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  1. #21
    evoker, build spend
    warlock build spend
    mage spend regen regen spend regen spend
    Druid build spend build spend
    Paladin build spend.

    Theyre all just as "brainless" as bm

    Especially when you come out with

    I'm not understanding these nerfs? Is blizzard throwing darts to dartboard for its classes buff/nerf? Frost dk spec is beyond abysmal damage. Okay


    "
    Last edited by [Apok]; 2023-04-16 at 07:49 PM.

  2. #22
    evoker, build spend
    warlock build spend
    mage spend regen regen spend regen spend
    Druid build spend build spend
    Paladin build spend.

    Theyre all just as "brainless" as bm
    You guys are all taking the piss. You're describing general dps mechanics but none of you consider spec specific (mechanical) difficulty.

    BM turned into an easy, slow spec and you can hardly fail. Even if you fail the dps penalty is mild, you can litteraly write it off as an rng variance in most cases, unless you do it consistently. When you fail with one of the other specs you can take spectacular, massive dps penalties - and they don't have insane pet dmg to fall back on.

    Now that's not to say you can't excel at BM, you definitely can, but let's get real here for a second. Considering bm equally as difficult as other specs is delusional. It's quite shocking this is even up for debate today.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by nbk2011 View Post
    It's pretty obvious why they nerfed it, 90% of hunters are BM right now and why is that? There used to be some MM hunters but now everyone rerolled to BM due to how strong and versatile they are in ST and multi target as well. Just run an heroic voti Pug and you'll see BM hunters topping charts pretty consistently. The bow doesn't even matter anymore, the buffs they received were over tuned and now they're bringing it down a notch.

    Top 100 parse for BM hunters on Terros are ALL over 100k (some slightly below) while MM has only 2 parses doing 100k and the rest are average 85k. This is your answer.
    If BM out performed the other specs by half a percent then all the top players would play BM. The difference you have used as "evidence" is a skill difference. Not a spec difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkeywing View Post
    You guys are all taking the piss. You're describing general dps mechanics but none of you consider spec specific (mechanical) difficulty.
    It's World of Warcraft, it's literally tailor-made for casual players. No DPS spec has actually been difficult since around Cataclysm, and even that's pushing the definition.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pengalor View Post
    It's World of Warcraft, it's literally tailor-made for casual players. No DPS spec has actually been difficult since around Cataclysm, and even that's pushing the definition.
    WW monk, feral druid, affliction lock, unholy dk. Just a few specs where you need to know wtf you're doing or you will do trash dps.

    So most definitely NO, not all dps specs in the game are easy to play. You got some brain dead specs like bm hunter, destro lock (even easier than BM), frost dk, fire mage. Some nicely balanced specs like arms and fury warriors, ret pala, mm hunter, demo lock, frost mage, shadow priest (although too spammy and whack-a-mole-ey), elemental shaman. And then you got stupid hard to play specs like survival hunter, ww monk, feral druid, enhancement shaman, unholy dk, affliction lock.

    Unsurprisingly, the harder specs are also the least popular.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynical Asshole View Post
    you got stupid hard to play specs like survival hunter
    e

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    Hey.

    I play M+ and i don't have the Raz bow, Could we please stop nerfing the class based on the 0.1% of players ?

    BM is not that great outside of the raid or without the special bow.
    The bow was nerfed a while back and is now not even close to the reason why BM is strong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pengalor View Post
    It's World of Warcraft, it's literally tailor-made for casual players. No DPS spec has actually been difficult since around Cataclysm, and even that's pushing the definition.
    The level of ignorance on display here is laughable. You're either too bad to play on a level where nuance matters or you are trolling. Are some specs easier than others? Sure. But the skill ceiling is a lot higher today than it was during Cata. We even have numbers to back this up. Head over to warcraftlogs and look at the variance between different players performance. The spectrum is huge. Item level taken in to account of course. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

    Just another anecdotal thing to add here is that I played on a server first level back during Cata and I have famed two out of the 4 most recent tiers. So, I'm telling you... Not only were the specs simpler during Cata but the environment where you needed to play these specs allowed for more mistakes since boss mechanics and content in general was a lot easier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    they have already nerfed away that buff.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is exactly what my thread is about tho.

    All you care about is your 0.1% raid team performance.

