The longevity of WoW going forward.

[bloodykiller86]

So what do we gain by making them raid if they hate it so much that they'd rather do world content?

this is the game. you want higher gear? do PvP, M+, Raiding. If you like none of it do world content and be content that you will only get gear that goes up to a certain ilvl, you wont need anything higher anyways since you're not doing any of the pillars of WoW to begin with.

Now if you want to go for something else world content could be improved a ton to make such a thing possible but with that difficulty will be introduced. Im thinking 1 to 2 huge world bosses that have actual mechanics and only so many people can queue into etc etc. so they'll have chances at higher gear at a much slower pace

[NineSpine]

this is the game. you want higher gear? do PvP, M+, Raiding. If you like none of it do world content and be content that you will only get gear that goes up to a certain ilvl, you wont need anything higher anyways since you're not doing any of the pillars of WoW to begin with.

"The game works this way" is not a response to "The game should be a different way". That's like if I said "We should paint this room blue" and you just started shouting "BUT IT'S RED!"

Now if you want to go for something else world content could be improved a ton to make such a thing possible but with that difficulty will be introduced. Im thinking 1 to 2 huge world bosses that have actual mechanics and only so many people can queue into etc etc. so they'll have chances at higher gear at a much slower pace

This weird fixation on "difficulty" is the problem. I don't think I have ever heard a worse idea than artificially gating content behind a queue to slow people down. This is a video game. It's about having fun. You seem to have forgotten that because your concerns are all about how to punish and throttle having a good time.

[bloodykiller86]

"The game works this way" is not a response to "The game should be a different way". That's like if I said "We should paint this room blue" and you just started shouting "BUT IT'S RED!"



This weird fixation on "difficulty" is the problem. I don't think I have ever heard a worse idea than artificially gating content behind a queue to slow people down. This is a video game. It's about having fun. You seem to have forgotten that because your concerns are all about how to punish and throttle having a good time.

you have an assumption that difficulty isn't fun. I find how easy the current raid is on normal and heroic a joke. i can basically half pay attention all night until Sarkareth on heroic. that's terrible and not fun at all.

[NineSpine]

you have an assumption that difficulty isn't fun.

I never said that. What a weird accusation.

I find how easy the current raid is on normal and heroic a joke. i can basically half pay attention all night until Sarkareth on heroic. that's terrible and not fun at all.

I have no idea what you think you are contributing to the discussion by telling me what your personal preferences are for content we aren't talking about.

[Miffinat0r]

WoW will be around longer than many of us. EQ is still going on; WoW had a bigger base and will continue to do the same.

[Zodiark]

many of the things you name, call for a complete overhall of the currect game paly engine.

The looks parts got highlighted because you talked mostly/only about that.

I agree a new updated stuff should help. But if you play wow you would see they are doing that ( new systems like dragonflying, old/new talent tree's, update graphics etc)

I know they are. I commend them. BUT some of the main points I mentioned which aren't tied to looks are sill mired in antiquity. Go level up through an old zone some years ago, go revisit said zone and nothing has changed. I want to feel living world progress. I want to feel like things are happening even when I'm not looking. SO when I go back or visit with a new / different character I can feel like this is like a microcosm of the real world and NPC's have motivations. Rebuild a burnt down farm, the broken wall, etc.

[oathy]

This is the least I've played wow.
the concerns I had in beta sadly came true in retail.
Story is just so weak we know the issues in SL but at least it had a story.
its like every new patch they add another new mob and a few things.

I do feel sad about it because I love the game but this expansion really is now the weakest for me personally

[baskev]

I know they are. I commend them. BUT some of the main points I mentioned which aren't tied to looks are sill mired in antiquity. Go level up through an old zone some years ago, go revisit said zone and nothing has changed. I want to feel living world progress. I want to feel like things are happening even when I'm not looking. SO when I go back or visit with a new / different character I can feel like this is like a microcosm of the real world and NPC's have motivations. Rebuild a burnt down farm, the broken wall, etc.

yes, and i want a three way with margot robbie and mb jordan ( or insert who ever you like). aint going to happen.

thank you for clearifying your point of view.

I agree, it needs more feeling towards progress in the world.
But again, i point to other mmo's who do not update the world map at all (ever!). While wow has done that. Hell some zones have more then 2 versions of it. tirisfallglades per example. it has so many versions.

Could they update it? yeah, but the problem is time + money + how much we play those zones. They can be very empty even on the bigger servers.

I think your plan would work if they where smart and also do events like forbidden reach in those zones. So for each new area of content in a expansion, you do also 1 in the old zones. So you can update the zones on those bases. And then 1 out of x expansion also to take place there and your wish to see progress in the world could happen.

But agian, WoW is big, cost time to fix it and money etc etc. its not that easy.
But like arathi highlands is a good example.
But still its a lot of things. pandaria, northrend, EK, KAL, dreanor, argus, outland, broken isle, kul tiras, zandalar.
Even if we start at the oldest. by the time you are at the end, you can start again.

