Suggestion for the Politics section

[Fugus]

@MoanaLisa

They wouldn’t be sanctioned for a belief for it being counter factual, they would be sanctioned for representing that belief as if it was factual in a forum that is meant for debate and informing others.

And if you are in the politics section, you will see plenty who are blatantly posting for reactions and in bad faith. They will literally claim they read something and then claim it said the opposite of what it actually said or will take an individual sentence or phrase and strip it of all context, then layer some fiction around it to say something it doesn’t and couldn’t say.

You will have people pushing some far out crap but then ignore any requests for evidence on it or will post some fringe site and ignore any fact checks on it and will repeatedly post debunked stuff even after it has been debunked multiple times directly to that specific person in the past.

They aren’t trying to inform as they never or rarely post something of informational value unless it is some anecdote that helps them or part of one where we have had some post links that completely destroy their own claims but they post it anyways with a singular section that says what they want so long as that section was the only thing you read.

Trust me on this part, in the politics section, many of the trolls have dropped all attempts to hide what they are doing because the moderators claim they are powerless to even attempt to do anything about it unless they openly confess to trolling at which point they might get an infraction but still be allowed to do it all over again after their suspension is up assuming they have enough points for a suspension in the first place.

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I’m not here to inform anyone

You are making that apparent here.

but it’s not up to you to decide what people talk about if they haven’t broken the rules. You are no authority here

Which is exactly why I am asking the moderators have that authority because evidently no one does on here which is causing issues and abuses.

especially and you don’t get to decide what is fact or truth.

Correct, the facts and the truth decide that. Opinions don’t. And many facts are objectively proven unless you can show evidence to the contrary.

This tar and feather nonsense based on your opinion of who should stay and who should go is not position.

Who said this I had that power or even want it personally? I want people who objectively and knowingly lie and posted misinformation be held accountable for it. They don’t want to be infracted, then be honest and don’t attempt to lie and spread lies.

This is an entertainment forum which occasionally includes conversations about a lot of issues.

Which means they are allowed to intentionally lie about it because the facts don’t agree with their feelings? Sorry but no, if I can’t have a debate and be honest, I just don’t have that debate, this isn’t a place where they HAVE to engage, they can choose to stay out of the debates, but if they want to interact they should be required to at least attempt to be honest and not lie about facts.

That is my reason for being here. Not because I need something not because I rely on it as anything other than an outlet for fun and to be social that’s it.

You are here to lie to others and spread misinformation and/or troll others for reactions?

This is not the place to contemplate deep political issues or spiritual ones.

If the section is literally dedicated to those topics, it’s meant to discuss and debate them. Not lie about them for reactions and my own entertainment at the cost of the entire thread I am posting in.

As for moderation that’s not my job either.

Agreed but you have shown you wouldn’t be up for the task either in this one. I know I couldn’t do it either.

But that doesn’t mean the actual moderation should be banned from addressing the issues and moderating bad actors.

I recognize your opinion and perspective but just as I’m not always righteous about everything and everyone you and none else are either.

You don’t get to decide is someone is sincere or not based on bade beliefs or disagreeable thinking.

Not just disagreeable thinking, it’s flat out lying repeatedly after being proven something is a lie.

If it was a difference of opinions that would be fine with no issue, there is no such thing as a difference of facts which is what they are arguing even when they are objectively wrong and know it.

As long as people are being civil and not breaking the rules. I can’t see any grounds for removing people based on consensus here or popular belief.

Being civil as a killer doesn’t make you less of a killer. Being civil as a rapist doesn’t make you less of a rapist. Being civil as you knowingly lie through your teeth fishing for reactions doesn’t make you less of a liar or a troll.

I do agree with you about misinformation. But I think the way to deal with that is to counter views with constructive feedback.

The section currently runs like that and has the moderation getting onto people for derailing threads after 3 - 20 pages when that derailing is the users dealing with misinformation because the moderation says they aren’t allowed to and the ones spreading it are doing so knowingly because they like fishing for responses or annoying people with views they don’t like.

This suggestion is literally about giving the moderators the authority to actually address the issue and those behind it instead of having no power at all where it matters in that section.

The ONLY moderator who seemed to have any power there was Thwart who intentionally abused it to NOT do his job, let the trolls run rampant so long as they praised who he wanted and would ban and infract those who responded or corrected them. Yet the other moderators seem powerless to actually go after problem actors with that same power he had.

[Doctor Amadeus]

@MoanaLisa

They wouldn’t be sanctioned for a belief for it being counter factual, they would be sanctioned for representing that belief as if it was factual in a forum that is meant for debate and informing others.

And if you are in the politics section, you will see plenty who are blatantly posting for reactions and in bad faith. They will literally claim they read something and then claim it said the opposite of what it actually said or will take an individual sentence or phrase and strip it of all context, then layer some fiction around it to say something it doesn’t and couldn’t say.

You will have people pushing some far out crap but then ignore any requests for evidence on it or will post some fringe site and ignore any fact checks on it and will repeatedly post debunked stuff even after it has been debunked multiple times directly to that specific person in the past.

