Page 10 of 12 FirstFirst ...
8
9
10
11
12
LastLast
  1. #181
    I quit in Wrath after raiding in vanilla through Lich King (server first)

    It had stopped being interesting long before that for me. It's got cool elements and the novelty of killing bosses with tons of other people is fun, but it's such a fucking hassle, time drain, and more tedious than fun the way they've set it up IMO.

    I've dipped my toes in here with raiding since Wrath, I usually at least do LFR of a tier, but LFR is mind numbingly boring, the normal/heroic pick up group experience is a pain in the ass in many ways, and most guilds want you locked into a core group that runs specific times 2-3 nights a week. The options suck.

    FF14 does it better by letting you que for 1 boss with no trash. And WOW doesn't need to do that exactly, but it could very easily create an experience that serves the vast majority significantly better than now.

    I've been playing on and off for almost 19 years now and I'm fairly convinced they've arbitrarily rigged it and made it a hassle to let people that are willing to push past all the bullshit feel superior. It maybe sounds weird, but I really do think it's catered toward the superiority complex demographic. Just be willing to waste a lot of your time and you'll get past the arbitrary bullshit that filters out most people and you get to feel superior to them and get your fix.
    Last edited by Mojo03; 2023-09-17 at 05:37 AM.

  2. #182
    bring back 10 man raids, easier / better way to find guilds etc

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinksocking View Post
    bring back 10 man raids, easier / better way to find guilds etc
    Meta slaving in 10m mythic raiding will be much more severe. The spots are very restricted and there's much more pressure in a mythic guild than a m+ team. It will not be any easier, m+ already demonstrated that hardcore meta slaving isn't a positive.

    The 10m you lot are remembering will not be the same 10m today considering the current state of the community.

  4. #184
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    20,672
    I don't really have the data, but as far as feels go - Mythic raiding is becoming more and more pointless.

  5. #185
    can we like... make raid..... like............

    Raid heroic+ or raid mythic+ something? Something something u know and yah rewarding

  6. #186
    Raids in WoW retail feel like they’re in the process of being phased out, but other games they still thrive. I log on weekly in ffxiv, lotro, gw2, and classic vanilla/wotlk to do raids.

  7. #187
    Raiding needs 10m Mythic and day 1 crossrealm. That would already fix a ton of issues and I would actually come back to the game. Also remove the specific lockout for Mythic so people cant actually progress instead of ending up in a dead ID after the 1st or 2nd boss.

  8. #188
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    10,787
    Quote Originally Posted by Itori View Post
    Raids in WoW retail feel like they’re in the process of being phased out, but other games they still thrive. I log on weekly in ffxiv, lotro, gw2, and classic vanilla/wotlk to do raids.
    If WoW raids become even half of accessible as those in FF14, they might have a chance. But with the way they are being handled atm (and have for quite some time) they will become a relic of the past more sooner than later.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  9. #189
    Raiding started to shallow breathe since they clipped out 10 man heroic (mythic of today). It's only continued to get worse. I get that maybe they can make better encounters or it feels more epic lines of thinking when they bumped it to 20, and I generally agree with these points, but the truth is 10 man raids let a lot more groups form and feel like they are engaging in the higher content. In general, with an activity in a game the more groups rolling in the highest difficulty the more successful it becomes. It's easier for more people to be social and looser amongst fewer people as well. Plus we saw it play out live, 25 man's collapsed fairly quickly once 10s hit the streets. That didn't just happen for no reason. It's what people wanted and enjoyed.

    It's another example of them tunnel visioning on a very small sliver of the playerbases needs and trying to force the majority others to conform to it instead of the other way around which would have keeps the game mode way more popular.

    It's a shame really. But they wanted WoW to become some esports machine and it isolated a huge part of its fanbase away from it. Now with esports in the grips of a downgrade the ones left attached to that style of game scoot along to more promising ventures.

  10. #190
    I tend to think that they are aiming for a portion of the gaming community that is shrinking more so then growing. This expansion has been fantastic in the raiding sense since it became more drop in and drop out but no one really plays WoW as a long term game anymore and this is just the way gaming has happened for a large period of time. Look at the seasonal drop offs for other active online games to see the trends which is why i assume people get angry at the Diabloifcation of WoW but if it went back to prior to catch up mechanics we would see even less recoup once new DLC / Season comes out this is why i say they are not just competing against other MMOs but every single online game is competing with one another regardless of genre.

