New Villain Appreciation thread

[thegoodbroham]

Listen I know this is MMO champion and most of the people here resent the game or haven't played in years, but for real.

WoW has never been the groundbreaking narrative game for the genre like its competitors have been. And Shadowlands was criticized heavily for such an incredibly boring & generic villain in the Jailer.

Which makes me appreciate the primal incarnates and their visages all that much more. Their character designs look great and they already have more personality as a group than any other major villain I can think of after Arthas.

Iridikron himself may be the more traditional serious strong man villain type and would be boring by himself - but he's got ice lady with the cold demeanor, and the more unhinged impatient dude ready to blaze things up.

I've been enjoying Dragonflight for the shift away from borrowed power in general, its been a good expansion gameplay wise and personally I'll be able to settle for solid gameplay at expense to temporary settings that I might not vibe with... but I admit that the introduction of these characters took me by pleasant surprise. I hope I'm not alone in feeling this way and hope that providing positive feedback, we can help encourage more intriguing character designs.

[Fistfighter]

I am gonna say it.
They ARE very generic and one dimensional.

The only reason why they look appealing is because they were a surprise. I gotta say, they got me too. I totally believed the 4 primal aspects were just boring generic baddies with generic boring names, motives and characters.

And if we saw these models a year ago during the datamining, we wouldn't be as excited about them as we are now.


I applaud blizz for keeping them secret for this long, tho

[Relapses]

I find these villains even more bland than The Jailer. The complete lack of knowing where the story is going kind of deflates a lot of my hype, too.

[Biomega]

They're anime villains, of the most generic kind. No real motivation, nothing discernible beyond "we're bad guys, and we're gonna do bad things!", no real cohesive story to slot into. Sure the design of their vision forms is interesting and they look kinda cool, but in terms of narrative, this is about as bland as it gets.

I guess it's the development time lag to blame for them not learning anything from the Jailer fiasco. Mystery is one thing, but if you don't make people CARE in some substantial way, then you can't really generate investment into stories or fates. Blizzard is really kinda bad at this. They think "the world is gonna end, you guys!" is somehow enough as a narrative driver, but the fact that this has been the case for decades now really kind of makes it ring hollow. Villains like Arthas or the Legion at least had a legacy of previous storylines that gave you an idea about what they were like and what they were all about, but the new villains they've introduced since have really never risen above the level of Generic Big Bad - for all the attempts at making the Jailer into this 4D-chess mastermind behind every event in the WC universe, it never actually went anywhere. We never found out what he was after or was doing, exactly; all we got was more generic one-liners in the vein of he'll remake reality, he'll enslave us all, yada yada. And they have not managed to rise above that in DF, not even close.

[Ghost of Cow]

They think "the world is gonna end, you guys!" is somehow enough as a narrative driver, but the fact that this has been the case for decades now really kind of makes it ring hollow.

I touched on this in an XIV thread, but it's true here, too.

"The world is gonna end" is the absolute least interesting plot driver and has no actual "stakes" because...well, it can't happen. Just like how "I'm going to kill you, [player character]!" is always weak. Azeroth isn't going anywhere, the player character isn't going anywhere.

It's like betting your friend a trillion dollars that the Lions will win the Super Bowl. It's not an interesting bet because neither of you has a trillion dollars, so no matter how big a number it is or how dramatic you try to make it, it's just...nothing at all.

[Guyviroth]

I find these villains even more bland than The Jailer. The complete lack of knowing where the story is going kind of deflates a lot of my hype, too.

For myself, I find the opposite. The lack of knowing where the story is going is what keeps me invested, because it is unpredictable.

Aside from that, I like the dynamic between the incarnates, or at least the remaining ones. Ice lady who's name I forget seems to appreciate her kin the most, in both appearances mentioning the loss of Raszageth. Fyrakk is the hot blooded vengeful one who has an interesting, almost unhinged personality. Iridikron, or stone Thanos as I like to call him, in the tempered and patient one, which makes his next actions a fun speculation. That, and as Alexstrasza mentioned, it'll be interesting to see what Dark bargains and depravity he has committed before his imprisonment.

Granted, they'll probably get wrecked in subsequent raids or, God forbid, as one or more world bosses, but the fact that we don't know where the rest of the expansion is going is what keeps me both interested and invested. Its not fun reading a book or watching a movie if you k ow what's going to happen from beginning to middle to end.

[Relapses]

They're anime villains, of the most generic kind. No real motivation, nothing discernible beyond "we're bad guys, and we're gonna do bad things!", no real cohesive story to slot into. Sure the design of their vision forms is interesting and they look kinda cool, but in terms of narrative, this is about as bland as it gets.

