The third Evoker spec should be a ranged tank.

[Elbob]

I mean, that's just demonstrably not true, given that CoS has been pushed to a level equal/higher than any other dungeon currently, which means it simply does not REQUIRE a ranged tank whatsoever.

they mean the raid Crucible of storms or w/e not court of stars. But even that wasnt a third tank job. it was done bya dps that got a buff. reworking how bosses function is just a bad idea. The answer is they would just talk up and bunch the boss like any other tank. Paladins already use a nearly full kit of ranged spells but stand in melee so it would just be more of the same.

[Triceron]

You mean... like the first boss of COS that REQUIRES a ranged tank, or that one boss in SOD where you literally have to deal with being flung around constantly? Or literally half the fights where you're running around unable to do more then toss aggro without dealing damage simply because the boss keeps moving around, or how about those fights where the boss straight up has mechanics that ignore aggro?

:thinking:


And don't get me started on the intricacies of council from CN

The exceptions aren't the rule, and designing a Ranged Tank means it will play as a Ranged character for every fight that doesn't necessitate one.

Which means you're potentially fucking up every other raid boss strategy by bringing one to the team while doing very well in the three boss fights that you mentioned out of the dozens and dozens that don't.

I mean I can bring up how people brought a 'Ranged Tank' as far back as Naxx 4 Horsemen fight, but those exceptions simply work for the one-off encounters that are designed that way. Apply that to any other boss and the necessity for 'Ranged tanking' goes down immediately. Aside from the one or two boss encounters where the boss doesn't move anyways, there's really no point in having a Ranged Tank. Playing as a Tank who stays at Range is more of a risk to the raid than helpful for the one or two encounters that don't really need a tank to stay in Melee range.

There's no point in designing a spec to function against mechanics. It'd be like suggesting allowing DK's or Paladins to tank while mounted. Or Pet-based tanking. It'd be great for the fantasy, but quite counter-intuitive to how tanking is meant to be.

[draugril]

The longer this third spec talk goes on, the more I'm starting to believe they're going to do a dual role spec similar to pre-MoP Feral Druid.

Main difference is that this spec would be RDPS/Healing.

Why would they ever revisit a design philosophy that they deliberately designed away from for two decades?

[kenn9530]

You mean... like the first boss of COS that REQUIRES a ranged tank, or that one boss in SOD where you literally have to deal with being flung around constantly? Or literally half the fights where you're running around unable to do more then toss aggro without dealing damage simply because the boss keeps moving around, or how about those fights where the boss straight up has mechanics that ignore aggro?

:thinking:


And don't get me started on the intricacies of council from CN

The first boss in CoS does not require a ranged tank at all, ranged tanking does not work the game is not designed that way and it would be a major overhaul to make it work because most mobs are designed to want to melee the one with aggro.

[Nynax]

Its not even the fact that its dumb. There just isnt a 3rd spec coming to the class. I get that its a talking point, but it wont be happending. Not until DH gets its 3rd spec anyways.

Not really a good argument, tbh. Blizzard has always done class stuff in relation to expansion theme, right now it's all dragon stuff. There is no reason or theme, nor even a hint of a datamine, that has any reference to Demon Hunter content. If they start adding specs it will be with lore content, and right now Evoker has the focus.

[Vakna]

Ranged tanks will NEVER happen, mark my words. It would be an absolute nightmare of positioning. Only someone who has never seriously tanked would think this is a good idea.

[Ilookfly]

I feel like giving the bosses a way to dynamically check if tank is evoker tank and use a ranged ability if tank is evoker tank and outside of y range would solve the issues, especially for melee bosses. Bosses should still walk up to evoker for ability attacks imo

This would mean that the tank being ranged does not affect gameplay positively in any way but just makes to so bosses move around more.... what benefit would this have? This is a dog tier take. Im sorry

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We are long past the point of having highly specialized tanks for individual encounters or phases.

