Are raids becoming less popular?

[AudibleEscalation]

the last time i raided was castle nathria. it was a group of middle-aged gamers. the big problem was that people didnt have computers good enough to run wow in a raid setting with good fps so their reaction was too slow. as ive said for years, the graphics requirements are WAY too high. if they released a version of wow that could raid on a chromebook, subs would jump to 10 million off that alone. but blizz is an idiot company and wont listen to me.

Are you saying unemployment is an issue in WoW raid progression?

Surely a normal middle-aged gamer has enough disposable income to stroll into BestBuy to upgrade their computers pretty much at will?
We're not talking about young students playing from dorm rooms or from their parents basement here. These should be people with jobs and income?

Have you considered that maybe you were just simply playing with complete bedshitters who just didn't have the awareness to move out of crap in time?

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In my opinion most long form games are over in general. Look at the massive drop offs for any continued online experience and they all fall off a cliff once the " content " is beaten or people have their fill of it and will likely come back whenever a new patch / DLC is offered. This is why my entire ideology has changed regarding MMOs and to a lesser extent online gaming in general. Is it annoying to apply to different guilds every season? Sure but its less of a headache then dealing with replaying the content i have beaten for months on end with no real changes happening in the meantime ( my last WoW day played was in June before the whole Aug evoker fiasco ).

Raids are fine and will always be fine since they will always take someone who can write a solid application and perform in the higher percentile so what do i have to lose? Everything is almost cross realm ( yay to cross realm trading ) and no downsides. Embrace the idea that no game is your singular game and you will be happier for it.

This is exactly my feelings about this as well.

Haven't been playing since June.
Unsubbed and let my 6-month plan run out.
Looking forward to re-subbing (monthly only this time) and playing the raid and some keys when 10.2 comes out in few months and unsubbing again when done and nothing is happening.

In the meantime, I've been playing a lot of other fun games.

I like this direction very much.
It's a bit like all streaming TV services - sub for a month, watch the serie you wanted to see, then unsub until Season 2 comes out.

[jeezusisacasual]

Are you saying unemployment is an issue in WoW raid progression?

Surely a normal middle-aged gamer has enough disposable income to stroll into BestBuy to upgrade their computers pretty much at will?
We're not talking about young students playing from dorm rooms or from their parents basement here. These should be people with jobs and income?

Have you considered that maybe you were just simply playing with complete bedshitters who just didn't have the awareness to move out of crap in time?

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This is exactly my feelings about this as well.

Haven't been playing since June.
Unsubbed and let my 6-month plan run out.
Looking forward to re-subbing (monthly only this time) and playing the raid and some keys when 10.2 comes out in few months and unsubbing again when done and nothing is happening.

In the meantime, I've been playing a lot of other fun games.

I like this direction very much.
It's a bit like all streaming TV services - sub for a month, watch the serie you wanted to see, then unsub until Season 2 comes out.

That's the exact way i treat online games in general. Get my fill which in the WoW sense is KSH and AoTC which will done within the first month to 6 weeks which is TREMENDOUS value since i care less for anything else in the game since none of it provides anything towards my own personal goals.

What mystery is in the game now to keep that wonder? Every spec is figured out before they release, every boss is figured out before it is released minus the final encounter each raid, every route is done before the dungeon is released. Youtube nixed that wonder and it will never go back. Real ID has allowed me to run content with my mates so again no downside to moving either.

[lolskillzz]

raids havent been fun or remotely worth since mop, even then they were meh post ToT

[Skylarking]

Mythic raiding really needs an overhaul at this stage. 20 people is far too much in a raiding scene that seems to be dwindling tier by tier.

[Forsedar]

Mythic raiding really needs an overhaul at this stage. 20 people is far too much in a raiding scene that seems to be dwindling tier by tier.

This.

We have statistics showing participation rates across raid tiers, and it continuously gets worse and worse -- currently at an all-time low. Why is that? Raiding is not accessible.

The WoW playerbase is not growing in the way that it had a decade ago. Each expansion is a "call to arms", so to speak, for the adventurers that lived and breathed WoW growing up. We always return, don't we? That's the playerbase: returning players. We are getting older. We are getting more demanding jobs, getting married, starting families (or traveling instead). Our lives are becoming busier, while the game... still tries to make everything a chore.

Raiding is a chore. Mythic Raiding is a chore.

Prepping for raids, spending 3-4 hours a night - several times a week - raiding, grinding gear for raids, etc... we don't have the time and commitment like we used to. WoW is not attracting new players to grow with the game in an impactful way. The playerbase is getting older and older.

