I think making a support class is a recipe for disater.

[kenn9530]

The spec will be utter crap to play anywhere outside instanced group content and that's not a good thing for a new spec. People play tanks in world content a lot because they have exceptional defense and tank AoE tends to scale decently. Augmentation is definitely tankier than Devastation but that's where it ends.

You dont play healer specs out in the open world solo either unless you want to spebd 4 times as long killing when the dps spec even played badly kills stuff faster so you dont have a point at all, takes 2 secs to respec into something useful for whatever you want to do solo why would you play in a role that will be bad for what you are doing.

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Not sure why people from the PTR say Augmentors do low dps. Trust me, NO ONE will play a dps spec that is designed to do trash dps, however useful it might be to the group with buffs or other ways.

People want to see themselves melting that dps meter, not do the lowest damage in the group but find comfort in the fact that everyone else does a lot more dps because of their buffs.

If it's true that Augmentors do low damage, the spec is DOA, no one will be playing it outside some casuals that don't do shit and don't care about shit in the game, and some guilds who will have a couple of those for raids.

It's like Blizzard has no notion whatsoever of human psychology. It's amazing, really.

Not everyone cares about topping the meters but the dps that augmentation adds to other players is the augmentations extra dps, if the spec does 50k on its own but adds an overall 100k dps then the augmentation evoker is the one doing 150k dps and the logs should reflect this, thats how performance and logs work, its not just about looking at a dps meter and being at the top.

[Relapses]

It seems pretty clear its support... numbers are early but its dmg is so low in groups that it would be between a disc and tank for output.

It gets buffs solo for world gameplay so you cant look at a target dummy unless you are in a party

Ah, gotcha. I wasn't sure where they were aiming in terms of damage. I feel like 80% of a regular DPS would be fine -- some tanks are already there.

[arkanon]

Ah, gotcha. I wasn't sure where they were aiming in terms of damage. I feel like 80% of a regular DPS would be fine -- some tanks are already there.

Not trying to derail but that's still something I can't get my head around - healers and tanks doing more than competitive damage. It just doesn't click with me personally.

[TbouncerT]

Disc priests have been half healer half dps for a LONG time, and yet we havent seen that removed or added to other classes.

So annoying they are adding another 'role' to the game. It should have been another healer and fit the spot where Disc is. It just seems like they're working on phasing out healers and making it Tanks and Support. Not to mention they are adding it to a class that can only be 1 race, and meanwhile they're making most if not all of the other classes have no race boundaries anymore.

With how the OW team is handling OW1/OW2, makes me worried about the WoW team kind of going the same route. Not sure about the Dabs team yet and I opted to not touch D4 until launch. I know they are separate teams, but that doesn't stop stuff from bleeding over to other teams. Just have to wait and see, we're all along for the ride.

Heck, Preservation is basically a way better Disc. DPSing most of the time with the occasional not direct healing spells. They can just heal and DPS lightyears better than Disc ever has, sadly.

At this point, they might as well rework Disc to fit this new 'role' type. Also wouldn't be surprised if they tried to add this to DH as their 3rd spec.

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You dont play healer specs out in the open world solo either unless you want to spebd 4 times as long killing when the dps spec even played badly kills stuff faster so you dont have a point at all, takes 2 secs to respec into something useful for whatever you want to do solo why would you play in a role that will be bad for what you are doing.

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Not everyone cares about topping the meters but the dps that augmentation adds to other players is the augmentations extra dps, if the spec does 50k on its own but adds an overall 100k dps then the augmentation evoker is the one doing 150k dps and the logs should reflect this, thats how performance and logs work, its not just about looking at a dps meter and being at the top.

As the person you're responding to proves, that is all that matters to those types of people. Most of them are like if you're not 1st you're last (silly but mostly true). If you cant top the meters then what's the point, right? Also, meters do NOT tell the whole story either.

[bloodmoth13]

You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?

