Are Evokers getting a new spec?

[[Apok]]

By the wording of the quest, it doesn't specifically mention evokers, so the tank could allude to a non-evoker tank dracthyr.

[Auxis]

I honestly think there’s too much evidence to ignore this as likely. From little hints back around launch to quest text literally telegraphing it on the PTR; if this amounts to nothing it’ll be more wild than the alternative.

…
But … how do you not let us test the spec? How confident could they possibly be? It’s all so crazy!

Possible they could add them in a later build but that might be pushing it. More than likely if it is real, dropping it in a x. patch leaves more room for pre testing and live tuning before next raid tier in a main patch.

Also, they may have been testing it on their own end for a while if they've had it planned.

[Ielenia]

We're making an argument based on evidence. There's a difference.

There is literally zero conclusive evidence for that.

Which is like saying you can only convict the murderer if they confess, despite the fact that we found the murder weapon in their car and their DNA was all over the crime scene.

Ever heard of 'planting evidence'? In this analogy of yours, the weapon could've been planted there to incriminate the person, and said person could just have been someone who's been to the victim's house often.

You don't return a spec to its summoner roots by nuking it from orbit mid-expansion

Protip: When that happened the next expansion wasn't even announced yet.

"Mid-expansion"? It literally happened in the pre-patch for Legion. That's not 'mid-expansion':


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No, it is not conspiracy theory.

"They are lying to cover up the truth" is literally what a conspiracy theory is. The supposed "lie" in this case is Blizzard's claim that the reason they removed the metamorphosis ability and gameplay from the warlock class because it caused the demonology spec "strayed too far from its origin" and this supposed "truth" is that Blizzard did this because they wanted to bring the DH class in.

Spells were literally taken away from one class and presented to the new class. That actually happened.

Please don't be dishonest. You know full well that this isn't what I accused of being a conspiracy theory.

No one is using them as facts. We are using them as examples of precedent

"This happened (the metamorphosis debacle) therefore this (evoker 3rd spec) is possible" is using conspiracy theory as fact.

[Triceron]

"They are lying to cover up the truth" is literally what a conspiracy theory is.

And you are the only one who said this.

So who are you arguing against? Yourself?

No one actually made this argument here. You just made a statement that no one else made, and then argued against it.

"This happened (the metamorphosis debacle) therefore this (evoker 3rd spec) is possible" is using conspiracy theory as fact

No, it's speculation with precedent for its possibility.

You just said conspiracy is a lie to cover up a truth, and there's no lies covering up anything in that statement of possibility. What lie is there? Are you saying Metamorphosis being taken away from Warlocks is a lie? Are you saying the possibility is a lie? I don't think you thought this through, you're just uttering nonsense and applying terminology that isn't applicable to any of your examples.

[Ielenia]

And you are the only one who said this.

I'm drawing a conclusion from the facts?
• Blizzard says "we've removed the metarmorphosis ability and gameplay from the warlock's demonology spec to return it to its summoner roots."
• You say "Blizzard removed the metamorphosis ability with the intention of giving it to the demon hunter class."
Your statement goes in direct contradiction to what Blizzard stated, which means you're heavily implying, to the point of being considered to be explicitly claiming that they lied in their statement regarding their intentions.

No, it's speculation with precedent for its possibility.

If you're using it as precedent, then you're assuming it is a fact.

[Triceron]

I'm drawing a conclusion from the facts?
• Blizzard says "we've removed the metarmorphosis ability and gameplay from the warlock's demonology spec to return it to its summoner roots."
• You say "Blizzard removed the metamorphosis ability with the intention of giving it to the demon hunter class."

So you're hung up on intention, and calling that a conspiracy right?

Regardless of intention, abilities were removed/taken away from one class, and made its way to another. And that could happen again in the future, with abilities from existing classes making their way to new classes. This is not a conspiracy, it is precedent.

Your statement goes in direct contradiction to what Blizzard stated, which means you're heavily implying, to the point of being considered to be explicitly claiming that they lied in their statement regarding their intentions.

If you're using it as precedent, then you're assuming it is a fact.