I guess it's the development time lag to blame for them not learning anything from the Jailer fiasco. Mystery is one thing, but if you don't make people CARE in some substantial way, then you can't really generate investment into stories or fates. Blizzard is really kinda bad at this. They think "the world is gonna end, you guys!" is somehow enough as a narrative driver, but the fact that this has been the case for decades now really kind of makes it ring hollow. Villains like Arthas or the Legion at least had a legacy of previous storylines that gave you an idea about what they were like and what they were all about, but the new villains they've introduced since have really never risen above the level of Generic Big Bad - for all the attempts at making the Jailer into this 4D-chess mastermind behind every event in the WC universe, it never actually went anywhere. We never found out what he was after or was doing, exactly; all we got was more generic one-liners in the vein of he'll remake reality, he'll enslave us all, yada yada. And they have not managed to rise above that in DF, not even close.

I'm inclined to think this is less a Blizzard problem and more a Danuser problem. Dude fucking loves deep, interpersonal stories where we get to explore the inner workings of our protag/antags. This stuff works great with quests but I think it kind of falls flat on its face when you apply it to WoW's story. WoW is best (imo) when it lobs common sense out the door and stabs the planet with a giant fucking sword because reasons. I wish we'd get back to more of that stuff and less trying to figure out why some random character introduced for this expansion is big sad/mad.

[Biomega]

I touched on this in an XIV thread, but it's true here, too.

"The world is gonna end" is the absolute least interesting plot driver and has no actual "stakes" because...well, it can't happen. Just like how "I'm going to kill you, [player character]!" is always weak. Azeroth isn't going anywhere, the player character isn't going anywhere.

It's like betting your friend a trillion dollars that the Lions will win the Super Bowl. It's not an interesting bet because neither of you has a trillion dollars, so no matter how big a number it is or how dramatic you try to make it, it's just...nothing at all.

Very true, and I've said for the longest time that what WoW (and many other entertainment franchises) really needs is actual CONSEQUENCES. Serious shit happening.

For all the hate it gets from various sides and for various reasons, I always found the Burning of Teldrassil to be one of the best WoW story moments, simply because it was SOMETHING. It was big, it was impactful, it did stuff to the world and the story. And yeah it became pretty much irrelevant quite quickly, but it was miles above all the other bland generic inconsequential pseudo-events that usually make up WoW's storyline.

It's as you say - "will Captain Kirk die on an away mission THIS TIME? tune in and find out if this serialized show will actually do away with its main character in a random side episode! THE SUSPENSE MUST BE KILLING YOU, RIGHT?".

- - - Updated - - -

I'm inclined to think this is less a Blizzard problem and more a Danuser problem. Dude fucking loves deep, interpersonal stories where we get to explore the inner workings of our protag/antags. This stuff works great with quests but I think it kind of falls flat on its face when you apply to WoW's story. WoW is best (imo) when it lobs common sense out the door and stabs the planet with a giant fucking sword because reasons. I wish we'd get back to more of that stuff and less trying to figure out why some random character introduced for this expansion is big sad/mad.

It might be, but it's not like WoW hasn't been doing this for a long time, and it's not the only franchise that operates that way. People are afraid to rock an established world, and actually do serious stuff with it, because SOMEONE SOMEWHERE will always go "I can't believe you killed Generic Orc Dude 305 he was the only reason I play this game YOU SUCK /unsub" and they're more afraid of whiny shit like that then they are of people getting bored with plots that never go anywhere because... that's become standard in so many ways across the entertainment world.

[Jastall]

I do like Iridikron's Visage form a lot. Dude looks way cooler as humanoid than a dragon.

Aside from that they're pretty generic. The lady looks like the nicest of the lot, Fyrak is the typical hot blooded brute, and Iridikron is the guy vaguely talking about schemes and plots.

Maybe they'll develop as the expansion goes on but I expect none of them to survive the proceedings. They feel like placeholder villains until Murozond to me. Much like Scalecommander whatshisface.

[Relapses]

For myself, I find the opposite. The lack of knowing where the story is going is what keeps me invested, because it is unpredictable.

Aside from that, I like the dynamic between the incarnates, or at least the remaining ones. Ice lady who's name I forget seems to appreciate her kin the most, in both appearances mentioning the loss of Raszageth. Fyrakk is the hot blooded vengeful one who has an interesting, almost unhinged personality. Iridikron, or stone Thanos as I like to call him, in the tempered and patient one, which makes his next actions a fun speculation. That, and as Alexstrasza mentioned, it'll be interesting to see what Dark bargains and depravity he has committed before his imprisonment.

