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  1. #81
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well Heroism/Bloodlust would be an example. I would relegate that particular ability to only the support specs. Symbiosis, Windfury Totem (OG version), Tremor Totem, Source of Magic, Spirit Link, and Power Infusion would be other examples. I would move those types of abilities over to support specs, and replace the abilities in DPS, Healing, and Tank specs with more DPS, Heal, and tank abilities effectively. They should also get very limited support abilities. For example, a DPS Shaman could get Magma Totem which would increase their personal DPS, but a Support Shaman would get Flamtongue Totem that would increase the DPS of the group.
    Yeah. That'd go well with the entire playerbase. "Hey, you know those abilities that you love to have? Yeah, say goodbye to them. We're giving this to another class."

    But Blizzard could reduce the power of such buffs to only effect the caster in non-support specs, and be full power in support specs.
    Increase the new ones or lower the original ones, the point is the exact same.

    Shaman for example don't really need heroism/bloodlust for soloing.
    Again: how do you think the playerbase will react when their favorite classes are stripped of iconic abilities?
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  2. #82
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yeah. That'd go well with the entire playerbase. "Hey, you know those abilities that you love to have? Yeah, say goodbye to them. We're giving this to another class."
    I'm not giving it to another class, I'm moving the class' support abilities to a dedicated support spec. Shaman will still have Bloodlust/Heroism.

    Again: how do you think the playerbase will react when their favorite classes are stripped of iconic abilities?
    Again, they're not being stripped of anything.

  3. #83
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm not giving it to another class, I'm moving the class' support abilities to a dedicated support spec. Shaman will still have Bloodlust/Heroism.
    So you're saying the enhancement/resto/elemental shaman would not be able to use Heroism? Same situation.

    Again, they're not being stripped of anything.
    Then there's no point in bringing a support class since the other classes can already do what the support class can, and still do greater DPS.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm not giving it to another class, I'm moving the class' support abilities to a dedicated support spec. Shaman will still have Bloodlust/Heroism.

    Again, they're not being stripped of anything.
    So you want in your example shaman to basically be Vanilla Rogues where all they brought was DPS? Dooming Shaman that if they have a patch where they are lackluster to effectively be shunned to only playing Resto/New Support Spec?

    cause that's what will happen
    Last edited by Mysterymask; 2023-03-18 at 02:46 AM.

  5. #85
    blizzard destroyed support specs in WOTLK, severely going into CATA which carried until Legion, but since BFA thru DF have blurred all the lines and we are at point where support is not needed
    Last edited by pinkz; 2023-03-18 at 02:51 AM.

  6. #86
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So you're saying the enhancement/resto/elemental shaman would not be able to use Heroism? Same situation.
    No it's not. A support-based Shaman is still a Shaman, so yes the Shaman class would still have Bloodlust.


    Then there's no point in bringing a support class since the other classes can already do what the support class can, and still do greater DPS.
    Again, support specs, not support classes.

    And no. In this model, you bring the support spec because they make group content go smoother and easier. Non-support specs cannot bring the buffs/debuffs that the support spec could.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    So you want in your example shaman to basically be Vanilla Rogues where all they brought was DPS? Dooming Shaman that if they have a patch where they are lackluster to effectively be shunned to only playing Resto/New Support Spec?

    cause that's what will happen
    This is a straw man. Shaman have two DPS specs. I seriously doubt there will ever be a situation where both DPS specs are unplayable in progression content. Even in actual WoW if that ever occurred a Raid group wouldn't bring a terrible DPS just because of their support abilities, since they could be found elsewhere.

  7. #87
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    No it's not. A support-based Shaman is still a Shaman, so yes the Shaman class would still have Bloodlust.
    But the enhancement, elemental and restoration shamans would not have access to windfury totem, heroism, wind rush totem, tremor totem, etc.

    Which is the whole point. You'd still be stripping those specs of their most iconic abilities and giving it to one singular spec, that would have to be played just so the ground could have access to those buffs/debuffs, instead of bringing the class itself. This is worse than "bring the class, not the player." It's "bring the spec, not just the class".

    Again, support specs, not support classes.
    Read above. Also, what about classes that don't have support specs, like rogues, warriors and demon hunters? What if shamans don't get a support spec? Remember that the only time we ever had any possible inkling of maybe possibly getting a new spec it's for the evoker only.

    And no. In this model, you bring the support spec because they make group content go smoother and easier.
    So instead of brining the class, now it's "bring this very specific spec from that class?"