Where is the contradiction and lies? They can say they want Warlocks to get new gameplay, and there is no conflict of interest in taking away the old spec's abilities through a rework and giving it to another class. Saying Blizzard took abilities away and gave it to another class is not a lie, nor does it call out Blizzard as liars trying to cover up any 'truth'. All you're saying is you are too short-sighted to recognize they can both be true, and neither action is mutually exclusive.

Whether Blizzard intends to repeat this is up to them, just merely saying it is possible because it happened before isn't a 'conspiracy theory based on lies.'. Your argument is complete nonsense.

As I said, intent isn't even important. Warlocks lost a high-performing Spec that was completely reworked, while Demon Hunters gained abilities that Warlocks lost. Those are facts, do you deny them?

And Losing and Taking Away means the same thing in context to Warlocks no longer having abilities. This is splitting hairs

[enak101]

By the wording of the quest, it doesn't specifically mention evokers, so the tank could allude to a non-evoker tank dracthyr.

But aren't evokers, dracthyr that have mastered all forms of dracthyr combat/abilities or something?

[Stickiler]

But aren't evokers, dracthyr that have mastered all forms of dracthyr combat/abilities or something?

No, Evokers are Dracthyr who're blessed with the ability to wield the magic of the five dragonflights.

[Auxis]

No, Evokers are Dracthyr who're blessed with the ability to wield the magic of the five dragonflights.

From a lore object in the Evoker starter zone:

Edict: Evokers

Every dracthyr is an expert soldier. Whatever weyrn they serve, they use their talents to defend dragonkind in obedience to the Earth-Warder.

Yet even among such illustrious ranks, there are a select few who transcend the skills of their kin. Who are able to master the specialties of all weyrns and shift between roles at will.

These are the evokers. The best of the best, finest of the finest.

These elite forces possess the rare potential to focus their essences into an instrument of preservation or a weapon of devastation.

The journey to such mastery is long, and few dracthyr can see this path through. But those who learn to harness their full potential shall be honored with the title of evoker.

It's worded very weirdly, but I think the intent is that there are several weryns who specialize in certain areas, while the Evokers are special cases who mastered all of their Dragonflight powers equally:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dracthyr#Weyrns

[Teriz]

There is literally zero conclusive evidence for that.

Demonology being made unplayable for over a year. Demon Hunters getting Meta and Warlocks losing meta from the spec that was made unplayable.

"Mid-expansion"? It literally happened in the pre-patch for Legion. That's not 'mid-expansion':

They nuked Demonology mid-expansion and told players not to use it. FYI, Demonology was doing fine at the time, and had been doing fine for almost four years. That happened in June 2015. Legion wasn’t even announced yet.

Look up Ion’s infamous “We’d rather not have you play Demonology” quote. It’s not hard to find.

Which leads us back to Evoker 3rd specs; Spriests are getting a total overhaul for seemingly no reason. So it’s possible that the overhaul is happening to make design space for another spec that can use void abilities. Just like Warlocks were gutted to make space for a new class that also uses demonic magic.

[Stickiler]

Demonology being made unplayable for over a year. Demon Hunters getting Meta and Warlocks losing meta from the spec that was made unplayable.



They nuked Demonology mid-expansion and told players not to use it. FYI, Demonology was doing fine at the time, and had been doing fine for almost four years.

They nuked Demo because it was awful to play, while also being clearly the best DPS, which meant people were switching to it enmasse and having an awful experience. They didn't want to do an overhaul mid-expansion, at the time they explicitly kept overhauls to expansion prepatches.

[Teriz]

By the wording of the quest, it doesn't specifically mention evokers, so the tank could allude to a non-evoker tank dracthyr.

I don’t think the Healing Wing would send a non-Evoker on such a mission. They’d send the best of the best to aid you.

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They nuked Demo because it was awful to play, while also being clearly the best DPS, which meant people were switching to it enmasse and having an awful experience. They didn't want to do an overhaul mid-expansion, at the time they explicitly kept overhauls to expansion prepatches.

Oh stop. It was far from being awful to play. Which is why when it got nerfed into the dirt, Warlock players were pissed. Warlock players were even more pissed when they discovered that the real reason it was done was so that Warlock players wouldn’t miss metamorphoses when it was handed over to Demon Hunters in Legion.

That didn’t work out to well.