    The encounters up until recently have been requiring to much procession and felt like herding cats which the smaller raid groups a leg up. When you require specific buffs and debuffs it does not seem as a perk instead of makes them feel bad when they do not have them since we already know what a world with none of that shit is like. The proliferation of buffs has not brought the community together like it was supposed to but instead create more division since its a tangible gain. They could fix this by making a hunter bring every single raid buff or debuff based on a pet ( or a pet sac like for the marksmen out there ) but they still can not explain how they expect those classes to be brought in a heavily min/maxed game like WoW.

    Also raids are not repeatable and require to much effort in organizing and maintaining but lets look past that when compared to modern life, kids, pets, sporting events, childrens sporting events, overtime commitments, a raiding schedule kind of falls by the wayside and its no mistake why bother with it since most of the people who are dealing with those things i listed above are pushing cutting edge content either m+ or raiding. Balance should be for the everyman not the top.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by trapmaster View Post
    can we like... make raid..... like............

    Raid heroic+ or raid mythic+ something? Something something u know and yah rewarding
    raiding is already the quickest way to gear with the best weapons and trinkets yet no one still gives a shit so idk.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    I've been playing on and off for almost 19 years now and I'm fairly convinced they've arbitrarily rigged it and made it a hassle to let people that are willing to push past all the bullshit feel superior. It maybe sounds weird, but I really do think it's catered toward the superiority complex demographic. Just be willing to waste a lot of your time and you'll get past the arbitrary bullshit that filters out most people and you get to feel superior to them and get your fix.
    It's painfully obvious how correct you are.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    I've been playing on and off for almost 19 years now and I'm fairly convinced they've arbitrarily rigged it and made it a hassle to let people that are willing to push past all the bullshit feel superior. It maybe sounds weird, but I really do think it's catered toward the superiority complex demographic. Just be willing to waste a lot of your time and you'll get past the arbitrary bullshit that filters out most people and you get to feel superior to them and get your fix.
    I doubt they consciously think of it in such terms but this is very likely true. No different than some jobs requiring a college degree when someone off the street could do the job just as well with the same amount of on the job training that the degree holder would need anyway. Going through arbitrary and often irrelevant nonsense to prove yourself worthy of deserving the reward seems to be a thing for some reason.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    Raiding started to shallow breathe since they clipped out 10 man heroic (mythic of today). It's only continued to get worse. I get that maybe they can make better encounters or it feels more epic lines of thinking when they bumped it to 20, and I generally agree with these points, but the truth is 10 man raids let a lot more groups form and feel like they are engaging in the higher content. In general, with an activity in a game the more groups rolling in the highest difficulty the more successful it becomes. It's easier for more people to be social and looser amongst fewer people as well. Plus we saw it play out live, 25 man's collapsed fairly quickly once 10s hit the streets. That didn't just happen for no reason. It's what people wanted and enjoyed.

    It's another example of them tunnel visioning on a very small sliver of the playerbases needs and trying to force the majority others to conform to it instead of the other way around which would have keeps the game mode way more popular.

    It's a shame really. But they wanted WoW to become some esports machine and it isolated a huge part of its fanbase away from it. Now with esports in the grips of a downgrade the ones left attached to that style of game scoot along to more promising ventures.
    You're making half a dozen wild assumptions you cannot prove and are far-fetched at best, you sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist if you think 20m was done for 'esport' reasons. Accusing blizzard of tunnel vision is absurd when they made a compromise down to 20. Hc and normal are flex (10) and there's hardcore small group content in the form of m+ (5).

    You're conveniently only considerate of the immediate casual effects without being willing to look further down the line. As you pointed out, larger guilds died (and this was mostly because it's much easier to organise a smaller group, but w/e). So obviously 10m mythic would become the dominant mode sooner or later. This wouldn't be a radical assumption.

    As 10m becomes the dominant mode, and with intense meta slaving prevalent amongst the entire wow community, many people will actually be left out. It was hard to get into a 10m guild (because spots are very limited, obviously), but with the modern meta slaving going on you absolutely need to either play the correct class or be a multiclasser raider. The 10m mythic mode would, in effect, isolate a huge chunck of players, because they litteraly won't be able to get into 10m guilds considering the current environment. Just like they can't get into weekly 16s easily which have lfr difficulty. If you would be willing to look a bit further along the casual chain and the current context, then you should see why bringing back 10m mythic brings more trouble than its worth. M+ is litteraly demontrating and proving undeniably that people get left out for playing the wrong class etc, and the pressure in m+ is significantly lower.

    The only one with tunnel vision is you. You have an obvious bias and accusing others of suffering your syndrome is degenerate.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkeywing View Post
    You're making half a dozen wild assumptions you cannot prove and are far-fetched at best, you sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist if you think 20m was done for 'esport' reasons. Accusing blizzard of tunnel vision is absurd when they made a compromise down to 20. Hc and normal are flex (10) and there's hardcore small group content in the form of m+ (5).