Dont get me wrong, ranged tanking is stupid. But we are absolutely not past tanks being specialized and good at handling diferent types of encounters. Maybe it doesnt matter in easier content but tank comp absolutely matters in higher-end content.

[Ielenia]

Same as any other tank. Their abilities simply have more range. That doesn't mean they stay at range.

So you're saying that the "ranged" part of "ranged tank" is completely moot and pointless and meaningless?

[Soeroah]

I was thinking this, too.

With their earth elemental powers I can easily see dracthyr tanking by essentially summoning a large, stationary earth elemental that keeps aggro on the boss, funnelling their own power into it as shared attacks (IE the dracthyr uses an ability and the elemental performs it, rather than treating it as a pet), and a core part of the gimmick is that the dracthyr is able to instantly reposition the elemental at their current location.

That way it's sort of a ranged tank, but positioning is still important - and, much like how evoker healers require a bit of predicting the future, the positioning for the tank requires a bit of pre-planning/pre-movement, too, since you need to get into the right position before 'pulling' the elemental over to you.

And, of course, if the elemental dies the evoker inherits all the threat and dies much quicker.

[Zantos]

I feel like giving the bosses a way to dynamically check if tank is evoker tank and use a ranged ability if tank is evoker tank and outside of y range would solve the issues, especially for melee bosses. Bosses should still walk up to evoker for ability attacks imo

Heres the problem with that: melee will be chasing the boss. Loss of dps. Now, any boss that has a frontal cleave would nuke any ranged near that tank. What this is asking for is for people to get nuked. Timers end up wonky and the boss does a big frontal aoe the same time it runs to the tank? There goes half the raid! Boss starts to transition based on a timer and is now in a horrible spot for the raid? Wipe! In order to avoid those, they would have to specifically design the boss so that it couldn't use any of those types of abilities, or if it has them, not use them while running around to the tank. That then opens up the literal flood gates. What would be stopping guilds from bringing in 2-3 evoker tanks and just having them rotate taunts on cd and cheese the entire fight to prevent the boss from doing anything?

Are you really trying to say that exactly one check and exactly one extra basic ability is that hard to do? Just run the check every time basic ability is ready to be used

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I've mained both UDK and BDK since WOD. I know how it works, and I know what I'm suggesting would still require the boss to occasionally walk up to the player who has aggro assuming they are a melee themed boss. That's perfect.

Doubt. As someone who has tanked on Every class at some point since Wrath, there is no way you tank and think this will work. What your suggesting isn't feasible. Its too easily gamed by your idea of forcing them to just not cast until they run up to the tank.

Its not exactly 1 check. Every Single Time the boss would have to start a move it would have to move. You couldnt have any frontal cones, a cleave, a split aoe, stacking debuffs on the tanks, position dependent soaks (like ranged standing in circles) or basically any real depth. It would have to check every melee swing of the boss. Not to mention the fact that it would throw off literally every timer for every ability with that. You're entire raid would have to shift just to adjust for it moving around so much. The loss of dps time alone could kill enrage timers. Not only timers, but the boss would have to functionally be different in each scenario in how it functioned at the basic level.

Your idea is not going to work in the slightest. Its got too many issues, could be gamed by keeping the boss in kiting limbo with your suggestion, or change the entire way the boss functions on a basic level because of 1 spec being included.

[Nymrohd]

Try positioning some of the more fiddly bosses that have tiny hitboxes and completely change their position because you strafed two steps to the left (pulling them out of range for multiple melee, disturbing the positioning of ranged stacks, possibly exposing some of the melee to half-circle cleaves or sidesweep attacks not to mention positioning for more complex encounter mechanics). Accurate positioning of bosses can already be annoying for melee tanks in the current engine. A ranged class with a pet could in theory tank a raid boss. But the limitations of the engine make it clear that precise positioning would be impossible. Positioning pets is simply not that fluid or responsive as moving your character (especially in the visually overwhelming mess that is most raid encounters)

As for tanking fully at range, if the boss comes at you every time it has to melee, then how are you ranged. If every boss has to be designed around a ranged tank existing so they have an entirely different behaviour when ranged tank, wtf are we doing?

