Bard popularity in the eyes of the general audience

[Wangming]

This is incorrect. It used to be. It was a support job effectively until Heavensward. So no, this isnt accurate. And yes, I played 1.0, beta and ARR. Bard was 100% a support first, dps job second. It was so bad in classic ARR it had to be turbo buffed during 2.2 and then it was mega op for the reason of the content duration.

Even then it was listed as a physical DPS job and competed for DPS slots in duty finder. There is no dedicated support slot in the party.

[Vaedan]

Yeah, Blizzard isn't going to base a class on Winslow Swan the skeletal minstrel.

Expansion cover worthy he is not.

Remember the time Chen was not even in game itself, was mentioned only in outside materials and years old RTS game? He was travelling panda with good taste for beer. What a Worthy material indeed.

You asked for WoW bard, there it is. Surely whole bard class does not need to be skeletal, nor does it need to be represented as such.

He is real representative of the Warcraft Bard class. He casts ranged Sonic attacks and debuffs enemies with his song. Nothing remotely similar to ETC. Now you can see that WoW Bard could do something different to ETC.

Would there be a Chance to get ETC style Bards? Yes, it would, but whole class can do more than that.

[Teriz]

Remember the time Chen was not even in game itself, was mentioned only in outside materials and years old RTS game? He was travelling panda with good taste for beer. What a Worthy material indeed.

You asked for WoW bard, there it is. Surely whole bard class does not need to be skeletal, nor does it need to be represented as such.

Chen was in WC3, CCGs, WC-related products, and in the WoW TTRPG, which was considered canon at the time and further fleshed out the abilities of the Brewmaster. So while he wasn't physically in WoW, he was a well established character in the franchise. Further, Pandaria was one of the most requested expansions leading up to Mists of Pandaria. So you had the hero, you had his class concept, you had the unique abilities, and you had the location for an expansion to tie it all together. Comparing that to Winslow Swan is laughable on every level.

[Vaedan]

Chen was in WC3 and in the WoW TTRPG, which was considered canon at the time and further fleshed out the abilities of the Brewmaster. So while he wasn't physically in WoW, he was a well established character in the franchise. Further, Pandaria was one of the most requested expansions leading up to Mists of Pandaria. So you had the hero, you had his class concept, you had the unique abilities, and you had the location for an expansion to tie it all together. Comparing that to Winslow Swan is laughable on every level.

But they does not need to be compared. They are both their own thing. Winslow is also canon character and that means, bards (or minstrel) are canon too. If you chose to disregard it, then it's your own ignorance.

By the way, you does not need to have a hero for a class to implement. Chen had extremely vague hero concept, monk class was build on its entirety on new lore connected to pandaren history (their Revolution against Mogu Empire) and their faith to Celestials. Nothing of that was featured on Chen. He was just wandering brewmaster.

[Triceron]

The problem is that the build-up you're talking about took about 20 years, and the seeds of that were sown at the end of WC3 with Arthas shredding a guitar in the ending credits, so you're actually looking at 20+ years. If Blizzard had any intention of making the Bard in the way you described, they would have started awhile ago, and we'd have some heroes established with clear themes and abilities at this point.

False.

Heavy Metal was present in Warcraft as early as Warcraft 2 Beyond the Dark Portal. Grom Hellscream and the Warsong Clan were already clearly tied to that theme, and it's a theme that persists throughout Warcraft to this day.

And there's no reason to imply an argument of 'if they were gonna do it they would have already' when Tinkers still aren't playable.

Because neither of those are expansion worthy themes and frankly they're terrible ideas. No one cares about the history of the Windrunners after dealing with Sylvanas for multiple expansions, and if you create an expansion based on the history of Orc music, the fans will think that Blizzard is purposely trying to kill the game.

You could say that about having an expansion based on Goblins and Gnomes too. It doesn't stop the potential of an Undermine expansion.

The fastest route is to just feed ETC some lore, but by reading the room, I can see that Bard fans don't want that concept. So yeah, you're starting at square one.

And no one else seems to agree here. The fastest route is not the best or most effective route, nor is it the only route. I've outlined multiple, better options, most which you just dismiss because you have a heavy bias against Bards to begin with.

And there is literally nothing wrong with square one, considering classes like Monks and Evokers are built up from square one. Pandaren Martial Arts theme never existed prior to Monk. A class with all 5 Dragonflight powers never existed before Evokers. That can't even be said about Bards, since we actually have examples of them in Warcraft.