[Hold]

I know they are. I commend them. BUT some of the main points I mentioned which aren't tied to looks are sill mired in antiquity. Go level up through an old zone some years ago, go revisit said zone and nothing has changed. I want to feel living world progress. I want to feel like things are happening even when I'm not looking. SO when I go back or visit with a new / different character I can feel like this is like a microcosm of the real world and NPC's have motivations. Rebuild a burnt down farm, the broken wall, etc.

The problem is people don't really have a concept of what makes a open world mmo work. You have to look at the most successful one in the genre by leaps and bounds and that is runescape.

The problem is when people say they want an open world mmo they always eventually work themselves into admiting they just want to break the difficulty by giving out free loot or they more or less say they want ot play witcher 3

[Zodiark]

yes, and i want a three way with margot robbie and mb jordan ( or insert who ever you like). aint going to happen.

thank you for clearifying your point of view.

I agree, it needs more feeling towards progress in the world.
But again, i point to other mmo's who do not update the world map at all (ever!). While wow has done that. Hell some zones have more then 2 versions of it. tirisfallglades per example. it has so many versions.

Could they update it? yeah, but the problem is time + money + how much we play those zones. They can be very empty even on the bigger servers.

I think your plan would work if they where smart and also do events like forbidden reach in those zones. So for each new area of content in a expansion, you do also 1 in the old zones. So you can update the zones on those bases. And then 1 out of x expansion also to take place there and your wish to see progress in the world could happen.

But agian, WoW is big, cost time to fix it and money etc etc. its not that easy.
But like arathi highlands is a good example.
But still its a lot of things. pandaria, northrend, EK, KAL, dreanor, argus, outland, broken isle, kul tiras, zandalar.
Even if we start at the oldest. by the time you are at the end, you can start again.

Yeah maybe so but it's ok to start again by the time you get to the end because that would keep things fresh. Maybe if they just came out with an evergreen system to have zones kind of rebuild and change themselves based on some kind of hidden ruleset or something like that.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is people don't really have a concept of what makes a open world mmo work. You have to look at the most successful one in the genre by leaps and bounds and that is runescape.

The problem is when people say they want an open world mmo they always eventually work themselves into admiting they just want to break the difficulty by giving out free loot or they more or less say they want ot play witcher 3

Well let me start off by saying grats on your first 9 posts as of this writing and welcome to the MMO-Champion community. (even is this is a new account or something welcome back then).

Anyhow Yeah I don't know I just want to log into WoW one day and feel that sense of newness and uniqueness and uncertainty that I don't know exactly what might be going on around the next corner. I personally don't want FREE loot or anything that would break the world I just want a more Dynamic world where things happen randomly. This is part of the reason I always find some joy in playing GW2 from time to time. Even though I know everything is pretty much scripted or something it still has so many random little things and events and different NPC's that pop up in random places that it feels like stuff is going on around me independently of my own actions. That feels more like the real world. Where you know your neighborhood but never know exactly who might be driving by or walking down the road or what new construction project might pop up down the street or what accident or arrest might happen, etc, etc.

[WoWenjoyer]

Because gearing up is fun.

The amount of people on WoW forums, MMOChampion or r/wow who do not get this is unbelievable. I genuinely feel gaslit when people claim they can not grasp this concept. Why do these people think Diablo was a success? The hot babes? The eh.. story..?

Gearing up is fun.

I also think it is so painfully obvious that the entire success of WoW was built on its power progression.

Getting more powerful is fun.

[Zorachus]

I really do love WoW, been playing for 19 years, and only twice i have I unsubbed, during WoD and Shittylands. My most recent fav expansion was Legion. I was so looking forward to Dragonflight, looked like a breath of fresh air, and away from the bullcrap systems in the last couple of expansions.

But it's hard to explain, I'm just not feeling this expansion, it's comes off as generic, kind of souless, and lame. I log in, and think to myself ok now what? Nothing. Only options are run a M+ or Raid or die. I don't have the time nor care to Raid anymore, and M+ is cool, but they get old quick, same dungeons over and over, with toxic pugs.

Ok so I run an M+ dungeon, and maybe get a better piece of gear. Ok ... so what? And now do that like 50+ more times to get a new set of better gear, for whatever reason. Ok so I'll go from i405 to i425, big frigging deal, that does nothing for me. Gameplay is still the generic boring setup.

WoW has become World-Of-Carrot-On-a-stick-Craft

[NineSpine]

The amount of people on WoW forums, MMOChampion or r/wow who do not get this is unbelievable. I genuinely feel gaslit when people claim they can not grasp this concept. Why do these people think Diablo was a success? The hot babes? The eh.. story..?

Gearing up is fun.

I also think it is so painfully obvious that the entire success of WoW was built on its power progression.

Getting more powerful is fun.

It's pretty wild because at the same time they argue the importance of progression to the activities *they like to do*.

[Kallisto]

WoW has become World-Of-Carrot-On-a-stick-Craft

It always has been. The only difference between now and pre-legion is that there's one more option now.