And yes there have been raid bosses that had a ranged player maintain aggro on a specific mob or boss mob during the encounter. That's not an encounter specific role and we have several of those. There are many encounters when a set of players have to perform specific actions outside their main role to resolve an encounter mechanic. Should there be dedicated Control specs which focus entirely on kiting mobs?

Concerning support roles not being in WoW, wtf do people think healers are? Healers ARE support.

[Powerhug]

Oh dear lord... yet another thread that shows devs should never listen to players...

[Teriz]

Why would they ever revisit a design philosophy that they deliberately designed away from for two decades?

They really didn't. What happened was that the new MoP talent system didn't support a dual-role spec, so they split them apart. Feral worked just fine as a combined spec for almost a decade in WoW. The new talent system could support a dual role spec once again.

[Berkilak]

So you're saying that the "ranged" part of "ranged tank" is completely moot and pointless and meaningless?

Yes. Completely. It's entirely thematic. Just as being melee is entirely "moot and pointless and meaningless." The range of your abilities is entirely disconnected from the role.

[threads]

ranged tank lol that makes no sense

[Zendhal The Black]

We'll sooner get a great warcraftworthy story from Steve Danuser that we'll be proud of, than a ranged tank

The only boss that ranged tank could tank would have to be stationary, that one shots anyone in melee that has aggro on him

And that would be one boss per expansion so that would mean a spec that shines for 30 min in the entire expansion

[micwini]

And I'm not saying the third spec should be melee kite tanks like DHs are. I'm saying the third spec should be a genuine ranged tank, that can keep aggro from 15-25 yards out without needing to do it hunter/warlock style, so no pets.

The problem is that 90% of all mobs and pretty much every boss melee's, so it will always walk towards the evoker. Does this mean it is impossible? No. Maintaining some sort of root to prevent mobs/bosses from moving could be part of the kit, but I think that would be really annoying.
I think ranged tanking (without pet) can sometimes work on some bosses (we had one in BFA), but for most content it just isnt feasable. I think the closest we can get is stuff like prot pala, where most attacks are ranged, but you still have to be in melee.

[VinceVega]

And I'm not saying the third spec should be melee kite tanks like DHs are. I'm saying the third spec should be a genuine ranged tank, that can keep aggro from 15-25 yards out without needing to do it hunter/warlock style, so no pets.

Doesn't work with how wow works.
Why would the mob not run up to you?
Forever kiting? Makes 99% of the mechanics in wow impossible and pure cancer for everyone to try to not get one shot by frontals and stuff. ALso he needs huge mobility which basically would make him a god in PVP.
Not to mention he cannot get hit by melee attacks so he is by default the best tank in the game as he would not take damage half of the time.

ALso the pure logic behind it. You make soemthing so angry at you that it wants to attack you and nothing else but also does not want hit you and stays far away to be pummeled with ranged attacks by you?

[unknowndeath]

I assume you have never tanked. How would you position the boss as a ranged tank?

he would ask tank nicely to pose at a certain position

[Cathfaern]

I think the closest we can get is stuff like prot pala, where most attacks are ranged, but you still have to be in melee.

Guardian Druid is also semi-ranged currently. Moonfire is fully ranged and is a large amount of dmg / threat, trash and swipe also has 11 yard range. In some sense brewmaster is also a ranged tank because with high mobility it can kite and hold threat indefinitely (if the mobs are kiteable of course).

I really don't understand why people both:
1. Emphasize that some tank should be "ranged", because yes, bosses will be always be meleeing
2. Think a tank having mostly long range spells would mean something special

"Range tank" in the sense that having a tank, how is standing in melee, but have long ranged threat holding spells is totally possible and would not break anything.
Having a caster tank is also possible by having a passive that their tank stats work like you would not casting, and your main defensive spells would not interrupt casting (we already have such things for channelled spells for healers and dps). Or you could just make most of the dmg spells of Evoker instant for the tank spec.