You're free to have an unpopular opinion, of course.

[Teriz]

But they does not need to be compared. They are both their own thing. Winslow is also canon character and that means, bards (or minstrel) are canon too. If you chose to disregard it, then it's your own ignorance.

Winslow is not his own thing. He's a random NPC that you're not going to see again. Blizzard is not going to base a new class on that character, much less make him marquee enough to be placed on the cover of an expansion. He's simply not a major character.

By the way, you does not need to have a hero for a class to implement. Chen had extremely vague hero concept, monk class was build on its entirety on new lore connected to pandaren history (their Revolution against Mogu Empire) and their faith to Celestials. Nothing of that was featured on Chen. He was just wandering brewmaster.

This is false. People predicted a Monk class associated with Chen for years. Part of it stems from the Pandaren Monk pet that you got from Chen years before MoP was released. Here's an article from August 2011 (MoP was announced in October 2011) that also predicts a Monk class associated with Chen Stormstout and Brewmasters alongside a Pandaria expansion;

https://www.engadget.com/2011-08-07-...-pandaria.html

That's how obvious a Chen-based Monk class was leading up to MoP.

[M1r4g3]

Because the fantasy extends well beyond tights and dancing.

Yea but at that point you can just call warriors singers because they have shouts if we are going with such extreme examples. That's just cavalry with a single buff that melees people with axes, oh and the kodo eats people, how very bard-like.

You can do that for every single class idea in the game, i.e. painting them in a "dumb, stupid" light to discredit it. Not to mention it doesn't help your position when you're condescending and aggressive from the get-go.

Yeah but it would be quite the stretch compared to a bard.

*Bard popularity in the eyes of the general audience* as part of the general audience who has no personal connections to bards that's how i view them, it might seem aggressive to you but that's simply because i think bards are extremely stupid, i could not care less if you love them or not tho, that has no impact on my views.

[Triceron]

Yea but at that point you can just call warriors singers because they have shouts if we are going with such extreme examples. That's just cavalry with a single buff that melees people with axes, oh and the kodo eats people, how very bard-like.

What would you call the Kodorider then, a Warrior? A Hunter?

No, it is a Support unit that plays Music. That's what it is. And that's effectively what the class we're talking about would do.

Quite different from a Warrior that shouts. Kodo Rider wasn't a melee unit either for that matter.

[Teriz]

False.

Heavy Metal was present in Warcraft as early as Warcraft 2 Beyond the Dark Portal. Grom Hellscream and the Warsong Clan were already clearly tied to that theme, and it's a theme that persists throughout Warcraft to this day.

And there's no reason to imply an argument of 'if they were gonna do it they would have already' when Tinkers still aren't playable.



You could say that about having an expansion based on Goblins and Gnomes too. It doesn't stop the potential of an Undermine expansion.

The difference is they have enhanced Gazlowe's character and formerly brought him into the horde, turned Gallywix into a full villain, mentioned that they want Goblins to return to Undermine, created more original tinker abilities, and also mentioned that Zalarek Caverns will lead to more underground content in the future. That's an example of seeding for a future expansion and class. We have zero seeding for a Bard class outside of ETC, which the majority seemingly despise. So yeah, there's pretty much nothing.

And no one else seems to agree here. The fastest route is not the best or most effective route, nor is it the only route. I've outlined multiple, better options, most which you just dismiss because you have a heavy bias against Bards to begin with.

You're free to have an unpopular opinion, of course.

The Bard is an unpopular class concept for WoW, so no matter what we say here, it will be unpopular.

[Triceron]

The difference is they have enhanced Gazlowe's character and formerly brought him into the horde, turned Gallywix into a full villain, mentioned that they want Goblins to return to Undermine, created more original tinker abilities, and also mentioned that Zalarek Caverns will lead to more underground content in the future. That's an example of seeding for a future expansion and class.

Actually, it isn't different if your argument is 'If they wanted to do something about it they would have made it playable already'.

Have they done anything with Gazlowe since BFA? He was gone in Shadowlands, and remains out of the picture today in Dragonflight. Your argument works against you if this is what you truly believe.

And why wouldn't Lirath and the existence of Bards in Warcraft; as well as the Boost abilities and exploration of more utility in the Evoker; not be a seed towards Bards?

