I think making a support class is a recipe for disater.

[Unholyground]

The advantage to a support is that they will have the ability to pump out powerful defensive and offensive buffs as well as buffing the performance of the other roles in doing so. I think it is needed and if successful could add more support to other classes where it makes sense. This also opens up the possibility of a bard spec and other classic support specs from DnD.

[Holdodlig]

I don't know how things will happens as I didn't play older MMOs but I have to agree that adding a new role in a game defined by 20 years of the same trinity can have dire consequences. But if it's not a good addition to the game, they can still change it to a classic dps class. If they don't try the experiment, they'll never add meaningful change at all. So let's see what it gives. Never been a fan of dracthyr anyway. I like to see my gear.

[Teriz]

The advantage to a support is that they will have the ability to pump out powerful defensive and offensive buffs as well as buffing the performance of the other roles in doing so. I think it is needed and if successful could add more support to other classes where it makes sense. This also opens up the possibility of a bard spec and other classic support specs from DnD.

Yeah, I think people are being way too pessimistic. Augmentation has the potential of altering the game in a very positive way.

[StrawberryZebra]

Because you’re reliant on other players to maximize your damage output.

You've just perfectly summed up why I think support specs are a bad idea for multiplayer games..

Having your performance be dependent on others makes for a very inconsistent player experience. If you're grouped up with great players you're going to be adding a ton of value to your group. If two players are dead in your M+ then you're adding progressively less and less as they die. And unlike being a straight DPS class, chances are you won't have the personal DPS to make up for the loss.

It's a great idea in theory but in practice support classes tend to have very little personal agency in multiplayer games. Either they help an already high-performing team pump even harder, or they add barely anything to struggling team. There's almost never a time where the support is the reason for the teams outcome.

This tends to make for a very frustrating experience for the support player. You get both very high highs and very low lows and which happens in any given run is out of your control.

[ZazuuPriest]

The problem with balancing is that the top end guilds are gonna be super good at coordinating and optimizing it, and your average pug won't be. So either it'll be op at the top end, or useless in the middle.

eh i think you underestimate the middle end in this game. Middle end players can get CE. 80% of the player base is low end terrible players 19.5% are middle and 0.5% are top tier players its not an even 33/33/33 split

- - - Updated - - -

You've just perfectly summed up why I think support specs are a bad idea for multiplayer games..

Having your performance be dependent on others makes for a very inconsistent player experience. If you're grouped up with great players you're going to be adding a ton of value to your group. If two players are dead in your M+ then you're adding progressively less and less as they die. And unlike being a straight DPS class, chances are you won't have the personal DPS to make up for the loss.

It's a great idea in theory but in practice support classes tend to have very little personal agency in multiplayer games. Either they help an already high-performing team pump even harder, or they add barely anything to struggling team. There's almost never a time where the support is the reason for the teams outcome.

This tends to make for a very frustrating experience for the support player. You get both very high highs and very low lows and which happens in any given run is out of your control.

lets face it the level most people play this game at how your runs go depend almost entirely on the tank and healer and one person (probably a paladin tank) to get the interupts. People playing a support class should know what theyre getting in to and if they dont they will weed themselves out quickly. Groups of the homies will do great with a support class, pugs maybe not so much but pugging in this game is terrible to being with

[Delekii]

You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?

100% agree. FFXI and to a lesser degree 14 show this - support classes are either utterly mandatory or worthless. A DPS / tank amp allows you to bring a source of lust while amplifying the already absurd delta between top and bottom dps/tank specs, making the best even better relative to the worst.

It's a _really_ bad move to bring in a solitary support soec unless they are planning to leave it underpowered until they make more.

- - - Updated - - -

Weird logic. Basically just fatalism.

It's more balanced now than it has ever been in PvE and has been for some time. There are always outliers, but the difference is nowhere near as vast as in the past.

It is absolutely, unequivocally NOT more balanced than it ever has been. I'm not sure we've had a time where a tank was more dominant than pld is right now, and there are massive dps outliers too.

[Bigbamboozal]

You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?

pppffff haha what? Wotlk demo lock says hello.
/thread

[Biomega]

A DPS / tank amp allows you to bring a source of lust while amplifying the already absurd delta between top and bottom dps/tank specs, making the best even better relative to the worst.

That's really the biggest problem I see in how things currently stand: amplifying existing imbalances because of the inherent differences in how DPS specs operate. Fishing for short windows of high burst damage encourages very specific setups, and there's already a problem of stacking compounding synergistic effects. Imagine something like Demo lock with tier set, Nelth trinket, popping all CDs and getting PI inside of an Amp burst window - the damage gain will be absurd, and incomparably higher than it would be from other, less cooldown-dependent specs. That shifts the relative balance of power even further, and rewards stacking degenerate comps to maximize the synergistic effects. Is that really something Blizz should be encouraging?

[MoanaLisa]

In a game that has as many specs as this one does it seems as if there could be a support spec available without crushing the game into dust. Good guilds will know how to use and optimize a support spec (assuming that its 'support' is viable). Others could learn if they want to. My admitted bias in this is how fondly I remember when shadow priests did decent damage and provided a lot of support for off-healing and mana replacement. That's been ages now but it was a good and interesting time to be playing a shadow priest.

Personally I'm good with a spec that is less about being competitive with other players in a group and more about co-operation.

