Dungeons was more fun before M+

[Obbi87]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

[cigawoot]

Dungeons were relevant for like two months, if that, and then they basically got ignored because they were irrelevant.

If the existence of M+ means 5man dungeons are relevant the whole expansion, then that is a W in my book. You should think of M+ less as a dungeon you consume at your own pace, and instead a 30-40 minute raid boss with checkpoints.

[BeepBoo]

I like M+ more. Even if it didn't exist, we would never get back to the old days of people bumble fucking around, putting symbols on various people "Sheep x, sap diamond, then pull and kite" etc. The days of slowly crawling through a dungeon and figuring things out slowly and deliberately are gone.

They've had plenty of epic longer dungeons since introducing M+ and they've split those into multiple M+ dungeons to fit, so I feel like they could do the same with BRD if they wanted, but it might just be too much work for them.

Honestly, having the ability to gear from 5 man content now is amazing, and the dungeons are fun and high-adrenaline for me when they're high keys.

[Alroxas]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Ah rosy-tinted nostalgia glasses.

No dungeons were a horrible thing. Consider Cataclysm dungeon progression. You literally only ran certain dungeons up to a point and then they became irrelevant at later content patches. Launch dungeons became irrelevant at patch 4.1 for ZG and ZA which were then became irrelevant at patch 4.3 for End Time, Well, and Hour of Twilight.

At least with M+, all dungeons (of that expansion) stay relevant throughout the expansion.

[Garymorilix]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

Fuckin Blackrock Depths?

Okay, go and play your Blackrock Depths in Classic.
You can. Right now.
Oh, wait, nobody plays Classic Vanilla anymore? What a shocker.

This argument, is again, 15 years fuckin late.
Not even in TBC was there dogshit dungeons like Blackrock Depths cuz it's dogshit.
Imagine coming to this conclusion in 2023 instead of 2006.

[Rageonit]

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Factually, that's not true. Blizzard started to back off of that design looooooooong before m+ was even thought of, let alone created. No, they prefer to create linear dungeons, because people, it seems, prefer to run linear dungeons. Also, there's room for deviations, and mega-dungeons are a proof of that. They still can and do create big dungeons (but not big mazes anymore), which can then be later adapted to m+.

[kamuimac]

I feel dungeons was better back when there was no m+. The dungeons felt like a dungeon.

Right now, every dungeon is created with a rule set by m+. It needs to be the correct way.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

Any others who think the same, or do you like m+ more?

nonsense. dungeons were boring and to easy before m+

[Myradin]

Factually, that's not true. Blizzard started to back off of that design looooooooong before m+ was even thought of, let alone created. No, they prefer to create linear dungeons, because people, it seems, prefer to run linear dungeons. Also, there's room for deviations, and mega-dungeons are a proof of that. They still can and do create big dungeons (but not big mazes anymore), which can then be later adapted to m+.

Part of this is also listening to player feedback.

For example a problem with some less linear dungeons during cata is most groups wanted to skip optional bosses. This would cause an issue where players needed loot off of a specific boss. Sometimes the group would be nice, but often it created and argument and resulted in someone being kicked.

M+ is largely an evolution made from observing how players tend to run dungeons.

That being said, I felt like half the SL dungeons felt lifeless, though I rather liked BFA's dungeons.

[Khaza-R]

BRD and many Vanilla dungeons were from a totally different era and design philosophy than the rest of the game.

Vanilla was very much influenced by old school MMOs and dungeons were designed to be mini-zones that were used during leveling. Some of the larger ones spanning a huge level ranges. Although WoW was very casual for its day and allowed you to hit 60 solo leveling, I am guessing at some point in development you were expected to have to grind dungeons to reach max level like most MMOs of that time. By TBC they already completely switched gears and broke massive dungeons into wings that were intended for repeatable content and gearing.

So essentially, stuff like BRD was never really compatible with design of WoW. Its likely just a vestige of a bygone era in MMOs. If you want sprawling dungeons back, the best way to see it incorporated is into outdoor content.

[erifwodahs]

M+ started in TBC? No? So what the fuck does that have to do with "muh UBRS q.q"
Quite opposite - sine Legion we get one mega-dungeon which is a big step from TBC-WoD.

[ro9ue]

I could probably write an essay on this because I also prefer a non-timed dungeon experience. But I can understand how we got here having seen all of their choices and evolutions over the years. I would say they hit an inflection point at the end of Wrath/beginning of Cata where the gogogo mentality hit a fever pitch, they tried to reset us back to tactical CC in Cata and the playerbase flipped.