The Bard is an unpopular class concept for WoW, so no matter what we say here, it will be unpopular.

So was Dragonsworn. Who cares?

Blizzard takes unpopular concepts and makes them playable regardless. Mechagnomes weren't made playable because they are popular.

[M1r4g3]

What would you call the Kodorider then, a Warrior? A Hunter?

No, it is a Support unit that plays Music. That's what it is. And that's effectively what the class we're talking about would do.

Quite different from a Warrior that shouts. Kodo Rider wasn't a melee unit either for that matter.

What would you call a beast riding axe thrower, a bard obviously!

[Triceron]

What would you call a beast riding axe thrower, a bard obviously!

What do you think a Wardrummer is? Yes, it would be an equivalent of a Bard.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/336..._45422_0_0_0_0

[Vaedan]

Winslow is not his own thing. He's a random NPC that you're not going to see again. Blizzard is not going to base a new class on that character, much less make him marquee enough to be placed on the cover of an expansion. He's simply not a major character.



This is false. People predicted a Monk class associated with Chen for years. Part of it stems from the Pandaren Monk pet that you got from Chen years before MoP was released. Here's an article from August 2011 (MoP was announced in October 2011) that also predicts a Monk class associated with Chen Stormstout and Brewmasters alongside a Pandaria expansion;

https://www.engadget.com/2011-08-07-...-pandaria.html

That's how obvious a Chen-based Monk class was leading up to MoP.

It is not important for Winslow to show again. He is not major NPC and he does not need to be on a cover of anything.

Hero Classes requires their own faces and usually comes with special starter zones with lore explaining, how this special class becomes playable.

Bards does not need this. They are not Hero Class material, in the same way monks were not implemented as hero class. Their notable NPCs would come alongside them.

As for monks, they were discussed and yes, they were favorite request alongside pandaren. As it turned out, Chen is not mighty progenitor of Monk class (as Arthas was for DKs, Illidan for DHs and Neltharion for Evokers, who are all HERO classes), we found out that the origin of Monk class is based on pandaren history and he was just a representative of one fraction of the order. Bards could be exactly the same.

And you have in game evidence that WoW bards are a thing, because there is an NPC of that class. We also had a glimpse of its abilities in game, which is more that we had for monks before they were announced.

[M1r4g3]

What do you think a Wardrummer is? Yes, it would be a Bard.

Not someone with all of the traits of a hunter? Again at that point warrior = singer because they have a shout, not their fault you don't like their genre.

[SilverLion]

We don't know.


You don't know that.


Except I never said that the bard would not have any support abilities. I simply said it wouldn't be a support class. You can have support abilities without being a support class. Each and every single class in WoW is proof-positive of that.

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I wasn't being disingenuous, and it doesn't matter what the FFXIV used to be. What matters is what it is now, which is proof-positive that the bard doesn't have to be "full support class" to be in a MMORPG game.

You're being disingenuous. The conversation has been about implementation. FF14 didn't implement Bard as a pure DPS job. Period. Doesn't matter what they are now. If we're talking about design and whether FF did a Bard design, then we look at the ARR implementation instead of incorrectly cherry picking. I get that you don't like Teriz but honestly you two have the same argument style of make shit up when it suits you.

[Triceron]

It is not important for Winslow to show again. He is not major NPC and he does not need to be on a cover of anything.

Hero Classes requires their own faces and usually comes with special starter zones with lore explaining, how this special class becomes playable.

Bards does not need this. They are not Hero Class material, in the same way monks were not implemented as hero class. Their notable NPCs would come alongside them.

As for monks, they were discussed and yes, they were favorite request alongside pandaren. As it turned out, Chen is not mighty progenitor of Monk class (as Arthas was for DKs, Illidan for DHs and Neltharion for Evokers, who are all HERO classes), we found out that the origin of Monk class is based on pandaren history and he was just a representative of one fraction of the order. Bards could be exactly the same.

And you have in game evidence that WoW bards are a thing, because there is an NPC of that class. We also had a glimpse of its abilities in game, which is more that we had for monks before they were announced.

Exactly this. As a standard class, Bard would be accessible to a lot of different races, and their concept would not be hinged on any specific character or group of characters like a Hero character is typically centralized around. It would be rooted in a much broader archetype that isn't molded after any specific Hero, much like how Rogues were designed.

