Are Evokers getting a new spec?

[Teriz]

Yes but we know blizzard wants the class as a ranged class. If anything we should be giving shamans a tank spec. They already are pretty much set up for it.

I definitely get what Blizzard has been saying, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming; We have Emberthal and her Weryn using melee weapons, and the Evokers have weapon proficiencies that only melee specs can use effectively. I don't see Blizzard giving them a melee DPS spec, because that runs too much into Enhancement and Survival. However, there's no tank spec in the mail column, and we're dealing with black dragons who utilize the earth element.

If we really think about it, no other role is better for boosting allies and debuffing enemies than a tank.

[Ielenia]

I really do wish that you could just report people for being a troll/purposefully obtuse so instead I'll just say that you and I both know that if Blizzard wanted to make it a true support, they would just call it that.

Sorry dude, but I don't play semantics. Again: it doesn't matter how they call the spec. What matters is the role it is supposed to perform. It doesn't matter if the role is called "mender" or "healer" or "curer" or whatever. It's just semantics: it's a healer role.

Again, this is gonna be a DPS class with support utility.

So a normal DPS spec? Because almost all DPS specs in this came has some kind of support utility.

[Staccato]

I definitely get what Blizzard has been saying, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming; We have Emberthal and her Weryn using melee weapons, and the Evokers have weapon proficiencies that only melee specs can use effectively. I don't see Blizzard giving them a melee DPS spec, because that runs too much into Enhancement and Survival. However, there's no tank spec in the mail column, and we're dealing with black dragons who utilize the earth element.

If we really think about it, no other role is better for boosting allies and debuffing enemies than a tank.

I know that personal ideals are fun but its wild that you are asserting that it still could be a a tank spec despite the only sources coming from the people who make the game imply that it is in fact, a ranged spec. Lets start from the beginning:

We see that there's a "3rd spec remembered" toast mention in WoWHead, with the quest https://www.wowhead.com/ptr/quest=72515/the-contingency

"As the energies release, Adamanthia is coming to and is driven mad by torture of ages. Help buy Ebyssian time to subdue her magically. Boss fight. Boost/heal Ebyssian and Emberthal (most efficient method) or throw damage on Adamanthia. High flavor fight, lots of banter."

Neltharion says to Emberthal:

"And Emberthal, you will wield the essence of the Black Dragonflight to augment all those around you with my power."

You could make the argument that Paladins heal and so theoretically a tanking evoker, but that cuts into the Paladin playstyle. You mention Emberthal using a weapon. Ok? There are a ton of heroes in this game that we don't specifically play similar to. My response would be that Evokers don't play like any of how the Aspects exactly do combat anyway, so using Emberthal as a framework IMO wouldn't work. I can see why, but I just don't see the Ranged DPS class taking the one thing that Shamans have been asking for forever.

All because "Earth verr tank"

So a normal DPS spec? Because almost all DPS specs in this came has some kind of support utility.

See? It didn't need to take you so long. It's prob just A DPS class with utility as it's theme. Would it have as much utility as a Holy Paladin? I hope so. I think some of the utility in the form of:

-Making Your ally spells more effective
-movement/placement manipulation
-cooldown reduction
-energy/mana/secondary resource regeneration

Would be cool. Who's to say we aren't going to get something like Bard from Rift? It could be fun. /shrug

[Not Againnn]

probably not. it would make them a must have in any raid comp regardless of any other class utility. probably just a 3rd ranged dps spec using black dragonflight skills

[Teriz]

I know that personal ideals are fun but its wild that you are asserting that it still could be a a tank spec despite the only sources coming from the people who make the game imply that it is in fact, a ranged spec. Lets start from the beginning:

We see that there's a "3rd spec remembered" toast mention in WoWHead, with the quest https://www.wowhead.com/ptr/quest=72515/the-contingency

"As the energies release, Adamanthia is coming to and is driven mad by torture of ages. Help buy Ebyssian time to subdue her magically. Boss fight. Boost/heal Ebyssian and Emberthal (most efficient method) or throw damage on Adamanthia. High flavor fight, lots of banter."

Those are just scenario abilities though. Just because you're healing or dealing damage doesn't mean that either of those abilities represent the new specialization.

Neltharion says to Emberthal:

"And Emberthal, you will wield the essence of the Black Dragonflight to augment all those around you with my power."

You could make the argument that Paladins heal and so theoretically a tanking evoker, but that cuts into the Paladin playstyle. You mention Emberthal using a weapon. Ok? There are a ton of heroes in this game that we don't specifically play similar to. My response would be that Evokers don't play like any of how the Aspects exactly do combat anyway, so using Emberthal as a framework IMO wouldn't work. I can see why, but I just don't see the Ranged DPS class taking the one thing that Shamans have been asking for forever.

The difference here is that Evokers can actually equip those weapons used by Emberthal and her weryn, but since they're currently only casters, they can't use them. So there's no reason for Evokers to currently have 2h axe, mace, and sword proficiency, yet they have it.

As for Augmentation, again no role in a group can more effectively buff allies or inhibit enemies better than the tank can.

The Shaman point is kind of meaningless. Yeah they've been asking for 2H enhance and Shaman tanking for years, but its clear that Blizzard has no plans of ever giving it to them. Evokers getting that highly desired spec concept would be a pretty big boon for the class.

All because "Earth verr tank"

No, because this was Emberthal before she presumably lost her black dragon essence;



Now there is a possibility that Emberthal takes the essence and goes in a different direction with it, but in all seriousness, a tank spec just makes a whole lot of sense here.

BTW, this is not my preferred route for this spec to take. I would prefer a faux-ranged tank concept similar to how Dark Apothesis Warlock was being set to be back in MoP (a caster tank). However, the evidence is shifting more towards an Evoker who wields a 2h weapon.

[Triceron]

What are you talking about?

Augmentation.

What do you actually think it does and what it will be. Because it seems like you think it is a spec everyone needs to bring to a raid, and it's hard to figure out what you think it actually is or does.

Because the leaks don't indicate it will be a necessity, for raids. We know very little of the details of its role and any mechanics. All we know is that it has some sort of ally boosting utility to it, otherwise its actual role is still up to speculation.

[Teriz]

I think it's a tank spec with support style traits this still needs to be playable in 5 man content and if it's pure support and good enough to be played in 5 man content it will be ungodly overpowered in raids.

Yeah, I'm definitely leaning towards tank as well. Every other option either seems ill-fitting, or convoluted. Meanwhile, tank fills a lot of holes in the class.

I'm REALLY hoping for a caster tank, but I bet it's going to be a 2H enhancement shaman clone that can tank.

[Ielenia]

Augmentation.

What do you actually think it does and what it will be. Because it seems like you think it is a spec everyone needs to bring to a raid, and it's hard to figure out what you think it actually is or does.

Because the leaks don't indicate it will be a necessity, for raids. We know very little of the details of its role and any mechanics. All we know is that it has some sort of ally boosting utility to it, otherwise its actual role is still up to speculation.

What do you think a support spec brings to a group? Certainly it's not damage dealing. Certainly it's not healing. And most certainly one isn't bringing a support spec to fill in for a missing tank player. Why wouldn't you bring a spec whose entire reason to be there is to buff the group, and debuff the raid boss? I'm sure tanks and healers would greatly appreciate a debuff that slows the boss' attack speed, or lower its damage, even if by a small margin. The DPS certainly would appreciate a boost to their attack/cast speed, or extra damage to their attacks/spells. Everyone would appreciate greater movement speed to get out of wide 'void zones', etc.

Not to mention that those buffs/debuffs that the support spec bring need to be quite powerful to make their presence in the group worthwhile. Because if they're not, why bring them anyway if all the other classes in the group can already do similar things with equal power and bring good damage on top of that?

[Makorus]

Just wanna throw this out here because the "Dracthyr holding weapon" image muddies the water:

Every Evoker is a Dracthyr, but not every Dracthyr is an Evoker.

[Teriz]

Just wanna throw this out here because the "Dracthyr holding weapon" image muddies the water:

Every Evoker is a Dracthyr, but not every Dracthyr is an Evoker.

True, but one of the Dracthyr holding the weapon is Emberthal herself.

Also Evokers can equip 2h axes, swords, and maces.

[8bithamster]

Wouldn't it make more sense to believe that there's a third spec coming called "Augmentation" where the spec enhances allies and diminishes foes? As wowhead has stated, given the history of Neltharion and Netharian, there is a basis for this type of concept.

EDIT: Oh, didn't realize you hadn't read the lines yet.



They never will.

Nor will you admit that your chance of a tank spec is disappearing. And suddenly jump on the buff/support train.