They aren’t trying to inform as they never or rarely post something of informational value unless it is some anecdote that helps them or part of one where we have had some post links that completely destroy their own claims but they post it anyways with a singular section that says what they want so long as that section was the only thing you read.

Trust me on this part, in the politics section, many of the trolls have dropped all attempts to hide what they are doing because the moderators claim they are powerless to even attempt to do anything about it unless they openly confess to trolling at which point they might get an infraction but still be allowed to do it all over again after their suspension is up assuming they have enough points for a suspension in the first place.

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You are making that apparent here.


Which is exactly why I am asking the moderators have that authority because evidently no one does on here which is causing issues and abuses.


Correct, the facts and the truth decide that. Opinions don’t. And many facts are objectively proven unless you can show evidence to the contrary.



Who said this I had that power or even want it personally? I want people who objectively and knowingly lie and posted misinformation be held accountable for it. They don’t want to be infracted, then be honest and don’t attempt to lie and spread lies.

Which means they are allowed to intentionally lie about it because the facts don’t agree with their feelings? Sorry but no, if I can’t have a debate and be honest, I just don’t have that debate, this isn’t a place where they HAVE to engage, they can choose to stay out of the debates, but if they want to interact they should be required to at least attempt to be honest and not lie about facts.


You are here to lie to others and spread misinformation and/or troll others for reactions?

If the section is literally dedicated to those topics, it’s meant to discuss and debate them. Not lie about them for reactions and my own entertainment at the cost of the entire thread I am posting in.

Agreed but you have shown you wouldn’t be up for the task either in this one. I know I couldn’t do it either.

But that doesn’t mean the actual moderation should be banned from addressing the issues and moderating bad actors.

Not just disagreeable thinking, it’s flat out lying repeatedly after being proven something is a lie.

If it was a difference of opinions that would be fine with no issue, there is no such thing as a difference of facts which is what they are arguing even when they are objectively wrong and know it.



Being civil as a killer doesn’t make you less of a killer. Being civil as a rapist doesn’t make you less of a rapist. Being civil as you knowingly lie through your teeth fishing for reactions doesn’t make you less of a liar or a troll.



The section currently runs like that and has the moderation getting onto people for derailing threads after 3 - 20 pages when that derailing is the users dealing with misinformation because the moderation says they aren’t allowed to and the ones spreading it are doing so knowingly because they like fishing for responses or annoying people with views they don’t like.

This suggestion is literally about giving the moderators the authority to actually address the issue and those behind it instead of having no power at all where it matters in that section.

The ONLY moderator who seemed to have any power there was Thwart who intentionally abused it to NOT do his job, let the trolls run rampant so long as they praised who he wanted and would ban and infract those who responded or corrected them. Yet the other moderators seem powerless to actually go after problem actors with that same power he had.

No. But nobody here is committing rape. It doesn’t matter if people lie here or even what they lie about.

We aren’t here for this nor to settle policy or anything else.

As for the accusations. Nobody here is forcing anyone to engage bad actors. My point is if people are following the rules.

Then that is all that is needed from anybody.


I don’t think we can act like we know intentions or agree on whatever facts people consider.



I do agree with you as I said I f someone is making claims that others feel should be answered so be it. Challenge them. But nobody here is owed anyone else to validate their opinion or beliefs.

But no not all opinions are equal and I know damn well which ones I’ll entertain and which I’ll ignore.

Nobody needs to be punished off for my decisions.

The only exceptions I would say is if some is generally doing harm like giving medical advice or legal.


When I said I’m not here because I need anything like debate. Because I’m here to have fun. What I mean is I genuinely just enjoy the dialogue.

If someone here says they had an affair with Bigfoot I’m more curious than I a worried. I don’t care if they’re lying or not and I don’t know why even though I can suspect.

[Gabriel]

So if someone doesn’t agree with certain groups set of evidence as fact. Let’s label them to get them infracted.

And of course if we really don’t like them. Instead of being adults or ignoring it. Let’s try to insult and attack until we can derail threads or misconstrue people we disagree with as making death threats or anything else.

Sounds like a concert of bad actors rather than just bad faith arguments.

I’d rather people learn no means no. And just because you have an argument doesn’t entitle you to a response the way you want. It’s an entertainment forum nit congress or an academic school.

If it’s Off Topic politics show me any arena of ideas where politics or issues exist where everyone agrees even on the same set of facts.

If following the rules in and of itself is not enough because people make personal choices and are angry when others don’t agree or share the same perspectives. Then that’s an individual personal issue IMO.

The issue is that calling trolls trolls is more infractable offence than actually trolling.

If we can't call out obvious trolls, it legitimizes their trolling.

[loras]

Politics in general is a contentious subject, no matter what the sensitive issue, you will wide range of views that aren't always going to agree. Someone stating what they think or believe and being asked about it even if in the minority at times, isn't specifically evidence of them posting in bad faith is.


Posting with things like personal insults, and comments on someone else's comments, or to simply spam a same or similar messages would be posting in bad faith. But even that is subjective. Nobody has to respond to another person post, they might want to but choosing to engage another person shouldn't be a problem provided it doesn't lead to breaking the rules. Which seem very clear.