    You're conveniently only considerate of the immediate casual effects without being willing to look further down the line. As you pointed out, larger guilds died (and this was mostly because it's much easier to organise a smaller group, but w/e). So obviously 10m mythic would become the dominant mode sooner or later. This wouldn't be a radical assumption.

    As 10m becomes the dominant mode, and with intense meta slaving prevalent amongst the entire wow community, many people will actually be left out. It was hard to get into a 10m guild (because spots are very limited, obviously), but with the modern meta slaving going on you absolutely need to either play the correct class or be a multiclasser raider. The 10m mythic mode would, in effect, isolate a huge chunck of players, because they litteraly won't be able to get into 10m guilds considering the current environment. Just like they can't get into weekly 16s easily which have lfr difficulty. If you would be willing to look a bit further along the casual chain and the current context, then you should see why bringing back 10m mythic brings more trouble than its worth. M+ is litteraly demontrating and proving undeniably that people get left out for playing the wrong class etc, and the pressure in m+ is significantly lower.

    The only one with tunnel vision is you. You have an obvious bias and accusing others of suffering your syndrome is degenerate.
    As someone who has never played the Meta tank this expansion i have not had a single issue at all for mythic plus and if you are going to say that a tank and healer are meta-less it would be wise to include that in your language. I will be coming back to the game next week to make it piss easy to be the same gear level as the more try hard or dedicated and will see first hand altho i did get KSH in june. Also where is the data to showcase that 16's are as easy as LFR? I mean if its so obvious and concrete you can clearly and easily showcase that right? Now i am not being a smug brit but honestly i think you are incorrect.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkeywing View Post
    You're making half a dozen wild assumptions you cannot prove and are far-fetched at best, you sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist if you think 20m was done for 'esport' reasons. Accusing blizzard of tunnel vision is absurd when they made a compromise down to 20. Hc and normal are flex (10) and there's hardcore small group content in the form of m+ (5).

    You're conveniently only considerate of the immediate casual effects without being willing to look further down the line. As you pointed out, larger guilds died (and this was mostly because it's much easier to organise a smaller group, but w/e). So obviously 10m mythic would become the dominant mode sooner or later. This wouldn't be a radical assumption.

    As 10m becomes the dominant mode, and with intense meta slaving prevalent amongst the entire wow community, many people will actually be left out. It was hard to get into a 10m guild (because spots are very limited, obviously), but with the modern meta slaving going on you absolutely need to either play the correct class or be a multiclasser raider. The 10m mythic mode would, in effect, isolate a huge chunck of players, because they litteraly won't be able to get into 10m guilds considering the current environment. Just like they can't get into weekly 16s easily which have lfr difficulty. If you would be willing to look a bit further along the casual chain and the current context, then you should see why bringing back 10m mythic brings more trouble than its worth. M+ is litteraly demontrating and proving undeniably that people get left out for playing the wrong class etc, and the pressure in m+ is significantly lower.

    The only one with tunnel vision is you. You have an obvious bias and accusing others of suffering your syndrome is degenerate.
    I'm sorry your upset and your feelings are valid. If the meta is so dominate its a class balance issue and not a raid size one. I see Max make videos were he says you can't bring a hunter to raid for this and that even with 20. So that problem isn't solved by it being 20 or 10 but by making sure class design is correct. Of course you can argue world first problem here but the same thing can be said about its a 30 key problem.

    Then you bring up the only reason larger guilds died because it's easier to organize. This sounds like people liked easier to organize? So.. people liked it more? The case you you to why it wasn't good is.. the reason they liked it more wasn't a good reason. But... they liked it more still. Interesting.

    Then you capping it off with an insult was sweet. Probably reached the point of realizing you dropped a wall of text saying:

    -current raid size solves meta slave (doesnt)
    -people liked it better but they liked it for this reason (lol)
    -you have syndrome cap stone (the reach)

  16. #196
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    10,787
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    I've been playing on and off for almost 19 years now and I'm fairly convinced they've arbitrarily rigged it and made it a hassle to let people that are willing to push past all the bullshit feel superior. It maybe sounds weird, but I really do think it's catered toward the superiority complex demographic. Just be willing to waste a lot of your time and you'll get past the arbitrary bullshit that filters out most people and you get to feel superior to them and get your fix.
    I don't think it's necessarily something they are aiming for, but rather a consequence of Ion (and probably other high level devs as well) being a very "settled in his ways" kind of guy, who tends to repeat a lot of mistakes from the past just because "it has always been like that". He and his team evidently don't realise that the core playerbase of WoW is more than 30, maybe even 40 years old, so the majority of them just doesn't have the time or patience to put up with all the bullshit attached to raiding. Despite the claim of " raiding being more accessible than ever", the amount of unfun things required for raiding has stayed more or less the same since @#%&ing Vanilla. Even for LFR, aka the "tourist mode", you need to spend nearly an hour in queue - and you get nothing but WQ lvls of gear for your troubles. Top engaging content, you see.