    Stop balancing classes around that.
    The bow is not a factor anymore. The effect does not work on your pets. Nerfs to BM were warranted.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynical Asshole View Post
    You got some brain dead specs like bm hunter, destro lock (even easier than BM)
    That's objectively incorrect for so many reasons, unless you only consider mass aoe in which case destruction is rather easy, but even in m+ mass aoe is usually less than 33% of effective combat time. If we're talking medium aoe you have to consider whether havoc is better at all times (or even ST). In terms of ST there are a fuckton of reasons why destruction is way harder, but I cba to talk about every aspect of destruction warlock. Madness of azj'aqir vs frenzy & Soul fire stand out. You need to fully understand how haste works in theory and practice considering its value and effects for destruction. Most ppl out there don't even have a fucking clue how haste works.

    Only reason I pick on this is because you're not the first one to say this.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynical Asshole View Post
    WW monk, feral druid, affliction lock, unholy dk. Just a few specs where you need to know wtf you're doing or you will do trash dps.
    Eh... I switched to feral FROM BM for S2. And, difficulty-wise, it is not more difficult to play feral. Keep your bleeds active, bite on 5cp when rip isn't close to falling off. Even aoe is easy. So I'm really wondering where this imagined difficulty increase is. If anything, with less gear, I do more damage than I did on my BM while being able to survive much easier.

    I'm not saying BM is more difficult. I'm not saying it is less. I'm saying there's a difference in how much one can squeeze out (even with my BM parsing in the 95-100 range for my item level) in higher keys (20-21) and raids as BM with more effort. I do far less "effort" as feral and achieve more results. It shouldn't be that way.

    I've played feral from vanilla on Dragonblight with just 2 others on the server at max level till about mid Cata. Switched to rogue. Stayed there till end of Legion and went warlock. Stayed warlock from that till S2 SL. Switched to BM and stayed there until now. I'm going back to kitty. Not because it is the best, it's not. But, because with less effort, I achieve the same or better results as I did with BM.

    That's not okay.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakut View Post
    Eh... I switched to feral FROM BM for S2. And, difficulty-wise, it is not more difficult to play feral.
    If you want to argue this then perhaps don't flood your post with your own subjective experiences. I know the guy you quoted didn't do much himself, but still. It's annoying af to read and you should be able to be a lot more objective if you feel so strongly about it. No one cares which specs you played.

  11. #31
    BM has more to it with frenzy management than specs like Fury, Frost or Devoker.

  12. #32
    It's about being able to do full dps while moving, has little to do with rotation complexity.

    The modern game makes casters move almost constantly in dungeons.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    It's about being able to do full dps while moving, has little to do with rotation complexity.
    There are nearly no fights or dungeons requiring 100% mobility, being able to do full dps on the move when it's relevant is a dps strength. If bm itself is supposed to be balanced negatively around it, then what's the point of having that dps strength in the first place?

    There's another issue behind that superficial layer. In order to balance correctly you would need to qualify the existing mobility of the caster specs. BM has 100% mobility dps, so what's the % of mobility of the casters specs? 60%? 75%? Not only is it not zero, it's different for each caster spec. Therefore to balance it appropriately, if you even want to do that, is to target the specs with the lowest dps mobility. However that could be irrespective of BM's performance assuming ranged vs melee is also balanced. It's not that simple.

  14. #34
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    Nerfed all the way to the bottom of the chart. Awesome...

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkeywing View Post
    There are nearly no fights or dungeons requiring 100% mobility, being able to do full dps on the move when it's relevant is a dps strength. If bm itself is supposed to be balanced negatively around it, then what's the point of having that dps strength in the first place?

    There's another issue behind that superficial layer. In order to balance correctly you would need to qualify the existing mobility of the caster specs. BM has 100% mobility dps, so what's the % of mobility of the casters specs? 60%? 75%? Not only is it not zero, it's different for each caster spec. Therefore to balance it appropriately, if you even want to do that, is to target the specs with the lowest dps mobility. However that could be irrespective of BM's performance assuming ranged vs melee is also balanced. It's not that simple.
    I don't think you can really Factor it in with balance for those reasons and others, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't a significant advantage. It's a spec that never has to learn one of the most difficult skills of ranged dps, maximizing uptime.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakut View Post
    Eh... I switched to feral FROM BM for S2. And, difficulty-wise, it is not more difficult to play feral. Keep your bleeds active, bite on 5cp when rip isn't close to falling off. Even aoe is easy. So I'm really wondering where this imagined difficulty increase is. If anything, with less gear, I do more damage than I did on my BM while being able to survive much easier.

    I'm not saying BM is more difficult. I'm not saying it is less. I'm saying there's a difference in how much one can squeeze out (even with my BM parsing in the 95-100 range for my item level) in higher keys (20-21) and raids as BM with more effort. I do far less "effort" as feral and achieve more results. It shouldn't be that way.