Asking for certain people to make subjective decisions on other peoples comments and content, while complaining about someone you feel did the exact same thing, seems to kind of be all of the same thing.

We already in addition to Politics have a wide range of topics we not only can't discuss, but people who for one or another reason aren't even here anymore. Participation and people officially online seem to be at an ALL time low.

And there are certainly some who post a lot more than others. I don't think the problem is with a lot of people posting just in bad faith. I think the biggest problem are applying the rules unevenly, if there is any confusion that the rules exist at all for some.

If posting in bad faith should be something subjective just decided with no evidence other than unpopular opinion, then insults and and blatant personal attacks should be as well.

Find me anywhere online where politics or even gaming is discussed and people don't disagree even vigorously. Why is the I don't like what someone has to say, even thought they follow the rules be sought to be more punished?

This one, with the addition that the bolded part should be reversed imo; you're almost never going to find people that truly fully agree.

As a side: Stuff that is common to discuss outside of the anglosphere is already heavily censored here, i mean the very fact that some people think the "n-word" is a thing not discussable (and that's putting it mildly) is already absurd pandering to certain inclinations.
Going further down that path makes political discussion increasingly pointless, if apparantly less aggravating for those who are slaves to their emotions.

Simply put: It doesn't need to be absolute freedom of discussion versus no discussion for fear of offending, but the present inclinations already edge quite so close to the no discussion side of things that it might be better to just close up shop on the politics section if that gets any worse.

[Doctor Amadeus]

The issue is that calling trolls trolls is more infractable offence than actually trolling.

If we can't call out obvious trolls, it legitimizes their trolling.

Because the problem is as we just been shown in this case is that people like to labels based in intitutions, and feelings that someone is speaking in bad faith because they might believe the earth is flat, regardless to how stupid. Calling it out, it's called a the report a post button.

Why is that not enough, oh because of whatever random individual responding might not agree.

There is a huge difference between someone simply saying something you don't like and in a way you don't like, and someone being accused of the shit a handful people agree on and they don't need scripts, links, or proof of that in their view, just disagreement.

And someone being frustrating doesn't then mean engaging them in "Bad Faith" either until they say something misconstrued as a death threat.


I've been here long enough and had enough experience to where there are a shit ton of people I don't fucking like or even hate. It's my choice to engage with them or not.

But what I am not going to do, is threaten them, pretend I know them personally on a deep level or try to fuck up everyone else's time here. So in that I will correct myself.

I don't take myself nearly as seriously as some claim I do, or suggest me or others are Mad, Sad, Happy whatever. I mean I am offended by everything on most days, that doesn't mean anybody is obligated to do anything about it

As for the site, this to me is a private business and enterprise for legitimate commercial use as a entertainment forum. Or more specifically a World of Warcraft complimentary site.


I originally came here, because I loved wow, use to roll a DeathKnight and Pally on a advanced guild, between using Curse for Add ons, I would look up tips and conversations about the game.

I don't play now anymore as of the last few years, I would love to come back, but I hate the direction Blizzard has gone, but unlike some I don't feel the need to say that over and over an nitpick. Off Topics is just a part of that Off Topics used to be a lot more entertaining and FUN.

[MoanaLisa]

The issue is that calling trolls trolls is more infractable offence than actually trolling.

If we can't call out obvious trolls, it legitimizes their trolling.

While I agree that's somewhat upside-down the way to call out trolls is to report them, not feed them. "Calling them out" doesn't solve anything, it derails topics. If it did anything useful that might be an arguable point but it doesn't. You might not get the answer you want from reporting but ignoring trolls is far better than fighting with them.

[Fugus]

No. But nobody here is committing rape. It doesn’t matter if people lie here or even what they lie about.

You're missing the point, the point was them being civil while doing it wouldn't change the reduce the severity of what they did. Same as someone knowingly lying through their teeth here to get reactions and messing with others ability to use the thread as intended for their own entertainment.

We aren’t here for this nor to settle policy or anything else.

The purpose of most forums is to either inform, debate, or discuss. The purpose of a political section in a forum is to debate, inform or discuss political topics. Trolling and intentionally lying is neither informing, debating, or discussing the topic and is quite literally abusing a forum for something other than its intended purpose for pretty much all of them unless they have a section set aside specifically for messing with people.

Now, if they made a section of the forums and labeled it "Trolling and intentional lying for reactions" then THAT section would be intended for what they were doing. The politics section isn't the right place, now is the classic server section, the class section or any other section of this forum.

As for the accusations. Nobody here is forcing anyone to engage bad actors. My point is if people are following the rules.

And I am in the Suggestion sections suggesting they CHANGE the rules to address those bad actors so the bad actors can either stop acting like that or get dealt with quickly instead of letting them go for months or years until they get bored because they have no accountability and can typically get at least 2 to 3 people banned with them because calling them out for trolling is against the rules but actual trolling is 100% in bounds so long as you stay in character and don't admit you are.

I don’t think we can act like we know intentions or agree on whatever facts people consider.

Actually, when they do the same things over and over again and form a pattern of activity.

If they spend their time lying about facts while ignoring any facts that go against their narrative and also refusing to show anything that matches their own views from any reliable sources, its pretty easy to identify them if that's really all they do.