Let them test it and try it for DF.
I agree with you it's not a good fit for wow and it's not something that can be ignored by players who aren't interested. It will be game changing, I don't want it in every group it will make higher level content frustrating.
I don't see how it could be balanced between mandatory vs unnecessary

[TbouncerT]

Not trying to derail but that's still something I can't get my head around - healers and tanks doing more than competitive damage. It just doesn't click with me personally.

yeah, it seems like WoW is moving in the direction of DPS DPS DPS, what classes can do it the best and bring those. Pretty silly that what the tank's or healer's DPS is will make or break them being invited (outside of friends/fam type stuff) or lower playtime. They need to shift back to the days where tanks worried about threat and mitigation, the healers focused on keeping people alive and the DPS keeps doing what they have always done, pew pew. But this is what happens when you try to shift the game to where anyone can play any class solo and do everything. hence why DPS has a lot more self or off-heals now (or just plain self-sustain). Healing power dropped and are expected to DPS a lot more than before. This is what also happens when you move the power shift from the Tanks & Healers to DPS players. There is a reason why the term mindless dps came to be.

[Vakna]

Aug Evoker will either be completely busted OP, or totally useless. There will never be an inbetween with a support spec. Personally I hope it will turn out to be useless, because otherwise it's gonna be absolute hell with people trying to get one in every group.

[FelPlague]

So annoying they are adding another 'role' to the game. It should have been another healer and fit the spot where Disc is. It just seems like they're working on phasing out healers and making it Tanks and Support. [/COLOR]



As the person you're responding to proves, that is all that matters to those types of people. Most of them are like if you're not 1st you're last (silly but mostly true). If you cant top the meters then what's the point, right? Also, meters do NOT tell the whole story either.

Its not a new role, its dps, just the dps is like disc that it does dps and buffs anothers dps, instead of doing dps and healing.

[Inoculate]

My fear is that if they expand the role too wide, would it impact group composition too much.

If people enjoy the role and too many support are in a group, or too little, what are the ramifications that will limit success? Will they tune future content around needing that extra dps? What will be the sweet spot?

It shakes up the meta a bit and I'm 100% swapping off preservation the second it's live but still...some fears linger while we wait to see how it'll change things up.

Hopefully it's a good change.

[arkanon]

yeah, it seems like WoW is moving in the direction of DPS DPS DPS, what classes can do it the best and bring those. Pretty silly that what the tank's or healer's DPS is will make or break them being invited (outside of friends/fam type stuff) or lower playtime. They need to shift back to the days where tanks worried about threat and mitigation, the healers focused on keeping people alive and the DPS keeps doing what they have always done, pew pew. But this is what happens when you try to shift the game to where anyone can play any class solo and do everything. hence why DPS has a lot more self or off-heals now (or just plain self-sustain). Healing power dropped and are expected to DPS a lot more than before. This is what also happens when you move the power shift from the Tanks & Healers to DPS players. There is a reason why the term mindless dps came to be.

I agree 100%, as a tank main from day 1 i took pride in my threat, mitigation/damage reduction, and CD usage. I felt awesome when a healer would say "holy shit you are easy to heal" but i NEVER took pride in doing high dmg. I didnt AVOID doing max damage, but regardless of what the forum warriors try to say 20 years later, it was NOT expected of us.

As a healer, i took pride in making the tanks job as easy as possible, while also covering for the mistakes of DPS without pointing fingers and throwing a tantrum. Those were the good runs, where at the end everyone just said "man, that was a smooth run, thanks guys!". It was a much simpler time, and obviously the GAME was much simpler as well, which no doubt was a factor.

I miss those days, but M+ was the final nail in that coffin, so I am not saying those who enjoy the modern SPEED IS KING style of play are wrong, they enjoy it and thats fine. Im also not expecting them to change after all this time, so it just is what it is.

[Inoculate]

I agree 100%, as a tank main from day 1 i took pride in my threat, mitigation/damage reduction, and CD usage. I felt awesome when a healer would say "holy shit you are easy to heal" but i NEVER took pride in doing high dmg. I didnt AVOID doing max damage, but regardless of what the forum warriors try to say 20 years later, it was NOT expected of us.

As a healer, i took pride in making the tanks job as easy as possible, while also covering for the mistakes of DPS without pointing fingers and throwing a tantrum. Those were the good runs, where at the end everyone just said "man, that was a smooth run, thanks guys!". It was a much simpler time, and obviously the GAME was much simpler as well, which no doubt was a factor.

I miss those days, but M+ was the final nail in that coffin, so I am not saying those who enjoy the modern SPEED IS KING style of play are wrong, they enjoy it and thats fine. Im also not expecting them to change after all this time, so it just is what it is.

I agree but that's also why you find other players like you so you can find those into the same playstyles. Much easier said than done, sadly.

[arkanon]

I agree but that's also why you find other players like you so you can find those into the same playstyles. Much easier said than done, sadly.