IMO there's both a playerbase issue at it's core but also a design issue with the dungeons. The playerbase wants gogogo to grind stuff, and understandably, just want to get through each dungeon since it's literally the EXACT same layout and creatures and bosses every time. After you run it 5 times, you just want to get through it. And that's the design issue - it's such a curated, linear experience that if there was no reward for you, why would you ever set foot in them again after the first few times? Which is exactly what happened with WoD. No way to progress your character via dungeons, which were the same linear experience, so it was dead content outside of the CMs. And thus M+ is born with affixes and timers in Legion.

There may be a future where a dungeon can change in layout (procedural maps) and mob types and bosses to the point where players are forced to approach everything more tactically and actually have to Sap and Poly stuff again, but WoW is an old game and not sure they'll ever add that tech. Closest we've seen to it was Island Expeditions/Torghast.

IDK, I feel you but I also don't think we'll ever get that back.

[kranur]

Maybe they were more fun, but they were only fun for a very limited time. And a lot of part of that fun came because of very different mindsets where people actually took the time to enjoy them.
And there are larger dungeons ... ever since legion each expansion gets a megadungeon that is later on split. Sure, not even those are to the scale of BRD, but let's be honest .. long ass dungeons are not really appealing.
If retail is to go back to raid or die, given then current difficulty and time constraints required, it will have a massive decline in players, so M+ does a very good job at keeping people who can't commit to raid schedules engaged.
Don't get me wrong M+ comes with it's own set of issues but they are much better at letting people do something.

[Swnem]

I would certainly like it more if there wasn't a timer and only the challenge.
The timer is there for e-sports and thrust into us with little purpose.
It does push the community into an optimal route way. It's the main source of the toxicity. The timer system makes the whole thing worse. Without it and key degradation, it would be a way less toxic experience. Just a challenge that you must overcome and if someone wants to leave, so be it. You can get a replacement. They can turn on the timer in the invitational if they want. It's another case of the game being designed for the top 100 players and screw the rest of the idiots.
Eventually it will come to an end.

[Zardas]

I feel like megadungeons are a way to get a semi-classic dungeon experience, while providing one suitable for m+

[Finlandia WOAT]

.

Also why, we will never see Blackrock Depths

No dungeon since Blackrock Depths has been Blackrock Depths. Classic dungeons were designed with the assumption players would do them once or twice, not farm them as content in and of themselves.

And you clearly never had to run that place 20 times for Hand of Justice lol. I thought Classic killed this rose tinted view of how everybody loved BRD, but I guess not.

[Azharok]

M+ started in TBC? No? So what the fuck does that have to do with "muh UBRS q.q"
Quite opposite - sine Legion we get one mega-dungeon which is a big step from TBC-WoD.

MoP introduced challenge mode, and Legion converted it to M+.

[Soon-TM]

I do appreciate what they tried to do with BRD.... from a purely RP point of view. But when it comes to actual gameplay, non-linear dungeons always had their fair share of problems, for example people wanting to do skips, even if someone from the group needed something from an optional boss/location (the T0.5 quest series was perhaps the worst offender). Or full runs taking almost as long as a full fleged raid, but with much worse loot... And let's rather not mention how awful felt if you were unlucky enough to wipe. I still remember hunter/warlock pets in UBRS pulling half the dungeon when jumping into the Drakkisath arena.

There is a reason that they never did another dungeon in the same fashion, whether it is before or after BRD. We still have more "ample", less linear dungeons in the form of Kara 2.0 or Mechagon, which I have personally enjoyed a lot (except for some very annoying mechanics in the latter lol).

[Valette]

I feel like the mega dungeons solve this "Every dungeon has to fit m+" claim. Both legion kara and Tazavesh were made with m+ in mind and are both brilliant dungeons that really stand out from the rest.

[paxen]

The claim that "every dungeon has to fit M+" is repeated a lot and is factually false. The overly linear dungeons appeared in TBC, eg Shattered Halls*.

Even now dungeons aren't desgined specifically for M+, and it does cause a little friction, but nothing that can't be overcome.

Remember how fun it was to fly with the valkyries between platforms in Spires of Ascension for 130th time



*linear dungeons aren't really a thing that's good for M+ anyway. M+ fully supports having multiple paths through a dungeon and lots of players enjoy being able to plan their own routes.

[Alroxas]

*linear dungeons aren't really a thing that's good for M+ anyway. M+ fully supports having multiple paths through a dungeon and lots of players enjoy being able to plan their own routes.

Which is one of the reasons I disliked Grimrail Depot as a M+ dungeon. Very linear and no real route flexibility.

But leave it to players to find unique routes like the one in Azure Vaults where you jump from one level to another (instead of using the book teleporters).