    Non-support specs cannot bring the buffs/debuffs that the support spec could.
    So, in other words, really shafting those who play enh/resto/ele shamans? (In this specific example)
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    This is a straw man. Shaman have two DPS specs. I seriously doubt there will ever be a situation where both DPS specs are unplayable in progression content.
    Except we take little Billy here
    Billy LOVES enhancement finds Elemental pretty boring and isn't a big fan of healing
    Enhancement has had its up and downs in the past but usually got a spot because they do bring a nice set of buffs to the rest of the raid
    Now lets say patch X.X.X nerfed Ehancement to the ground and this is post "Super Totem Shaman" being a thing. Oh no Billy despite being a lackluster dps now doesn't bring the buffs to the table and if he wants to be in his raid group he either has to play a spec he hates, Heal which he also hates, or play this shitty support spec that he quite honestly isn't fond of either.

    Shaman are the extreme example of this since they are one of only 3 classes that have a melee and a ranged spec. I for one am a person that cannot STAND playing ranged in wow. I find it extremely boring and not the class fantasy I want.

    So you saying "Oh you can just play Elemental" to me says "whelp I guess I wont play this shaman then"

  9. #89
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But the enhancement, elemental and restoration shamans would not have access to windfury totem, heroism, wind rush totem, tremor totem, etc.
    And those would be replaced with abilities more fitting their specialization.

    Which is the whole point. You'd still be stripping those specs of their most iconic abilities and giving it to one singular spec, that would have to be played just so the ground could have access to those buffs/debuffs, instead of bringing the class itself. This is worse than "bring the class, not the player." It's "bring the spec, not just the class".
    Uh, that's the way it works now. You need a tanks, DPS, and Healers to perform group content. You don't worry about a Warrior tank, a monk tank, or a DH tank, you just want a tank.

    Read above. Also, what about classes that don't have support specs, like rogues, warriors and demon hunters? What if shamans don't get a support spec? Remember that the only time we ever had any possible inkling of maybe possibly getting a new spec it's for the evoker only.
    I would give all current "pure" DPS specs a support spec. Rogues, Hunters, Warlocks, and Mages would all get support specs.

    Warriors and DHs are fine since they have a tanking and DPS spec. Shaman would definitely get a support spec.


    So instead of brining the class, now it's "bring this very specific spec from that class?"
    Groups still need tanks, healers, and DPS for group content. You would simply also need support.

    So, in other words, really shafting those who play enh/resto/ele shamans? (In this specific example)
    How would they get the shaft? A DPS Shaman without support abilities can still deal damage, which is their purpose in a group.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    Except we take little Billy here
    Billy LOVES enhancement finds Elemental pretty boring and isn't a big fan of healing
    Enhancement has had its up and downs in the past but usually got a spot because they do bring a nice set of buffs to the rest of the raid
    Now lets say patch X.X.X nerfed Ehancement to the ground and this is post "Super Totem Shaman" being a thing. Oh no Billy despite being a lackluster dps now doesn't bring the buffs to the table and if he wants to be in his raid group he either has to play a spec he hates, Heal which he also hates, or play this shitty support spec that he quite honestly isn't fond of either.
    And that's a problem. A DPS Shaman should be brought to group content because they do competitive damage, not because they offer good buffs.

    Also Billy should play the spec he loves to play, and if his group won't let him, he should find a different group. If he want to stay in that group, then he can just give healing or support a go and suck it up. This is a choice that plenty of players make even in actual WoW sans a support spec.

    Shaman are the extreme example of this since they are one of only 3 classes that have a melee and a ranged spec. I for one am a person that cannot STAND playing ranged in wow. I find it extremely boring and not the class fantasy I want.

    So you saying "Oh you can just play Elemental" to me says "whelp I guess I wont play this shaman then"
    Again, you play what you want to play. Even if your spec of choice is at the bottom of the DPS charts, you should play what you enjoy and only worry about cutting edge performance if you're in a top progression guild trying to get world first. Unless you're rolling with a group of a-holes, you should have no issue playing what you want.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    The new kinds of debuffs idea is interesting...however I kinda only see it working in M+ where clearing trash packs is a huge deal. In raids, bosses are usually immune to all CC and the moment you change that you create a "bring the class not the player" problem; and if you spread debuffs to other classes/specs for raid, the support class/spec becomes too redundant.