This does not take into account how exhausting managing a Mythic Raiding guild is. Managing the bench. Managing the bank. Managing internal drama. Managing recruitment. It's a job; a job on top of all other hats we where in our daily lives (father, mother, friend, punching bag, etc). It is much too exhausting to ensure that a 20-man static raid group with a moving bench is raid ready and consistently ready. Who has time for that?

Instead: you can log in, do some dailies, push through some Mythic+ dungeons, and then sign-off. Nothing requiring you to be online for 3-4 hours straight with zero interruptions. You can run Mythic+ dungeons for great gear, get some bosses killed, and log off. It's a better alternative, and greatly plays into the fact that 20-man raiding is too painful now.

[deenman]

the last time i raided was castle nathria. it was a group of middle-aged gamers. the big problem was that people didnt have computers good enough to run wow in a raid setting with good fps so their reaction was too slow. as ive said for years, the graphics requirements are WAY too high. if they released a version of wow that could raid on a chromebook, subs would jump to 10 million off that alone. but blizz is an idiot company and wont listen to me.

are you joking?my old 970 could run raids at a stable 60 fps with setting lowered until i upgraded last year,thats a dirt cheap card,way better cards these days cheaper than what i payed for it in 2015

[vian]

Can't be bothered finding people anymore, so CBA.


And raising on a schedule is a nightmare to me personally.

[Urti]

I can only speak for myself personally, but yes. Raiding is absolutely less popular now. I stopped around legion, with occasional dips back during BfA. I pretty much abandoned the game entirely during SL, but DF has brought me back, at least for solo play.

The main reason I personally quit raiding or dungeons had zero to do with Blizz or the game itself. It was entirely due to the playerbase. 1000% my least favorite part of WoW are the toxic players.

[MidnyteTV]

It seems to me that due to the fact that the fan base has grown, and the game has become more casual over such a period of time, people began to rely more on themselves, rather than on their teammates, and raids became less interesting, because interaction of 10+ players is needed, for which you need to spend a lot of nerves

Pretty much this. After awhile, dealing with the same old drama in guilds gets old. Instead of exploring the world and solving problems (bosses) with a group, it became a more self-centered experience.

[Chickat]

Yes, but not because people dislike them. Because you get nearly the same gear much easier and honestly faster than you would in a raid.

I dont know what the solution is. Maybe Make Heroic and Mythic higher item level period. M+ would then still be good for like 90% of the player base but they would be encouraged to actually raid.

Or offer a lot of cosmetics and cool stuff in raids.

Maybe if housing becomes a thing every raid boss can drop 2-4 unique housing items that only come from the raid with like a 25% chance to drop once a week. So on average you would need to do each boss 12-20 times before you have everything.

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raids havent been fun or remotely worth since mop, even then they were meh post ToT

Eh, I would say the absolute peak of raiding was SoO when they first added flex raiding but before M+ was a thing. I feel like almost everyone but the ultra casuals at least dipped into Normal a few times during SoO.

[MidnyteTV]

This.

We have statistics showing participation rates across raid tiers, and it continuously gets worse and worse -- currently at an all-time low. Why is that? Raiding is not accessible.

The WoW playerbase is not growing in the way that it had a decade ago. Each expansion is a "call to arms", so to speak, for the adventurers that lived and breathed WoW growing up. We always return, don't we? That's the playerbase: returning players. We are getting older. We are getting more demanding jobs, getting married, starting families (or traveling instead). Our lives are becoming busier, while the game... still tries to make everything a chore.

Raiding is a chore. Mythic Raiding is a chore.

Prepping for raids, spending 3-4 hours a night - several times a week - raiding, grinding gear for raids, etc... we don't have the time and commitment like we used to. WoW is not attracting new players to grow with the game in an impactful way. The playerbase is getting older and older.

This does not take into account how exhausting managing a Mythic Raiding guild is. Managing the bench. Managing the bank. Managing internal drama. Managing recruitment. It's a job; a job on top of all other hats we where in our daily lives (father, mother, friend, punching bag, etc). It is much too exhausting to ensure that a 20-man static raid group with a moving bench is raid ready and consistently ready. Who has time for that?

Instead: you can log in, do some dailies, push through some Mythic+ dungeons, and then sign-off. Nothing requiring you to be online for 3-4 hours straight with zero interruptions. You can run Mythic+ dungeons for great gear, get some bosses killed, and log off. It's a better alternative, and greatly plays into the fact that 20-man raiding is too painful now.

Gunna have to agree with you. Mythic raiding right now is for the true hardcore fans of raiding. If I didn't love raiding so much, all I'd have to do is log in, do some keys, and I'd have the same gear as mythic raiders (minus some trinkets).