Granted, they'll probably get wrecked in subsequent raids or, God forbid, as one or more world bosses, but the fact that we don't know where the rest of the expansion is going is what keeps me both interested and invested. Its not fun reading a book or watching a movie if you k ow what's going to happen from beginning to middle to end.

I get it, I'm just not there... like, at all. I find myself caring even less about characters that have failed to resonate with me on any meaningful level. I get that mystery is nice but the stakes just don't feel particularly high and it feels like we're biding time until some big reveal mid-expansion that is neither all that interesting nor all that surprising.

[Yarathir]

From my experience, they're basically fast-forwarded Jailer. At least Raszageth was.

[Ginnung]

They haven't even done anything yet rofl.

I think a big problem with Blizzard writing in general is that they '' write monologues '' more than they write characters.
Characters just make big speeches with overly dramatic music playing in the background, and usually they're way too vague and never really say anything meaningful.
I noticed this in the Diablo 4 beta too how there would be these big cutscenes and the characters ( mainly Lilith ) would say a lot of words that ultimately meant nothing.
And these were big story cutscenes too...
Like an entire scene is just her saying a bunch of nonsense which adds nothing to the story or her as a character and the whole scene is just an excuse to have gratuitous violence.
It doesn't forward the story in any way or really add anything worth making it a cutscene.

It's something that has become increasingly obvious to me with Blizzard writing, that they write '' big moments '' that are pretty meaningless.
Something being '' cool '' doesn't make it good writing.
I definitely think that it has gotten worse and worse over time but it's not anything new either, and it's a general theme in Blizzard games.

I think even their CG trailers are a bit outdated in this sense, they don't really do a good job at telling a story or making you speculate it really feels like the only intent of them is to '' look cool ''.
They need to take a step back and stop trying to just impress people with big cool moments all the time and develop actual characters.

[Kithelle]

I find these villains even more bland than The Jailer. The complete lack of knowing where the story is going kind of deflates a lot of my hype, too.

So you find it more fun when the story is predictable and know where it's going before we're even heading there? Either you're complaining for the sake of complaining or you're like Sheldon Cooper and your entire life is scripted to even when you use the bathroom...no variety at all

[Ginnung]

So you find it more fun when the story is predictable and know where it's going before we're even heading there? Either you're complaining for the sake of complaining or you're like Sheldon Cooper and your entire life is scripted to even when you use the bathroom...no variety at all

That's not exactly a very fair interpretation of what the person you're responding to said...
There's a difference between '' predictable '' and '' I want to know what's going on and what the story actually is ''.

[Kokolums]

The Primal Incarnates are terrible. Its all the same constipated, stoic acting and line-reading. They have zero personality. They are the same as the jailer. Totally forgettable, but painstaking to watch in cinematics. It would be better to cancel all future cinematics and stop even trying to tell a story than to give us this garbage.

[Aucald]

This thread is about WoW villains you appreciate, not WoW villains you dislike - let's stay on topic and refocus criticism to more appropriate threads.

[Athorha]

The runecarver stole the show all of shadowlands, tbh I found the jailer to be more interesting than vanilla, tbc, mop, wod and legions end bosses. The only interesting character those expansions introduced that was reused was bringing back guldan. As of right now there's absolutely no character that's been introduced in dragonflight that I would want to see last beyond the expansion. Even the aspects seem like they're on their way out of the spotlight rather than returning into it.

[sam86]

This thread is about WoW villains you appreciate, not WoW villains you dislike - let's stay on topic and refocus criticism to more appropriate threads.

i thought it is about DF villains that topic creator appreciate, not in general
if in general, i like a lot of old villains, like Hakkar, or (of course, the absolute best) Arthas
did i get this topic wrong?

[Aucald]

i thought it is about DF villains that topic creator appreciate, not in general
if in general, i like a lot of old villains, like Hakkar, or (of course, the absolute best) Arthas
did i get this topic wrong?

I viewed it as more general than just appreciation of the Primal Incarnates specifically, but I don't think it's a place for unabashed criticism all the same. AKA, preferably no "WoW sucks, its villains suck, and it all sucks" or posts of that ilk.

[ThatsOurEric]

I actually think they look cool, and I'm willing to give'em a try. They feel very "Warcraft"-like, and they're
at least 100x more interesting than Ragnaros or any other Elemental villain was.