I do agree with you as I said I f someone is making claims that others feel should be answered so be it. Challenge them. But nobody here is owed anyone else to validate their opinion or beliefs.

No body is owed anyone else to validate their views but if they take the time to post them in an section where they are meant to be discussed, debated, and talked about, then he better be prepared to do that.

But none of that has any relevancy to this as they aren't doing that. They are posting information that they know is false and are intentionally lying and ignoring facts.

But no not all opinions are equal and I know damn well which ones I’ll entertain and which I’ll ignore.

The fact we can have 1 troll intentionally crap all over a thread for 20+ pages on a regular basis is proof that many on here CAN'T ignore it. The fact that the moderation will repeatedly get onto people for derailing the threads is proof that it is an issue. But the fact the moderation says they aren't allowed to do anything about it is also proof that the moderation needs more authority because, as it stands, they have no power where they need it.

The only one who seemed to have the authority they needed was also the singular moderator who shouldn't have ever had it to begin with and never allowed into that job, Thwarts activist behind. How he was the ONLY one to have the authority and no other moderator is beyond crazy.

Nobody needs to be punished off for my decisions.

And they wouldn't be, they would be punished off their own. They were the ones who knowingly lied even when proven wrong, they were the ones who pushed false information knowingly, they were the ones who refused to show any evidence that supports their position while refusing any evidence that counters it, that would be entirely on them.

The only exceptions I would say is if some is generally doing harm like giving medical advice or legal.

That would already be against the rules because the section isn't about medical advice. But them giving bad advice would still be on par with what they are doing.

When I said I’m not here because I need anything like debate. Because I’m here to have fun. What I mean is I genuinely just enjoy the dialogue.

If someone here says they had an affair with Bigfoot I’m more curious than I a worried. I don’t care if they’re lying or not and I don’t know why even though I can suspect.

If you are in the politics section to debate, discuss, or inform. Then have at it, there is zero problem with that.

If you are in the politics section to lie to others, spread misinformation, and antagonize people till they get infracted dealing with you, then you aren't in the right place and shouldn't be allowed.

You are quite literally favoring letting 1 individual going against the entire purpose of a section for their own benefit at the cost of everyone in the thing.

If I went into the druid section of the forums and started making threads about how druids are broken listing stuff that has no place in how it actually works in WoW talking about how druids should be nerfed because they have the ability to turn into illidan himself and how there is a secret quest to turn them into the druid of the fang and making sure not to ever break character while calling it real while others push back and even get infracted for calling me out for lying and then keep that going for 3+ years in multiple threads in that section and making sure to bust into random other threads in it derailing it with that crap. The moderators should have the authority to deal with it.

Especially after I had derailed over half the threads on the first page with it. And just using the excuse that "The people could have ignored all my claims" doesn't really hold water when I spew them on every active thread in the section derailing them all.

Edit: Typed this up about 9 hours ago only for a bolt of lightning to take out the internet for the entire road I am on just as I finished till sometime in the past 15 minutes, lol.

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While I agree that's somewhat upside-down the way to call out trolls is to report them, not feed them. "Calling them out" doesn't solve anything, it derails topics. If it did anything useful that might be an arguable point but it doesn't. You might not get the answer you want from reporting but ignoring trolls is far better than fighting with them.

Reporting trolls does nothing because the moderators claim they aren't allowed to do anything about it because they aren't admitting they are trolls and them lying through their teeth isn't something they are allowed to moderate because they leave that to the other users which ends up with what we currently have.

-You can't report trolls. It doesn't work.
-You can't call out trolls, it gets you in trouble.
-You can't get everyone to ignore them because they would rather be factually correct then do what the right thing in that situation and just let their posts fall off ignored and not responded to so they have a steady stream of people who will always feed them.

So, either the moderators get the authority to deal with them, or the threads continue to get derailed by them and all the problems their trolling causes.

[Doctor Amadeus]

You're missing the point, the point was them being civil while doing it wouldn't change the reduce the severity of what they did. Same as someone knowingly lying through their teeth here to get reactions and messing with others ability to use the thread as intended for their own entertainment.


The purpose of most forums is to either inform, debate, or discuss. The purpose of a political section in a forum is to debate, inform or discuss political topics. Trolling and intentionally lying is neither informing, debating, or discussing the topic and is quite literally abusing a forum for something other than its intended purpose for pretty much all of them unless they have a section set aside specifically for messing with people.

Now, if they made a section of the forums and labeled it "Trolling and intentional lying for reactions" then THAT section would be intended for what they were doing. The politics section isn't the right place, now is the classic server section, the class section or any other section of this forum.


And I am in the Suggestion sections suggesting they CHANGE the rules to address those bad actors so the bad actors can either stop acting like that or get dealt with quickly instead of letting them go for months or years until they get bored because they have no accountability and can typically get at least 2 to 3 people banned with them because calling them out for trolling is against the rules but actual trolling is 100% in bounds so long as you stay in character and don't admit you are.

Actually, when they do the same things over and over again and form a pattern of activity.