Pot kettle etc.

[Teriz]

Nor will you admit that your chance of a tank spec is disappearing. And suddenly jump on the buff/support train.

Pot kettle etc.

Did you bother to read my responses right above your posts?

Nah, of course you didn't.

I believe that tank is more likely than support.

[draugril]

Did you bother to read my responses right above your posts?

Nah, of course you didn't.

I believe that tank is more likely than support.

Me too.

But taking the text at face value… you really have to stretch it to fit a tank concept. They’re pretty directly describing a support role. Which is insane and completely out of character, but is nevertheless as plain as day.

[Triceron]

What do you think a support spec brings to a group? Certainly it's not damage dealing. Certainly it's not healing. And most certainly one isn't bringing a support spec to fill in for a missing tank player. Why wouldn't you bring a spec whose entire reason to be there is to buff the group, and debuff the raid boss? I'm sure tanks and healers would greatly appreciate a debuff that slows the boss' attack speed, or lower its damage, even if by a small margin. The DPS certainly would appreciate a boost to their attack/cast speed, or extra damage to their attacks/spells. Everyone would appreciate greater movement speed to get out of wide 'void zones', etc.

Not to mention that those buffs/debuffs that the support spec bring need to be quite powerful to make their presence in the group worthwhile. Because if they're not, why bring them anyway if all the other classes in the group can already do similar things with equal power and bring good damage on top of that?

But that is my point.

Are you actually arguing against the Evoker's rumored Augmentation spec, or arguing a general concept of a support, buff spec that everyone needs in a raid for its buffs and debuffs.

These are not mutually the same thing. And it sounds like the latter more than the former. Like you just don't like any concept of support at all.

There's no reason to assume Evoker's Augmentation is the exact concept of a Support spec that you're trying to describe. We don't know the mechanics so we can't even begin to criticize the role it plays. You've drawn so many conclusions that have nothing to do with Evokers or their possible spec. Saying they will be overpowered and necessary is really jumping the shark here. Look at the actual rumors behind the class, there isn't anything indicating it brings special debuffs necessary for raids.

The DPS certainly would appreciate a boost to their attack/cast speed, or extra damage to their attacks/spells.

We already have that in the form of Bloodlust and Power Infusion, honestly.

[Teriz]

Me too.

But taking the text at face value… you really have to stretch it to fit a tank concept. They’re pretty directly describing a support role. Which is insane and completely out of character, but is nevertheless as plain as day.

Well let’s think about it; Is it possible to develop a tank spec with significant support ability?

For example, let’s say this tank uses 2h weapons and has an ability called Earth Smash.

Tooltip: Earth Smash deals X damage and has a % chance of granting Ebon Might to all party members.

Ebon Might: Increases the Haste, STR, AGI, and INT of party members by X% for 8 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times. At 5 stacks, caster gains Ascendancy.

Ascendancy: your Empowered abilities are fully powered, and instant. Your spells are instant and enhanced.

Or:

Jolt: When you heal yourself with Emerald Infusion, you cast Azure Prowess on a random party member.

I think that would work as a support tank. I think a lot of balance issues associated with a support spec goes away if a tank is doing it.


Soul Breezy had an interesting take on this;

[Ielenia]

But that is my point.

Are you actually arguing against the Evoker's rumored Augmentation spec, or arguing a general concept of a support, buff spec that everyone needs in a raid for its buffs and debuffs.

These are not mutually the same thing. And it sounds like the latter more than the former. Like you just don't like any concept of support at all.

There's no reason to assume Evoker's Augmentation is the exact concept of a Support spec that you're trying to describe. We don't know the mechanics so we can't even begin to criticize the role it plays. You've drawn so many conclusions that have nothing to do with Evokers or their possible spec. Saying they will be overpowered and necessary is really jumping the shark here. Look at the actual rumors behind the class, there isn't anything indicating it brings special debuffs necessary for raids.

Judging by what people keep throwing around about this "augmentation" spec, yes, that is a support spec. Andin this discussion both are technically one and the same in terms of concept. Much like discussing healing and the priest's holy spec abilities in a priest class sub-forum technically are the same thing.

We already have that in the form of Bloodlust and Power Infusion, honestly.

Now imagine that and much more coming from a single spec.

[Makorus]

Well let’s think about it; Is it possible to develop a tank spec with significant support ability?

For example, let’s say this tank uses 2h weapons and has an ability called Earth Smash.