[Hold]

Yeah maybe so but it's ok to start again by the time you get to the end because that would keep things fresh. Maybe if they just came out with an evergreen system to have zones kind of rebuild and change themselves based on some kind of hidden ruleset or something like that.

- - - Updated - - -



Well let me start off by saying grats on your first 9 posts as of this writing and welcome to the MMO-Champion community. (even is this is a new account or something welcome back then).

Anyhow Yeah I don't know I just want to log into WoW one day and feel that sense of newness and uniqueness and uncertainty that I don't know exactly what might be going on around the next corner. I personally don't want FREE loot or anything that would break the world I just want a more Dynamic world where things happen randomly. This is part of the reason I always find some joy in playing GW2 from time to time. Even though I know everything is pretty much scripted or something it still has so many random little things and events and different NPC's that pop up in random places that it feels like stuff is going on around me independently of my own actions. That feels more like the real world. Where you know your neighborhood but never know exactly who might be driving by or walking down the road or what new construction project might pop up down the street or what accident or arrest might happen, etc, etc.

You want to move on to a new game then... you are never going to have that fresh experience in a game that has been out for almost two decades. GW2 is just as predictable as wow if not more so.

[WoWenjoyer]

I really do love WoW, been playing for 19 years, and only twice i have I unsubbed, during WoD and Shittylands. My most recent fav expansion was Legion. I was so looking forward to Dragonflight, looked like a breath of fresh air, and away from the bullcrap systems in the last couple of expansions.

But it's hard to explain, I'm just not feeling this expansion, it's comes off as generic, kind of souless, and lame. I log in, and think to myself ok now what? Nothing. Only options are run a M+ or Raid or die. I don't have the time nor care to Raid anymore, and M+ is cool, but they get old quick, same dungeons over and over, with toxic pugs.

Ok so I run an M+ dungeon, and maybe get a better piece of gear. Ok ... so what? And now do that like 50+ more times to get a new set of better gear, for whatever reason. Ok so I'll go from i405 to i425, big frigging deal, that does nothing for me. Gameplay is still the generic boring setup.

WoW has become World-Of-Carrot-On-a-stick-Craft

The big problem is the gearing / power progression sucks. No I am not just ´´older´´. I was excited for loot back in BFA when I would get a BiS corruption. I was excited for loot when I played Classic Vanilla WoW. I was excited last year when I played Elden Ring. I was even excited for loot when I played BREATH OF THE WILD 2. A game designed for literal children.

Somehow a vocal minority managed to convince Blizzard that the loot / power progression system should be a boiled-broccoli-gear-treadmill. They managed to convince Blizzard that their content was so good it was worth doing on its own merits. But no, M+ is not fun enough to do the content for the sake of it. Doing 10 +16s to create a single piece of gear? You are having a laugh. 2 drops of loot after an entire dungeon run? Yeah, no. Also I have already run many of these dungeons 100s of times back in Legion and BFA, you know expansions where I would actually get loot from finishing the dungeons. Now I have to do the dungeons a billion times for a slower gear progression where I am experiencing a sort of ´´entfremdung´´ from the gear by getting my upgrades from a dumb weekly vault or tedious crafting upgrades. Slowly drip upgrading my gear with whatever clown currency Blizzard comes up with because our content creating WoW geniuses all begged for deterministic loot.

The reason corruption drops or Classic WoW drops were exciting was because they provided a significant upgrade, which therefore felt meaningful. Blizzard for some reason saw the entire real success of Classic WoW, and their takeaway was that people enjoyed the gearing more... Because it was more rare? Currently the entire system is basically designed about getting tiny incremental increases in gear and power. This does not work.

I don´t wanna turn this thread into a WoW is dying, but S2 of M+ clearly shows massive fatigue in the M+ playerbase. Even worse that Blizzard dungeon design for DF was about making the dungeons as annoying and tedious as possible. Like yeah making every dungeon a stressful SC2 1v1 game, where you never get to relax was a super good idea. So now we have a massive healer / tank shortage, who could possibly have guessed that a unrewarding and miserable experience would have people quit the game?

[lockybalboa]

It'll be difficult for them to attract new players. All they can hope to achieve from now is to retain that small group of hardcore esports/m+/raiding players. And that is their strategy going forward. It's not gonna be a game for the masses like in the past anymore.

[Zorachus]

I'm still subbed to DF but I just need to cancel already, I rarely play WoW anymore, I log in and feel like there's just nothing to do except a big time sink thing like Raiding or a M+10 or so. And I'm rarely interested in doing either.

Sometimes just want a fun thing to do, like going for my Class Mount.

[Glorious Leader]

It's pretty wild because at the same time they argue the importance of progression to the activities *they like to do*.

Of course because its about more than just progression. They have to have a monopoly on player power so they can feel awesome but nobody else should.

[Karreck]

WoW will be around longer than many of us. EQ is still going on; WoW had a bigger base and will continue to do the same.

Hell, Ultima Online is still kicking.