If they spend their time lying about facts while ignoring any facts that go against their narrative and also refusing to show anything that matches their own views from any reliable sources, its pretty easy to identify them if that's really all they do.



No body is owed anyone else to validate their views but if they take the time to post them in an section where they are meant to be discussed, debated, and talked about, then he better be prepared to do that.

But none of that has any relevancy to this as they aren't doing that. They are posting information that they know is false and are intentionally lying and ignoring facts.

The fact we can have 1 troll intentionally crap all over a thread for 20+ pages on a regular basis is proof that many on here CAN'T ignore it. The fact that the moderation will repeatedly get onto people for derailing the threads is proof that it is an issue. But the fact the moderation says they aren't allowed to do anything about it is also proof that the moderation needs more authority because, as it stands, they have no power where they need it.

The only one who seemed to have the authority they needed was also the singular moderator who shouldn't have ever had it to begin with and never allowed into that job, Thwarts activist behind. How he was the ONLY one to have the authority and no other moderator is beyond crazy.

And they wouldn't be, they would be punished off their own. They were the ones who knowingly lied even when proven wrong, they were the ones who pushed false information knowingly, they were the ones who refused to show any evidence that supports their position while refusing any evidence that counters it, that would be entirely on them.

That would already be against the rules because the section isn't about medical advice. But them giving bad advice would still be on par with what they are doing.



If you are in the politics section to debate, discuss, or inform. Then have at it, there is zero problem with that.

If you are in the politics section to lie to others, spread misinformation, and antagonize people till they get infracted dealing with you, then you aren't in the right place and shouldn't be allowed.

You are quite literally favoring letting 1 individual going against the entire purpose of a section for their own benefit at the cost of everyone in the thing.

If I went into the druid section of the forums and started making threads about how druids are broken listing stuff that has no place in how it actually works in WoW talking about how druids should be nerfed because they have the ability to turn into illidan himself and how there is a secret quest to turn them into the druid of the fang and making sure not to ever break character while calling it real while others push back and even get infracted for calling me out for lying and then keep that going for 3+ years in multiple threads in that section and making sure to bust into random other threads in it derailing it with that crap. The moderators should have the authority to deal with it.

Especially after I had derailed over half the threads on the first page with it. And just using the excuse that "The people could have ignored all my claims" doesn't really hold water when I spew them on every active thread in the section derailing them all.

Edit: Typed this up about 9 hours ago only for a bolt of lightning to take out the internet for the entire road I am on just as I finished till sometime in the past 15 minutes, lol.

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Reporting trolls does nothing because the moderators claim they aren't allowed to do anything about it because they aren't admitting they are trolls and them lying through their teeth isn't something they are allowed to moderate because they leave that to the other users which ends up with what we currently have.

-You can't report trolls. It doesn't work.
-You can't call out trolls, it gets you in trouble.
-You can't get everyone to ignore them because they would rather be factually correct then do what the right thing in that situation and just let their posts fall off ignored and not responded to so they have a steady stream of people who will always feed them.

So, either the moderators get the authority to deal with them, or the threads continue to get derailed by them and all the problems their trolling causes.

People ought to be able to post as long as it doesn’t cross the line into specific hate speech, personal attacks or death threats or threats of any kind.

If I don’t like someone’s argument and I’m offended and it hurts my feelings I won’t engage with them. Nothing more ought to be expected of anyone.

This is not serious site for debate. Nobody should be coming here to get an education from anyone. We are all effectively perfect strangers.


I don’t disagree with you totally. I think it’s admirable what you’re suggesting to a degree. I just think the rules enforced equally are good enough.

[Fugus]

People ought to be able to post as long as it doesn’t cross the line into specific hate speech, personal attacks or death threats or threats of any kind.

If the section of the forum is meant just to shoot the breeze and joke, you would have be correct, except for trolling.
If the section of the forum is meant to debate, discuss, and inform, you would be wrong. The politics section is firmly THIS.

There isn't a single section of this forum meant for trolling. It is even against the rules to troll except their rules are so broad you can troll your ass off with impunity so long as you don't admit you are doing it.

There isn't a single section of any thread where the purpose is to intentionally lie to the rest, there is no enforcement mechanism against those who do which this thread is quite literally about giving moderation the authority to enforce the rules about lying and trolling to others.

If I don’t like someone’s argument and I’m offended and it hurts my feelings I won’t engage with them. Nothing more ought to be expected of anyone.

Congrats, unfortunately many have proven they aren't capable of that and all it takes is 1 of them who can't help but respond to give the trolls food to keep lying and derailing the threads further.

This is not serious site for debate. Nobody should be coming here to get an education from anyone. We are all effectively perfect strangers.

It might not be a place for serious debate, but it is a place for debate. That's like saying that just because Chess.net isn't a place for serious chess games that gives anyone the right to cheat in any game they want while they heckle the other players bragging like Muhammad Ali the entire time before and after every match.

I don’t disagree with you totally. I think it’s admirable what you’re suggesting to a degree. I just think the rules enforced equally are good enough.

Let me ask you this.

Why do you think it should be perfectly fine for users to knowingly and intentionally lie through their teeth in a section meant specifically for debating, informing and discussing a topic?