Agreed, i was very fortunate. I started playing with a core group in TBC, and continued to play with the SAME players until SL, when most quit. The group fluctuated from 10, up to around 25, and back. As some of us moved into mythic raiding, the rest stayed as our friends and family heroic group, so I always had a 'stress relief' group who were happy to play how we enjoyed it. However, as the game pushed further and further into the GOGOGO style of gameplay, in particular M+, we kind of just lost interest. Which is TOTALLY fine, we still play games together to this day, just now wow.

[Nymrohd]

My fear is that if they expand the role too wide, would it impact group composition too much.

If people enjoy the role and too many support are in a group, or too little, what are the ramifications that will limit success? Will they tune future content around needing that extra dps? What will be the sweet spot?

It shakes up the meta a bit and I'm 100% swapping off preservation the second it's live but still...some fears linger while we wait to see how it'll change things up.

Hopefully it's a good change.

I do wonder, how does having two augmenters work right now? I assume you get two separate cases of Ebon Might?

[Loveliest]

Let's wait and see how it actually pans out.

[trimble]

Ah, gotcha. I wasn't sure where they were aiming in terms of damage. I feel like 80% of a regular DPS would be fine -- some tanks are already there.

No... maybe in mythic plus during large pulls but if a tank is near 80% of your dmg done you need to get better dps.

Edit: I mean compared to some ST specs dps should still be crushing it.

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I do wonder, how does having two augmenters work right now? I assume you get two separate cases of Ebon Might?

Right now its one per group some of their buffs overlap but only a few. It looks like you will want 4 a raid so far.

[Fitsu]

You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?

Yep, what I think they should do is rework healer into a support role. Healer feels outdated and are already expected to DPS during downtime which many healers don't like.

I would say the support role provides the same if not a better class fantasy than a healer does, bolstering your group. No more need to DPS as bolstering the group is your DPS, they could even have some small healing/party wide defensive mechanics. Then just give everyone the abilities to keep themself alive, everyone is responsible for themselves.

This also means the support can be OP, because it's a staple of the group. As long as the support is buffing atleast 3 people then it provides more DPS than a 4th DPS would. 1 tank/1 support/3 dps would IMO be a much more enjoyable experience for everyone involved. Maybe this support role is them dipping their toes into this idea?

This fits well into a raid group as well, 2/4/14? That's 4 Supports, one in each group. I doubt we'll ever see a full archetype be reworked but I really think this would drastically improve the game.

[trimble]

Yep, what I think they should do is rework healer into a support role. Healer feels outdated and are already expected to DPS during downtime which many healers don't like.

I would say the support role provides the same if not a better class fantasy than a healer does, bolstering your group. No more need to DPS as bolstering the group is your DPS, they could even have some small healing/party wide defensive mechanics. Then just give everyone the abilities to keep themself alive, everyone is responsible for themselves.

This also means the support can be OP, because it's a staple of the group. As long as the support is buffing atleast 3 people then it provides more DPS than a 4th DPS would. 1 tank/1 support/3 dps would IMO be a much more enjoyable experience for everyone involved. Maybe this support role is them dipping their toes into this idea?

This fits well into a raid group as well, 2/4/14? That's 4 Supports, one in each group. I doubt we'll ever see a full archetype be reworked but I really think this would drastically improve the game.

I really don't Making your performance rely on others has always been pretty shitty in wow. Corruptions highlighted it the most. I don't really get the fetish for it...

[Shadowferal]

Once upon a time, oh-so-long ago, having certain "resistances" bolstered was considered necessary in certain dungeons.

[Relapses]

No... maybe in mythic plus during large pulls but if a tank is near 80% of your dmg done you need to get better dps.

Edit: I mean compared to some ST specs dps should still be crushing it.

If the other four people in your group are each performing 20% better then that would easily *ahem* augment the hybrid tax. My issue is less with the damage side of things and more if they start giving them niche support abilities from other classes' toolkits. (Think Blessing of Spellwarding, Leap of Faith, etc.)

[trimble]

If the other four people in your group are each performing 20% better then that would easily *ahem* augment the hybrid tax. My issue is less with the damage side of things and more if they start giving them niche support abilities from other classes' toolkits. (Think Blessing of Spellwarding, Leap of Faith, etc.)

My issue is with the problem that comes with making an enitrely new role that is gonna be utterly awful to balance around.