raids/m+ content won't influence the balance much because 6 weeks into a tier ilvls will be all over the place anyway - raids are balanced to be killed in first two weeks.
Items don't replace all of the gearing process either, even if it did - farming 40+ CoS/NO for is far from "interesting" gearing - it's frustrating as fuck. I did over 50 NOs and only seen one tank trinket drop - Major DoS scale bloodscale vibes. Want an item from HoV? well GL with that massive item pool.

It's not that though.

At that point, Blizzard might as well make two trinkets for Casters/Physical/Tanks/Healers. And at that point, they might as well remove the trinket slot entirely because every single person will run the exact same trinkets.

Yeah, there are clearly BIS trinkets, but people will still use other trinkets, because they will not all have them. Yeah, I got the trinket from Raszageth, and it's not great, but it's still a trinket I will use and I might enjoy using. If the Dinars were a thing, that trinket might as well not exist because no spec would ever pick it.