Why do you think it should be perfectly fine for users to spread misinformation to the users in the section repeatedly for months and, for some, years on end making it where I have had some threads where it is literally HUNDREDS of pages of it that is nothing but them spouting lies while others keep correcting them.

Why do you support that? And you claim you don't support that, then why do you not support an enforcement mechanism to prevent that and specifically that?

If someone where to repeat something they thought was correct but be proven wrong with factual evidence to back it up, that would be 100% fine under that system and not against the rules.

If someone were to repeat something that was incorrect only to reject facts and evidence that disprove it while presenting nothing of their own that can support it al while hailing it as facts, THAT would get them in trouble. And that is what you are protecting here.

That is the rules enforced equally, and you are fighting against that.

The rules currently are such that a troll can go with impunity for literal years and get away with it so long as he doesn't outright admit it while anyone who calls them out for it risks infraction which is the exact opposite of equal enforcement.

You personally are arguing for unequal enforcement of the rules while claiming it is equal. You are arguing that people can do as much underhanded and deceitful stuff as they want so long as they do it with a civil demeanor while making an offense to actually call them out for their actions.

[Doctor Amadeus]

If the section of the forum is meant just to shoot the breeze and joke, you would have be correct, except for trolling.
If the section of the forum is meant to debate, discuss, and inform, you would be wrong. The politics section is firmly THIS.

That part in bold underlined right there, that is all I see these forums as. Entertainment meaning talking about games or particular games, giving opinions on likes and dislikes and over all having fun.


I am not sure where you have gotten this anywhere including the Politics forum being for debate, as though everyone who participates has to have something to prove.

As for the rules of the forums the only thing that comes close is .

* Important: While constructive criticism of political leaders/policies/parties in discussion is fine when expressed in a reasonable fashion and/or is supported, national or partisan bashing is not allowed.

I do not read that as when you come to Political sub forum you have to debate, DISCUSSIN CAN include debate, but there are no rules regarding this.

Politics Forum Rules

Both the general site rules and the GenOT rules apply here.[INDENT][B] [U]

Forbidden Topics
...keep in mind the post contents/subjects that are not allowed:
Posts that contribute nothing ("what does this have to do with WoW" etc)
Meme replies (LOL, TL;DR, OVER 9000, /thread etc)
Image macros and image memes
"Do my homework for me" threads. (Asking for a push in the right direction is ok.)
Religion
Race/Ethnicity
Nationalism and nation bashing
Medical Advice
Abortion
Circumcision/FGM
Conspiracies
Sexually-explicit/Nudity
Sexuality, Gender, Gender identity
Dating/Romance/Relationships
Graphic violence or gore images/videos
Content that is dangerous or considered illegal

Now if what you're saying is that YOU think any individual in addition to this should based on their own personal judgement relying on TEXT and the interpretations of everyone including and especially those that may disagree with a post, should be permanently removed. NO, I don't agree with that.

There can be a lot of reasons people agree or disagree on something, and the way some communicate themselves, or the way some might come across in terms of attitude or anything else.

Nobody here can know that, real life people come here, from all backgrounds, and I say as long as they follow the rules equally they should be fine.

Some people might not be as literate as others, some might have an abrasive style, or make a mistake in error, that doesn't make them guilty of anything. I'm speaking purely hypothetically here.

Keep in mind I agree with what your saying in spirit and even at the level of the Supreme Court they don't ban anyone's argument, they simply wont hear it. These forums shouldn't be treated more seriously than that.

Especially in politics. If the Supreme Court can't even agree on established law like the constitution, how the hell would anywhere expect to do any better.

I mean personally if it was up to me, I would make anyone who starts a thread get the ability to simply delete post, that have nothing to do with the thread, or cause for it to be derailed. Especially since threads get derailed and people get held responsible for that. Maybe then the OP can make it clear this is a debate.

There isn't a single section of this forum meant for trolling. It is even against the rules to troll except their rules are so broad you can troll your ass off with impunity so long as you don't admit you are doing it.

That's because IMO some get a pass while others don't it's selectively enforced, not based on political ideology alone. But that is as far as I want to go with that, I am not going to get into discussing moderation. But that is another reason I don't support what your saying as I have understood it.

There isn't a single section of any thread where the purpose is to intentionally lie to the rest, there is no enforcement mechanism against those who do which this thread is quite literally about giving moderation the authority to enforce the rules about lying and trolling to others.

Just because someone is wrong doesn't mean they are lying, just because someone refuses to accept your evidence also doesn't mean they are lying either, nor dos anyone know what anybody here would be lying about or why.

Hell people simply unable to understand nuance and communicate effectively in text can lead to that misunderstanding. Not to mention hyperbole or sarcasm.

Congrats, unfortunately many have proven they aren't capable of that and all it takes is 1 of them who can't help but respond to give the trolls food to keep lying and derailing the threads further.

It doesn't matter if someone is lying or not, I do agree someone can be posting in bad faith though, and derailing is a primary example of this, but that mostly happens when people decide what others opinions are or ought to be rather than just accepting that maybe someone actually believes Big Foot plans to take over the world with Maple Syrup. I would think that is what report an issue button is designed for.