[paxen]

I honestly think there’s too much evidence to ignore this as likely. From little hints back around launch to quest text literally telegraphing it on the PTR; if this amounts to nothing it’ll be more wild than the alternative.

…
But … how do you not let us test the spec? How confident could they possibly be? It’s all so crazy!

It could come in 10.1.5 or .7, but if it is in 10.1, it'll hit the PTR only after we've seen the story in 10.0.7 (which is the setup), so...I'm expecting an announcement no earlier than thursday if it's coming to 10.1. They still have a few months of PTR before 10.1 releases.

[[Apok]]

I don’t think the Healing Wing would send a non-Evoker on such a mission. They’d send the best of the best to aid you.

Perhaps but we don't know a huge amount about those that are out of the vault, their numbers or their callings.

I'm not ruling it out, but I'm more convinced that this is just a quest, there's other quests in the game where you can choose a healer or tank specialised npc to help you.

I personally don't think it lends credence to a tank spec,

[Teriz]

Perhaps but we don't know a huge amount about those that are out of the vault, their numbers or their callings.

I'm not ruling it out, but I'm more convinced that this is just a quest, there's other quests in the game where you can choose a healer or tank specialised npc to help you.

I personally don't think it lends credence to a tank spec,

Well it is an Evoker-only quest, so it stands to reason that any Dracthyr present would also be an Evoker.

That said, true there is enough reasonable doubt present to believe that it's a non-Evoker.

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I honestly think there’s too much evidence to ignore this as likely. From little hints back around launch to quest text literally telegraphing it on the PTR; if this amounts to nothing it’ll be more wild than the alternative.

…
But … how do you not let us test the spec? How confident could they possibly be? It’s all so crazy!

Given their seemingly new ability to completely overhaul specializations each patch, they might not believe much PTR testing is required. If something isn't working, they can completely overhaul it from patch to patch.

On a side note; I've seen people say that this could be a Warlock-greenfire quest equivalent. While possible, the Shadowflame aspect would be a bit problematic, since Shadowflame is an actual spell school, and would require Evokers to gain shadowflame damage on all their fire spells.

[Auxis]

Well it is an Evoker-only quest, so it stands to reason that any Dracthyr present would also be an Evoker.

That said, true there is enough reasonable doubt present to believe that it's a non-Evoker.

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Given their seemingly new ability to completely overhaul specializations each patch, they might not believe much PTR testing is required. If something isn't working, they can completely overhaul it from patch to patch.

On a side note; I've seen people say that this could be a Warlock-greenfire quest equivalent. While possible, the Shadowflame aspect would be a bit problematic, since Shadowflame is an actual spell school, and would require Evokers to gain shadowflame damage on all their fire spells.

Well, Destruction Warlock spells remain Fire when changed to Green fire - which is Fel, which is Chaos is it not?

[Firebeast]

Evokers are horrid creatures. Anything else but this would have been better

[enak101]

"Who are able to master the specialties of all weyrns and shift between roles at will." If there is a weyrn who can tank (like the quest of tank dracthyr) then evokers should be able to tank by that definition.

[Teriz]

Well, Destruction Warlock spells remain Fire when changed to Green fire - which is Fel, which is Chaos is it not?

Well TBF Warlocks had chaos and fel abilities, so it could be somewhat justified if all of the effected spells didn't offer the spell school. Also I think there are NPC abilities that are green fire but they're still just fire spells.

However, there are zero shadow or shadowflame spells in the Evoker class. So it doesn't make much sense to give them shadowflame if it isn't really shadowflame.

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"Who are able to master the specialties of all weyrns and shift between roles at will." If there is a weyrn who can tank (like the quest of tank dracthyr) then evokers should be able to tank by that definition.

Also we're missing this Weryn;



Who just happen to resemble Black dragons....

[Triceron]

They nuked Demo because it was awful to play, while also being clearly the best DPS, which meant people were switching to it enmasse and having an awful experience. They didn't want to do an overhaul mid-expansion, at the time they explicitly kept overhauls to expansion prepatches.

Er, Warlock players were plenty happy with the gameplay of Metamorphosis. It certainly wasn't a common consensus that it was 'awful experience'.

And if Blizzard recognized that to be true, why would they literally give that same experience to DH?