[NoClueWhatToDo]

World of Warcraft raiding, yes. Raiding in WoW has become a chore and fights have become much harder over the years.

Final Fantasy raiding is much more superior.

- No trash
- No running back after death
- No buffs. Food buff persists through death.
- No wasting your time. If you're in a WoW raiding guild that raids say 3 hours. Maybe an 1 hour of that time is running back from dying, killing trash, ECT ECT. In FF you're pulling the boss non-stop for those 3 hours.
- Bosses are more puzzle solving than RNG. Everyone will have something important to do for each mechanic.
- Don't need 50 million addons and weakauras
- Bosses are tested thoroughly by an in-house raiding group that actually plays the game. Very little bugs and fights are rarely over tuned.
- No lame boss weekly lockout. Only weekly lockout is loot. If I killed a boss already and my friend wants help, I can join their group and help them.
- Can clear an entire tier with PUGs. When I was playing, I would clear the entire savage tier with PUGs within the first two weeks.
- Savage raids can be cleared by all skill level players. Of course the better skilled you are the faster you clear, but nonetheless anyone can clear savage regardless your skill level.

If you want super hard raids in Final Fantasy, they have Ultimate raids which are these epic 15-20 minute long fights that reward cool weapon skins.

[Kallisto]

You seem very hung up on the idea that times have changes, but ignore that the game has changed.

Game in Vanilla: Plod through easy as fuck open world. Plod through dungeons to get gear. Plod through raids to get better gear.
Game now: Plod through easy as fuck open world. Plod through dungeons to get gear, if you want plod through more difficult dungeons for better gear. Plod through raids to get gear or plod through harder raids for better gear if you want.

Yes totally a major change that's like going from SMB1 to FIFA 2020. When in reality the change in wow is less than SMB1 and SMB lost levels.

[NineSpine]

Game in Vanilla: Plod through easy as fuck open world. Plod through dungeons to get gear. Plod through raids to get better gear.
Game now: Plod through easy as fuck open world. Plod through dungeons to get gear, if you want plod through more difficult dungeons for better gear. Plod through raids to get gear or plod through harder raids for better gear if you want.

Yes totally a major change that's like going from SMB1 to FIFA 2020. When in reality the change in wow is less than SMB1 and SMB lost levels.

Wow, I didn't realize until this post that WoW and Destiny were basically the same game because they have a world, dungeons, and raids.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Weird implicit assumption that raids becoming less popular is bad or undesirable!

Forcing (or even strongly incentivizing) people to do stuff they don't want to do seems misguided. Thankfully they've made a lot of other activities more rewarding over the years.

Just get some old raid buddies and do dungeons instead. Less time and you can all easily take breaks between seasons

[Mojo03]

I quit in Wrath after raiding in vanilla through Lich King (server first)

It had stopped being interesting long before that for me. It's got cool elements and the novelty of killing bosses with tons of other people is fun, but it's such a fucking hassle, time drain, and more tedious than fun the way they've set it up IMO.

I've dipped my toes in here with raiding since Wrath, I usually at least do LFR of a tier, but LFR is mind numbingly boring, the normal/heroic pick up group experience is a pain in the ass in many ways, and most guilds want you locked into a core group that runs specific times 2-3 nights a week. The options suck.

FF14 does it better by letting you que for 1 boss with no trash. And WOW doesn't need to do that exactly, but it could very easily create an experience that serves the vast majority significantly better than now.

I've been playing on and off for almost 19 years now and I'm fairly convinced they've arbitrarily rigged it and made it a hassle to let people that are willing to push past all the bullshit feel superior. It maybe sounds weird, but I really do think it's catered toward the superiority complex demographic. Just be willing to waste a lot of your time and you'll get past the arbitrary bullshit that filters out most people and you get to feel superior to them and get your fix.

[Pinksocking]

bring back 10 man raids, easier / better way to find guilds etc

[Donkeywing]

bring back 10 man raids, easier / better way to find guilds etc

Meta slaving in 10m mythic raiding will be much more severe. The spots are very restricted and there's much more pressure in a mythic guild than a m+ team. It will not be any easier, m+ already demonstrated that hardcore meta slaving isn't a positive.

The 10m you lot are remembering will not be the same 10m today considering the current state of the community.

[Gaidax]

I don't really have the data, but as far as feels go - Mythic raiding is becoming more and more pointless.

[trapmaster]

can we like... make raid..... like............

Raid heroic+ or raid mythic+ something? Something something u know and yah rewarding