It might not be a place for serious debate, but it is a place for debate. That's like saying that just because Chess.net isn't a place for serious chess games that gives anyone the right to cheat in any game they want while they heckle the other players bragging like Muhammad Ali the entire time before and after every match.

It doesn't give anyone acting in bad faith any right either. But rather than focus on name calling and value judgements, a person content alone should be subject to the rules already in place

Let me ask you this.

Why do you think it should be perfectly fine for users to knowingly and intentionally lie through their teeth in a section meant specifically for debating, informing and discussing a topic?

No, I don't But I don't think we get to control that, and I am not sure that is at all the intent of an entertainment site like MMO Champion. I don't disagree with you on this at all.

Hell if YOU specifically started a thread with the right or not if you or anyone said "Hey this is a serious debate and here is what I would like to see and not" I don't have to, but I would respect that post guidelines.

Why do you think it should be perfectly fine for users to spread misinformation to the users in the section repeatedly for months and, for some, years on end making it where I have had some threads where it is literally HUNDREDS of pages of it that is nothing but them spouting lies while others keep correcting them.

I don't I might even vote for you I agree with what your saying in general and more specifically when it come to important issues. On a gaming forum, not so much. People are wrong on the internet, sometimes you have to pick your battles and sometimes you have to decide if this person is really worth it in terms of entertainment, or actually informing them of information they want to know.

Because otherwise, Maybe they don't really want to know maybe as smart as anyone is they can't teach, in any event, as long as what they are saying isn't causing harm and IT COULD be so in that I agree.

But offending someone, being annoying or being disagreeable, isn't something I feel causes harm.

Why do you support that? And you claim you don't support that, then why do you not support an enforcement mechanism to prevent that and specifically that?

Because the framework seems off. If that becomes part of posting here, I'll follow it, Maybe you're right, maybe I am wrong, but I don't think something as subjective as whether someone is lying is going to be equally or fairly moderated.

It's basically going to come down to arguments one agrees with or doesn't.

If someone where to repeat something they thought was correct but be proven wrong with factual evidence to back it up, that would be 100% fine under that system and not against the rules.

Again in the real world public political Arena I agree, on here not so much. I don't trust The New York Post, I wouldn't want to be infracted because I didn't accept the take from them or the CDC, or Anywhere else.

I mean I trust the CDC, but not everything linked or posted says what the person linking says it does, Nor does everyone reading it agree with every finding. Maybe because they have to simply think about it.

If someone were to repeat something that was incorrect only to reject facts and evidence that disprove it while presenting nothing of their own that can support it al while hailing it as facts, THAT would get them in trouble. And that is what you are protecting here.

Unless they engage me directly I'll ignore them by not responding, if they do then I might respond, if I think they are simply dealing in bad faith, I used to respond out of amusement (But I don't anymore out of fear of derailing a thread), or don't engage.

That is the rules enforced equally, and you are fighting against that.

I already support this, I don't feel I do this NOW, but since some people feel this way, whether I support it or not I abide. The best way I can see of doing so is simply don't engage with those I disagree with, and refrain from posting in Politics or any other serious topic. That's what I am already going to do FOR MYSELF.

But hey if you get that supported as an official position whether I agree or not. I hope it helps

The rules currently are such that a troll can go with impunity for literal years and get away with it so long as he doesn't outright admit it while anyone who calls them out for it risks infraction which is the exact opposite of equal enforcement.

I don't agree with that, I mean I know I have and still do disagree with you, but I wouldn't want you removed, sometimes you have good ideas and fresh perspectives I never considered, or if I had, I see in a different way. That was never my intention to be convinced, but if it happens it happens.

You personally are arguing for unequal enforcement of the rules while claiming it is equal. You are arguing that people can do as much underhanded and deceitful stuff as they want so long as they do it with a civil demeanor while making an offense to actually call them out for their actions.

Probably, I mean I am not pretending I don't have an ideological bias or otherwise. As far as you calling people out, I personally don't have a problem with that. I am just saying that because I might trust you if you got what you wanted, doesn't mean I would trust everyone with something as subjective as some of the points you made.

[Gabriel]

Because the problem is as we just been shown in this case is that people like to labels based in intitutions, and feelings that someone is speaking in bad faith because they might believe the earth is flat, regardless to how stupid. Calling it out, it's called a the report a post button.

Because the rule that we can't call trolls trolls is retarded, and frankly, the response time to reporting posts is shit.

- - - Updated - - -

While I agree that's somewhat upside-down the way to call out trolls is to report them, not feed them. "Calling them out" doesn't solve anything, it derails topics. If it did anything useful that might be an arguable point but it doesn't. You might not get the answer you want from reporting but ignoring trolls is far better than fighting with them.

What derails topics is five posters typing out thousand words posts to debunk one obvious troll that doesn't respond to logic.

Not feeding trolls doesn't work. What works, is publicly shaming them.

[Mysterymask]

Because the rule that we can't call trolls trolls is retarded, and frankly, the response time to reporting posts is shit.

- - - Updated - - -



What derails topics is five posters typing out thousand words posts to debunk one obvious troll that doesn't respond to logic.