    The M+ scene potentially creates opportunities where choosing 2 dps + 1 support for better mob control vs 3 dps for faster timer completion is a meaningful choice. Though, unfortunately, WoW has this thing where the cutting edge elite players/streamers have an immense amount of influence on community perception. If a support spec has no chance to be an optimal choice for some groups, the'll be less popular than Survival Hunters.
    Oh I'm not advocating for support specs, it's just not something this game needs or I'd trust blizz to support, but what I would like to see is each DPS spec getting some support gameplay that results in non DPS gains.

    Ideally blizz would tune it up so it matters and ensure it doesn't conflict with DPS output. Passive damage reduction on enemies could come in many different ways, one is a percent damage reduction and another is flat damage reduction on enemy attacks, like how smite used to work.
    I don't see a problem with multiple specs being able to bring the same utility, my idea was something like affliction dots reducing enemy damage, perhaps unstable affliction reducing their damage by 5% and unstable affliction ticks causing a flat damage reduction per tick. Same concept could apply to sin rogue and perhaps another spec. Make all the 5% debuffs exclusive and the flat damage reduction stack. This way those specs can contribute to damage reduction without healing or tanking and tune it so it's reasonable meaningful.

    Of course my idea would also buff hybrid specs to contribute decent off healing and ideally plate DPS to have told to assist with tanking, so in that scenario the power budget would be pretty high.
    Last edited by bloodmoth13; 2023-03-18 at 07:14 AM.

  11. #91
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And those would be replaced with abilities more fitting their specialization.
    It's irrelevant if they're replaced or not. The point is that they'd be losing abilities, some of those actually quite iconic.

    Uh, that's the way it works now.
    It's not. It's really, really not. I don't need to bring specifically an elemental shaman for Tremor totem. I just need to bring a shaman, spec is irrelevant. I don't need to bring a protection paladin to get Blessing of Protection or Blessing of Freedom. I just need a paladin. I don't need to bring a discipline priest for Power Infusion. I just need a priest. We don't need specific specs to bring in specific buffs and debuffs. That is the point.

    Groups still need tanks, healers, and DPS for group content. You would simply also need support.
    Care to elucidate why is this a good thing in comparison to what we have now? Why should all specs currently in the game be stripped of their support abilities, some of them quite iconic like Bloodlust/Heroism, just so a new spec type be created? What's the advantage? The benefit?
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  12. #92
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's irrelevant if they're replaced or not. The point is that they'd be losing abilities, some of those actually quite iconic.
    I doubt a DPS would be upset to lose a support ability if they're gaining an ability that makes their DPS better.


    It's not. It's really, really not. I don't need to bring specifically an elemental shaman for Tremor totem. I just need to bring a shaman, spec is irrelevant. I don't need to bring a protection paladin to get Blessing of Protection or Blessing of Freedom. I just need a paladin. I don't need to bring a discipline priest for Power Infusion. I just need a priest. We don't need specific specs to bring in specific buffs and debuffs. That is the point.
    Yeah, but you need to bring a Vengeance, Prot Warrior, Prot Paladin, Guardian, Brewmaster for tanking. You'd need a support spec for support. Support would simply be another required role that you need to complete and optimize group content.

    Care to elucidate why is this a good thing in comparison to what we have now? Why should all specs currently in the game be stripped of their support abilities, some of them quite iconic like Bloodlust/Heroism, just so a new spec type be created? What's the advantage? The benefit?
    Again they wouldn't be completely stripped of their support abilities. Major support abilities would be moved to the new support specs and non-support roles would get far weaker support abilities. Again, no different than an Enhancement Shaman having healing abilities, but not nearly enough healing ability to heal a group.

    As for benefits; more complexity, more interesting class options, roles freed up to do what they're designed to do, drawing in players who like support specs, opening up WoW for future classes like Bards.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    It will be a balancing nightmare between the different group sizes. (i don't count solo play. Switch to dps or tank)

    A support spec MUST at least be worth one healer or one DD. I don't think they can take tanks spots.

    Szenario 1: 20 man raid, one sup replaces roughly one dd/heal. This is with buffing 20 people. He goes into a mythic+ and suddenly is useless because he cannot buff enough people to make up for the lost spot.
    Szenario 2: 5 man dungeon, one sup replaces one dd/heal. This is with buffing 5 poeple. He goes into 20 man raid and suddenly is worth 4 players.
    Szenario 3: No matter what content, his abilities are only in his group even in raid. This is the whole PI situation on steroids. No one will be happy in the end.