[melzas]

I haven't looked into augmentation toolkit but if they don't buff other DPS by % of the damage they do and buff with flat damage increase instead then they won't be hard to balance. It will basically be just another DPS spec with a different flavour.

[Echocho]

You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

If you absolutely have to be 100% optimal 100% of the time then yes, but then that's also true for having certain specs doing less damage than others. For the rest of us that don't play the game as if our lives depended on it it's a fun addition.

[Nagarkhan]

Yup.
Not sure how Blizzard spend years listening about perfectly justified complaints about PI and then decide to make PI, the spec.
And no, this isn't some logging / minmaxing thing, it's the fact that in SL PI made the difference between demo warlock being a 1min CD spec where your CDs alligned or an absolute clusterfuck of desync'd cds if you didn't have it. It was like playing two entirely different specs based on how many priests to warlocks we had at any given time.

If you absolutely have to be 100% optimal 100% of the time then yes, but then that's also true for having certain specs doing less damage than others. For the rest of us that don't play the game as if our lives depended on it it's a fun addition.

IT's not "as if our lives depended on it", it's "Mythic difficulty, a difficulty Blizzard support".
We killed Mythic Sylvanas without an int buff because our mage was stuck in a work call, we've killed plenty of other mythic bosses with jank comps.
Then comes Razsageth where it's basicly mandatory to have two evokers.

Support evoker COULD be a fun addition, or it could be something that Blizzard design to be a mandatory addition where none of it's utility is being used in "fun" and novel ways because they've dictated that a mechanic requires it to get past.

I'd legitimately love for more utility stuff to be in the game - I've complained about soulshards becoming a builder-spender resource for a decade at this point because I think they were far more interesting as soulburn spell alterations, but what Blizzard have done over the years with PI and evoker "utility" on Raz in particular fills me with nothing but dread for this specialization.

[Deneios]

I haven't looked into augmentation toolkit but if they don't buff other DPS by % of the damage they do and buff with flat damage increase instead then they won't be hard to balance. It will basically be just another DPS spec with a different flavour.

Have to disagree with that. +% buffs are way easier to scale. Flat dmg buffs have the problem of not following ilvls and stat squishes. If you haven't noticed most of the skills in wow are calculated by attackpower/spellpower x multiplier.

[RobertMugabe]

I think several people are thinking too much into this.
There is no "support" spec. The 3rd evoker spec is just another DPS spec, both officially and in practice too.

This whole thread is pointless ngl.

I do however agree with some other people's opinion when it comes to balance: Like, fuck balance. Balance should never be the reason not to try out new and cool stuff.

[Aggressive]

EVERYTHING is a disaster according to people in these forums. Make another class similar to another class it is a disaster. Make another healer class, then that is a disaster. People have been wanting a necromancer in the game for a while. That is a disaster as well. People been wanting tinker. That is a disaster too. People been asking for Dark Rangers. That is a disaster too. People been wanting High elves in the game. That is a disaster as well. People been asking for so many types of class and people have shot down EVERYTHING.

People who bitch and moan about everything are sad individuals who have no friends. Would hate to be anywhere near them. If you can't find fun in a game then I doubt you can find fun in real life.

[Soulsinger]

Disc priests have been half healer half dps for a LONG time, and yet we havent seen that removed or added to other classes.

I don't know if you've noticed this or not, but they don't really want anyone to play Priests....

[Shadowferal]

I don't know if you've noticed this or not, but they don't really want anyone to play Priests....

Why do you believe that?

[trimble]

In a game that has as many specs as this one does it seems as if there could be a support spec available without crushing the game into dust. Good guilds will know how to use and optimize a support spec (assuming that its 'support' is viable). Others could learn if they want to. My admitted bias in this is how fondly I remember when shadow priests did decent damage and provided a lot of support for off-healing and mana replacement. That's been ages now but it was a good and interesting time to be playing a shadow priest.

Personally I'm good with a spec that is less about being competitive with other players in a group and more about co-operation.

I think the problem is we know the wow community isn't. From tbc onwards this was the community that went from demanding 5 shammans be in the raid for blood lust to reqularly not bringing classes to raid.

I don't see a support spec going over well. Especially with only one being released. If they had done half a dozen it might work better but if they are to be brought for anything they need to be more effiencent then bringing a normal dps to raid. I won't lie I mildly find support classes outside of very specific pvp games to be bothersome so im not unbiased but im thinking about how the wow community will react. ITs a known quanity at this point they treated the game the same way for nearly two decades now.

[Tyris Flare]

It is absolutely, unequivocally NOT more balanced than it ever has been. I'm not sure we've had a time where a tank was more dominant than pld is right now, and there are massive dps outliers too.

This seems like short memory syndrome. Nothing is as OP now as sv hunters or warlocks in SL. Remember blood DKs ins3 with their set bonus and Kyrian? Or how holy paladins did like 3x normal healer dps in season 1?

Its far from perfect but they have been making changes much more frequently now

[Thirtyrock]

I think we need to be open to this working well and give Blizzard some time to work this spec out. If they CAN balance it, we have a really good opportunity for some great expansion of specs.

I think, if by the end of the expansion, we don't see this pretty well balanced, where bringing a good one can significantly boost the raid/group's overall damage and bringing a bad one is like bringing a mediocre dps, then we'll see them rework it into a traditional dps of some sort.