Not feeding trolls doesn't work. What works, is publicly shaming them.

you drastically underestimate the amount of trolls on here with a shame kink....

[Gabriel]

you drastically underestimate the amount of trolls on here with a shame kink....

I don't kink shame.

[Nymrohd]

See maybe you cannot call trolls for what they are. But you should still be able to call flaming for what it is. And while I am not sure how much of what we see is trolling (though some people are truly dedicated), a lot of it IS flaming. Problem is, flaming probably would affect plenty of posters on both sides of any debate.

[Fugus]

@Doctor Amadeus

Not quoting block for block for this one because it isn't really needed.

You claim that the forums aren't meant to discuss, inform or debate but strictly to entertain. The forum is quite literally divided into subsections based on the topics involved and even has a section for stuff that isn't meant to discuss, debate or inform and strictly to entertain called "Fun Stuff". If you aren't trying to debate, inform, or discuss anything, then you need to stick to the Fun Stuff section as that is meant specifically for that purpose.

You can disagree with that if you want but that still doesn't change the fact the layout of the forums indicts its purpose and even putting this argument aside doesn't change the overall intent of this suggestion. Because what they are doing is also against the rules you posted.

"Posts that contribute nothing ("what does this have to do with WoW" etc)": Posts that are intentional lying and disinformation are posts that contribute less than nothing and actually diminish the thread as a whole. So they are breaking that rules right there.

"Conspiracies": When the person is posting something that is devoid of any basis in science, history, or (In the case of politics) law while presenting nothing to support it and ignoring all evidence that debunks it while repeatedly presenting it as fact, they are quite literally posting conspiracies as that point.

Dictionary.com actually defines Conspiracy Theory as: "the idea that many important political events or economic and social trends are the products of deceptive plots that are largely unknown to the general public"
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/conspiracy-theory

And what they are doing would count.

So quite literally you are supporting people breaking those rules. While my suggestion isn't even about adding more rules but allowing the moderation to enforce existing rules.

And you notice I put a difference between being wrong and lying. I specified the difference and the point where it would cross the line between a mistake and intentionally spreading lies.

From your example about the supreme court, when they refuse to hear it, they are effectively banning it from their courtroom in that case. And the Supreme Court is a horrible example as it is currently made up of a super majority of nominations that are confirmed to have committed perjury during their own confirmations with one of them a potential serial rapist. The current Supreme Court respects the constitution about as much as Russia respects Ukraine and actively support their own ideological ideals. We literally had them drafting opinions we weren't supposed to see where they could be honest where they were talking about the right to gay marriage and perform/receive oral sex weren't real rights and should be able to be regulated.

[Fugus]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post54080368

Qanon Shaman will get a huge payday. Either from the lawsuit, speaking fees, a book. Its coming. He was clearly a political prisoner and releasing him super early from prison under pressure from Tucker Carlson is proof of that. its an admission of guilt the government did him wrong by releasing him this early, period.

Good example. This guy posts crap like this all the time. But according to the people in charge, that isn't trolling, it isn't posting unconstructively or anything.


And for context so people don't have to look too far into it, he is talking about the guy from January 6th who was dressed like a WoW Shaman as he invaded the capital building and did all the stuff he did.

Also, this guy has over 10,000 posts and been an active member since 2007.

Edit: And for further context, the shaman guy is being transferred to a halfway house for the last 3 months of his sentence. This guy just has a habit of lying about headlines which evidently isn't posting in ways that contribute nothing otherwise he would be breaking the rules.

[Fugus]

Also as a slight update to the moderation here.

I dare you, I double dare you to actually look at the posting history of tehdang and tell me that that isn't putting up posts that contribute nothing as they are factual lies or conspiracy theories.

[Linkedblade]

Give the moderators in the section the authority to deal with trolls and bad faith posters.

I mean you had Thwart as a moderator for what felt like forever while he did everything he could to refuse to do his job and instead was an activist who would ban and infract anyone who talked bad about Trump but let people who fawned over him break rule after rule.

He is gone now but according the to moderators their they don’t have the authority to deal with trolls and bad faith posters who have been there for years and make what they are doing very apparent and the most they can do is give them an infraction but typically only after 5+ pages or derailing threads with people too self absorbed to let their trolling be ignored and roll off the threads so they HAVE to respond to it at which point they are more likely to get the infraction for responding to them then they are.

I understand those who keep feeding them are almost as responsible for the trolling as the trolls but the moderators act powerless to do anything about them.

Everyone posts there in bad faith. And it's practically entirely foreigners nation bashing the US.

[Fugus]

Everyone posts there in bad faith. And it's practically entirely foreigners nation bashing the US.

No, it is a handful of people posting in bad faith for months or even years while getting, at best, token gestures after they have been going for potentially 2 dozen pages at times.

Someone posting something they think is true but isn't isn't posting in bad faith. Someone posting something that they already know is a lie is.

Someone posting something that has no basis in science, history, law, or known reality while refusing to show anything to support that fact or at best showing some wacko conspiracy site while also refusing to accept all evidence to the contrary is posting conspiracy theories at that point as well.