    I don't think support specs are worth it. And i don't think it will be taken well. Wow playerbase has a high... affinity for numbers. And sup will probably never me measurable. Otherwise it would just be another healer or dd.
    (Not just wow before people jump on that, FF14 is no different. Nearly everyone in every game looks at their damage numbers)

    And in the end i don't think you can make a support class really fun. You will never see your impact. Anywhere. Even if it exists.

    Nice idea or dream but i don't think it is based in reality of gamers.
    Not that I think it would be a great solution, but the buffs could just scale with group size, just like right now you have skills like Tranquility do +100% healing when not in a raid group.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Does anyone think it’s possible that at some point Blizzard would give new specs for existing classes, and those specs would be support-based, like Bards and Dancers from Final Fantasy? Paladins, Monks, Shaman, Rogues, Mages, Hunters, Priests, and other classes could get new support roles.

    More importantly, would those new specialization types be popular enough among the player base to warrant their creation?

    I’m starting to believe that Blizzard might feel that the Trinity is outdated, and they may be looking to shake up the classes in some way. I don’t know how popular support classes are in other games, but people seem to love them, and are a bit bummed that they’re not in WoW.
    More specs = more stacking.

    This is not the game, where you want to have too many specs. The culture is about min/max, dicated by some bot - flexible fantasy traditionally been overshadowed by performance.

    This would just encourge FoTM playstyle, even if each class had 17specs and endless talent system.

    You can't change a culture that's been around for 20years. It also requires more people to handle balancing - and it is already challenging.
    Last edited by HansOlo; 2023-03-18 at 11:37 PM.

  15. #95
    Whenever you have to ask, "Would Blizzard" at the start of your statement just start with no. Does it mean it won't ever happen? Of course not. But when they have to do something usually it just doesn't happen or if it does it ends up a disaster.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimson View Post
    And if they pulled DPS specs away from existing classes and reworked them.... the forums would be lit ablaze.
    Let's be honest - when aren't the forums lit ablaze? People have been complaining about changes to their class since the game shipped.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    Whenever you have to ask, "Would Blizzard" at the start of your statement just start with no. Does it mean it won't ever happen? Of course not. But when they have to do something usually it just doesn't happen or if it does it ends up a disaster.
    Agreed. People should be more loyal.

    You don't create a game that lasts for 18years and beating any competition, based on ideas appeared from thin air.

    The execution might been a failure, but there is some truth in the statement "You THINK you want".

  18. #98
    No. Support specs never have and never will function in World of Warcraft.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  19. #99
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I doubt a DPS would be upset to lose a support ability if they're gaining an ability that makes their DPS better.
    Then you haven't ever met any WoW player in your life.

    Yeah, but you need to bring a Vengeance, Prot Warrior, Prot Paladin, Guardian, Brewmaster for tanking.
    That is nowhere the same thing. Role is one thing, specific buffs and debuffs is a completely different scenario. And again: specs would be losing their abilities, even iconic ones.

    Again they wouldn't be completely stripped of their support abilities. Major support abilities would be moved to the new support specs and non-support roles would get far weaker support abilities.
    So they are losing their abilities.

    As for benefits; more complexity,
    Complexity for complexity's sake is not a good thing. On top of that, I really wonder if you actually play WoW at all. The whole thing about using support abilities is literally to break the whole 'single role' thing. It literally makes the roles more complex because you have more than one job. The DPS don't have to just mindlessly deal damage. They have to pay attention to the interrupt rotation, they have to be attentive to crowd-control an add that spawned. Etc.

    more interesting class options,
    No new class would be introduced.

    roles freed up to do what they're designed to do,
    Which goes directly against your claim of "increased complexity"...

    drawing in players who like support specs,
    Play healers. Those are the most support-ish of all the roles.

    opening up WoW for future classes like Bards.
    For the millionth time, bards don't need to be support classes.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  20. #100
    No. RIFT had actual Support specs, and you know what they were? Glorified cheerleaders. They did mediocre DPS and mediocre healing, and were mostly just focused on buffs and debuffs. Nobody really liked playing them, they were mostly just seen as a "requirement" for raids to have one of them for the buffs/debuffs.

    Nobody wants to be a glorified cheerleader that is just there to provide buffs/debuffs. Everyone wants to contribute DPS/HPS or some other actually tangible benefit to the raid. Buffs/debuffs don't show up on meters and are much harder to quantify. Which is bad for our monkey brains.

    A WoW equivalent would be early-vanilla Paladins: You were mostly just there to put 5 minute buffs on your raid and throw out some weak heals. That's not very fun or interesting.
    Last edited by anon5123; 2023-03-19 at 02:59 AM.

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