Blizzard has given us plenty of examples to draw from.

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We don't know.

You don't know that.

If you claim ignorance then there's nothing to discuss but your ignorance.

Yes, you don't know, therefore you don't have a counterclaim. If you don't know, then you're just equally assuming an alternative rather than actually countering anything I've said; your opinion against mine. Nothing is actually refuted, all you're doing is saying that you disagree, and I respect your opinion but will point out it doesn't change anything I've said.

[Teriz]

Actually, it isn't different if your argument is 'If they wanted to do something about it they would have made it playable already'.

That wasn't the argument. The argument is seeding the concept to set up for a playable class and an expansion. For example the 8 years of seeding that led to Mists of Pandaria and the Monk class. In this case, you're dealing with a class concept (Bards) that the creators of Blizzard disliked by nature.

Have they done anything with Gazlowe since BFA? He was gone in Shadowlands, and remains out of the picture today in Dragonflight. Your argument works against you if this is what you truly believe.

Arthas, Chen, Illidan, and Alexstraza were absent for multiple expansions leading up to DKs, Monks, DHs, and Evokers as well.

And why wouldn't Lirath and the existence of Bards in Warcraft; as well as the Boost abilities and exploration of more utility in the Evoker; not be a seed towards Bards?

Because Lirath is not a hero character with any Bard abilities or any way to influence the lore. You'll be lucky to see him again after Shadowlands.

So was Dragonsworn. Who cares?

And if you notice, we didn't get Dragonsworn, we got playable dragons (sort of).

[Ielenia]

Yeah but it would be quite the stretch compared to a bard.

*Bard popularity in the eyes of the general audience* as part of the general audience who has no personal connections to bards that's how i view them, it might seem aggressive to you but that's simply because i think bards are extremely stupid, i could not care less if you love them or not tho, that has no impact on my views.

And if the movie does well, and the movie explicitly characterizes the main character as a bard (such as having other characters call him 'bard'), that has the potential of putting the bard concept more on the forefront of people's minds, especially those who play fantasy games such as D&D, WoW and FFXIV.

It's a fact that niche stuff tends to become more popular when it's showcased in popular events, such as movies and TV shows. Case in point: Stranger Things and Critical Role (among others) did quite a lot to help D&D's popularity.

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You're being disingenuous. The conversation has been about implementation. FF14 didn't implement Bard as a pure DPS job. Period.

That's irrelevant, though. Because the current implementation of the bard in FFXIV is of a "ranged DPS with support abilities".

[LionSinMaikeru]

Chen was in WC3, CCGs, WC-related products, and in the WoW TTRPG, which was considered canon at the time and further fleshed out the abilities of the Brewmaster. So while he wasn't physically in WoW, he was a well-established character in the franchise. Further, Pandaria was one of the most requested expansions leading up to Mists of Pandaria. So you had the hero, you had his class concept, you had the unique abilities, and you had the location for an expansion to tie it all together. Comparing that to Winslow Swan is laughable on every level.

I feel like we have drastically different memories of this time period.

Because I remember a bunch of fans being very vocal about NOT wanting Pandarens in the game, thinking the concept of a Pandaren Monk in WoW was stupid because of "it was an April Fool's Joke!!!!" and "LOL Kungfu Panda" Like the fandom did not receive it well at the time. Nowadays MoP is looked upon more fondly, but I remember a lot of people not being happy.

To counter your claim of Pandaria being "one of the most requested" you'd think it would be reflected in the demographics if that was true. Except, Pandaren make up the LOWEST % of characters on both sides (less than 2.5%), not including Allied Races which came half a decade + after them.

And while not Pandaren specific, Monks are Pandaren-adjacent and they aren't that popular. As of Mythic Dragonflight content, they're the lowest % of Tanks and Healers, and the 3rd lowest of the DPS. So either (A) a bunch of people loved them and suddenly decided meh or (B) they weren't as popular as you're suggesting.

[Ielenia]

If you claim ignorance then there's nothing to discuss but your ignorance.

By that token, you don't know either, so you have nothing to discuss but your ignorance as well.

If you don't know, then you're just equally assuming an alternative rather than actually countering anything I've said; your opinion against mine.

You're the one assuming things I'm not claiming. I never said anything about FFXIV's first iteration of the bard job.