    I've played feral from vanilla on Dragonblight with just 2 others on the server at max level till about mid Cata. Switched to rogue. Stayed there till end of Legion and went warlock. Stayed warlock from that till S2 SL. Switched to BM and stayed there until now. I'm going back to kitty. Not because it is the best, it's not. But, because with less effort, I achieve the same or better results as I did with BM.

    That's not okay.
    People love to perpetuate memes and steretypes when it fits their arguments.

    The only advantage bm has over other casters is it's mobility, and for that they basically have no utility.

    If they nerf their dps to compensate for movement, they need to add other reasons to bring a hunter other than damage

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    It's about being able to do full dps while moving, has little to do with rotation complexity.

    The modern game makes casters move almost constantly in dungeons.
    It's weird that that's an argument when constant movement is absolutely not necessary. If it was then casters would be unplayable. There is consistent requirement for small bursts of movement, but there is nowhere that constant movement is required or encouraged.

    If it was casters couldnt parse above tanks.

    Also there's way too much shit where being able to run means nothing for living. It's why the only time you see BM in MDI is for misdirect/pet shenanigans, and even then they dont have the numbers.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by BreakerOfWills View Post
    It's weird that that's an argument when constant movement is absolutely not necessary. If it was then casters would be unplayable. There is consistent requirement for small bursts of movement, but there is nowhere that constant movement is required or encouraged.

    If it was casters couldnt parse above tanks.

    Also there's way too much shit where being able to run means nothing for living. It's why the only time you see BM in MDI is for misdirect/pet shenanigans, and even then they dont have the numbers.
    But some movement is necessary. I mean, modern dungeons (and raids) are filled with swirlies everywhere. BM hunters do not have to learn the skill of maximizing dps while moving, which is why it will probably always have a higher skill floor than other ranged unless the rotation was made insane, which is unlikely given the audience for the spec.

    You can debate the degree % it matters, but it is fact that having 100% uptime is an advantage over all other casters. Does that mean the spec is inherently busted? Of course not!

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by [Apok] View Post
    The only advantage bm has over other casters is it's mobility, and for that they basically have no utility.

    If they nerf their dps to compensate for movement, they need to add other reasons to bring a hunter other than damage
    Well, yes and no. It's a bit disingenuous to say they basically have no utility. The spec itself does not offer additional or different utility than say marksman or survival as the utility is more or less on the class side of talents. All have access to binding shot (which definitely gets used), tar trap, ice trap, silencing shot, tranq shot, and hero/bloodlust. (I'm intentionally leaving sentinel owl out here since I have yet to see any other hunter in keys - including my own - ever take it for more than a meme.)

    The survival of a hunter, as noted by many healers I've run with (not just my bm hunter) is pretty low to the point of many saying they're squishy (including both a really high parsing resto druid and a pretty decent resto shaman) vs a lot of other specs. Something about lowering BM's damage without unique utility (no, hero doesn't count as MM and Survival can, albeit inconveniently, pull out a pet to do the same thing) or improved survival in a PvE context is just not sitting well.

    I suspect, at the moment, based on raid parses anyway, that BM is quite popular to play. In keys, though, it is nearly the opposite with a lot of groups outright rejecting BM hunters from keys. I got lucky, my key group will take me regardless of the spec I play because we know and trust each other to do things right. That's not the case for a lot of other folks.

    For me, the easiest path was just simply switching to a class and spec they're more or less ignoring for next season. That class is in a better spot for keys. I might have slightly lower single target (a little less than 1% of a drop which is fine) vs BM, but my aoe and survival are substantially better, and I also offer a lot of utility.
    Last edited by Yakut; 2023-04-21 at 07:07 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashana Darkmoon View Post
    BM hunters do not have to learn the skill of maximizing dps while moving, which is why it will probably always have a higher skill floor than other ranged unless the rotation was made insane
    I think we circle back to dps difficulty. I do agree there's a fundamental problem if you consider all factors. It's hard to justify a spec that can freely move with an extraordinary ease of rotation, having potential to top damage. BM's dps strengths might be too strong considering its difficulty of execution. If the rotation was hard then it would be more acceptable, we have seen versions of bm that were a lot more difficult than this. That's my opinion anyway. However, to state that BM should be negatively balanced just because of movement advantage is superficial.
    Last edited by Donkeywing; 2023-04-21 at 07:34 PM.

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