Tooltip: Earth Smash deals X damage and has a % chance of granting Ebon Might to all party members.

Ebon Might: Increases the Haste, STR, AGI, and INT of party members by X% for 8 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times. At 5 stacks, caster gains Ascendancy.

Ascendancy: your Empowered abilities are fully powered, and instant. Your spells are instant and enhanced.

Or:

Jolt: When you heal yourself with Emerald Infusion, you cast Azure Prowess on a random party member.

I think that would work as a support tank. I think a lot of balance issues associated with a support spec goes away if a tank is doing it.


Soul Breezy had an interesting take on this;

The problem is, specs like that don't really work in a game that has 5 man content and even 20 man content if it's a role like tank. Gimmick specs like that are a nightmare to balance. They are either gonna be outright better than other tanks due to being able to do buff other people, or they are useless because their survivability/damage has to take a hit because of them being able to support.

[Teriz]

The problem is, specs like that don't really work in a game that has 5 man content and even 20 man content if it's a role like tank. Gimmick specs like that are a nightmare to balance. They are either gonna be outright better than other tanks due to being able to do buff other people, or they are useless because their survivability/damage has to take a hit because of them being able to support.

TBF, current tanks offer group buffs/debuffs and utility, like Paladin Blessings and Auras, or how DH tanks debuff enemies with Chaos Brand. Again, it simply seems like if you’re going to be augmenting a group, you’re best off being a tank because of how much you can contribute to an encounter by default.

Blizzard would simply need to find a niche to fit an Evoker tank into. Also, it would be interesting to play as an INT tank.

[Staccato]

TBF, current tanks offer group buffs/debuffs and utility, like Paladin Blessings and Auras, or how DH tanks debuff enemies with Chaos Brand. Again, it simply seems like if you’re going to be augmenting a group, you’re best off being a tank because of how much you can contribute to an encounter by default.

Blizzard would simply need to find a niche to fit an Evoker tank into. Also, it would be interesting to play as an INT tank.

Sigh, you know you're very committed to your speculations. I have a hard time believing that they would make a tank support because then there's zero reason to actually call it a tank. You'd have to give a tank a toolset, and then while in melee, often facing AWAY from raids give them support utility. If we were not talking about Evokers, the idea sounds like you're trying to create a paladin again. But Paladins aren't even my point, Shamans are.

Shamans have historically been vying for a tank spec since Burning Crusade. You can make a tank spec fit perfectly with Shamans down to their own spells and theme instead of using a singular image where Emberthal (how many years ago) was using a melee weapon. I think Dracthyr were given the ability to use these kinds of weapons to future proof them for other classes. I find that Emberthal being a support that augmented Neltharion's army is much more believable and within the realm of possibility. Neltharion needed Emberthal alive, and it only fits perfectly that Emberthal played the role of like a Signifier in XC3. Yeah, Emberthal is in fights, but they are booning their allies while using the very magic that Neltharion imparted.

Shamans on the other hand have how many tank adjacent heroes and bosses we've seen? It's a plethora.

If I were to use that one image you keep bringing up I would think that maybe evokers could have a melee spec. This however is a direct copy of the shaman set up already, and blizzard already said they want to keep evokers a ranged spec. All things about this class practically point towards a ranged dps who's theme is just boosting allies for their damage instead of your own.

I could be wrong. If they release a ranged "boosting" tank i'll honestly have a laughing fit

[Makorus]

TBF, current tanks offer group buffs/debuffs and utility, like Paladin Blessings and Auras, or how DH tanks debuff enemies with Chaos Brand. Again, it simply seems like if you’re going to be augmenting a group, you’re best off being a tank because of how much you can contribute to an encounter by default.

Blizzard would simply need to find a niche to fit an Evoker tank into. Also, it would be interesting to play as an INT tank.

It's not tanks that give that, it's the class. Every Paladin has Blessings and Auras. Every DH gives Chaos Brand.

A Buff Tank would have the exact same problem as Disc Priest did for the longest time after Legion when they were still more "damage-through-healing" focused: They are either half-assed tanks because they support, or they are overpowered because they are good at tanking and also buff your entire group.

If they are even remotely good at tanking, every single M+ Group will be tanked by Evokers just because they would offer so much more than any other tank. If they aren't good at tanking, then they will never be taken because you need some baseline tankability.

A Support Class HAS to be a DPS.