    It also doesn't help that Ion started as a raid designer himself. And as the saying goes, "when the only tool you know well is a hammer, all the problems start to look like nails".
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkeywing View Post
    Meta slaving in 10m mythic raiding will be much more severe. The spots are very restricted and there's much more pressure in a mythic guild than a m+ team. It will not be any easier, m+ already demonstrated that hardcore meta slaving isn't a positive.

    The 10m you lot are remembering will not be the same 10m today considering the current state of the community.
    What do you prefer? Not raiding at all mythic because you don't have 20 ppl or the issue of meta slaving as you call it (that tbh will only happen for wannabe guilds).

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Low Hanging Fruit View Post
    I'm sorry your upset and your feelings are valid. If the meta is so dominate its a class balance issue and not a raid size one. I see Max make videos were he says you can't bring a hunter to raid for this and that even with 20. So that problem isn't solved by it being 20 or 10 but by making sure class design is correct. Of course you can argue world first problem here but the same thing can be said about its a 30 key problem.
    No amount of class balance can solve meta dominance when the spots are that tight. The entire class design structure would need to be revamped. Not just raid buffs, but also things like gateway and healthstones need to be reviewed if 10m mythic becomes the dominant mode (unless you're fine with warlock being an auto pick with 6 dps slots at best). While restructering class design is not impossible, it would be a huge undertaking just to accommodate a smaller raid size for only mythic raiding. Is that really worth it?

    These are not just world first or 30 key problems. The smaller the size gets the more important and impactful your raid composition becomes as each individual carries greater weight. Having an off-meta class in such a comp will relatively weigh you down a lot more. Considering the pressure in mythic raiding to perform (and this pressure exceeds far beyond world first) meta selections will be a major issue, far worse than in m+ currently because that mode has relatively lenient group bonding and there isn't as much on the line in comparison.

    The m+ meta situation is demonstrating how big of a problem it can be in smaller group content. You cannot ignore that. These issues will be even greater in organised mythic raiding if the mode is brought down to 10. This is in fact the best argument against 10m mythic right now. The game & community changed. Arguing in favour of 10m along the lines of outdated parameters is foolish.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Loveliest View Post
    What do you prefer? Not raiding at all mythic because you don't have 20 ppl or the issue of meta slaving as you call it (that tbh will only happen for wannabe guilds).
    This is just patently false. Meta-slaving will absolutely happen. It happened when 10M Heroic was a thing and there's absolutely no reason to believe it won't happen again. The main difference between the game now and when 10M Heroic raiding was a thing is that the game has moved away from homogenization. This means it'll be even worse this time around.

    If you want 10M Heroic raiding just wait a few months for Cataclysm Classic.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkeywing View Post
    No amount of class balance can solve meta dominance when the spots are that tight. The entire class design structure would need to be revamped. Not just raid buffs, but also things like gateway and healthstones need to be reviewed if 10m mythic becomes the dominant mode (unless you're fine with warlock being an auto pick with 6 dps slots at best). While restructering class design is not impossible, it would be a huge undertaking just to accommodate a smaller raid size for only mythic raiding. Is that really worth it?

    These are not just world first or 30 key problems. The smaller the size gets the more important and impactful your raid composition becomes as each individual carries greater weight. Having an off-meta class in such a comp will relatively weigh you down a lot more. Considering the pressure in mythic raiding to perform (and this pressure exceeds far beyond world first) meta selections will be a major issue, far worse than in m+ currently because that mode has relatively lenient group bonding and there isn't as much on the line in comparison.

    The m+ meta situation is demonstrating how big of a problem it can be in smaller group content. You cannot ignore that. These issues will be even greater in organised mythic raiding if the mode is brought down to 10. This is in fact the best argument against 10m mythic right now. The game & community changed. Arguing in favour of 10m along the lines of outdated parameters is foolish.
    That was a lot of words to say something against something that actually already worked in the past. Its not some what if here, it worked, it worked well, and when it went away the raiding scene just slowly started to doddle down as they focused on trying to make raids great for like 5 guilds in a world race situation and then like another 100 in the whole of the game.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •