I think making a support class is a recipe for disater.

[Relapses]

My issue is with the problem that comes with making an enitrely new role that is gonna be utterly awful to balance around.

If we end up in a world where the optimal play is to have 4 Augment Evokers in every 20M Mythic raid then yeah. I'd agree that Blizzard has failed to balance. It's still too early to tell if that's how it'll pan out yet. I understand your concern but let's wait til we get more solid information before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Lolites]

we can still have Erath shaman tank

yeah i would love that...
before DF revamp of talents i had idea how i would change classes and it was basically all classes would have 2 "basic" specs only and each spec would have 2 "subspec" - branches in trees
druid is easiest example - it would be "nature" split in balance/rest and "feral" split in cat/bear
for shammy i had tanking as branch of enhancement

[trimble]

If we end up in a world where the optimal play is to have 4 Augment Evokers in every 20M Mythic raid then yeah. I'd agree that Blizzard has failed to balance. It's still too early to tell if that's how it'll pan out yet. I understand your concern but let's wait til we get more solid information before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

You wil either have 4 or 3... depends if its work buffing tanks and healers or not. If its not that its 0

[kenn9530]

As the person you're responding to proves, that is all that matters to those types of people. Most of them are like if you're not 1st you're last (silly but mostly true). If you cant top the meters then what's the point, right? Also, meters do NOT tell the whole story either.

It doesnt really prove anything, most players dont really care at all about being the top because if they did there would be constant complaining because there is only 1 spot for the no1, meters are not everything there is jobs in raids that will make it very difficult to perform properly on dps like raid leading or being a class that can handle certain mechanics, getting on top of the meters is nice but hardly an issue, the only ones that really care about this are the toxic players who cant understand there is more to the game than being no1 on the meters.

[Fitsu]

I really don't Making your performance rely on others has always been pretty shitty in wow. Corruptions highlighted it the most. I don't really get the fetish for it...

I agree, personally I would be fine with just 4dps/1 tank but people enjoy the support/healer role fantasy and if one of those two has to be in the game I would much prefer it be a support to a healer. Surely being reliant on another player to keep you alive is far more detrimental to your performance than being reliant on another player to give you 40% more dps.

Maybe they could make it so the DPS they give to other players actually shows up as their DPS not the other players? That'd remove the feeling that a large part of your DPS is reliant on another player and give that player a metric to track their performance.

[Nymrohd]

I really don't Making your performance rely on others has always been pretty shitty in wow. Corruptions highlighted it the most. I don't really get the fetish for it...

And you know if you want to support your group, play a healer. Play a tank.

[jeezusisacasual]

And you know if you want to support your group, play a healer. Play a tank.

Nah they want the ability to say I AM HELPING without any of the pressure or responsibility those 2 roles provide.

[Luxeley]

I think it's a great "idea" and a very gutsy move, but the infrastructure of the entire game and the persona of the player base stack the odds against it working out. It does have the potential to work out on the Pve side of the game, especially if the dmg buffs extend to multiple players. But, I don't see how this works out on the pvp side of the game.

[Nymrohd]

Nah they want the ability to say I AM HELPING without any of the pressure or responsibility those 2 roles provide.

Yeah, probably. Really if Blizzard actually manages to track damage back to Augmenters imagine the whining "my damage is low cause the people I buffed sucked!"

[Shadowferal]

I'm reminded of paladin auras.

[trimble]

Nah they want the ability to say I AM HELPING without any of the pressure or responsibility those 2 roles provide.

This is kind of my worry... I really dont wanna go back to tbc where you brought a shammy just because they could press bloodlust. Since you needed four and whatever else they did barely mattered as much you had a lot of near carries in groups.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I agree 100%, as a tank main from day 1 i took pride in my threat, mitigation/damage reduction, and CD usage. I felt awesome when a healer would say "holy shit you are easy to heal" but i NEVER took pride in doing high dmg. I didnt AVOID doing max damage, but regardless of what the forum warriors try to say 20 years later, it was NOT expected of us.

As a healer, i took pride in making the tanks job as easy as possible, while also covering for the mistakes of DPS without pointing fingers and throwing a tantrum. Those were the good runs, where at the end everyone just said "man, that was a smooth run, thanks guys!". It was a much simpler time, and obviously the GAME was much simpler as well, which no doubt was a factor.

I miss those days, but M+ was the final nail in that coffin, so I am not saying those who enjoy the modern SPEED IS KING style of play are wrong, they enjoy it and thats fine. Im also not expecting them to change after all this time, so it just is what it is.

One of the core issues is that if tanks aren't mostly self-sufficient, it is a miserable role to play. You have no agency in the original game comparatively, you just hope your healer isn't afk. So now most tank specs are basically superman, and everyone else is the rest of the Justice League lol. Tanks dying is almost always their fault, not the healer, in the modern game.

So because of that, the healer is now mostly responsible for healing DPS. In new dungeons, this is often pretty difficult because there is a lot more pulsing unavoidable AE damage, like the ice lady in HoI. But in many older dungeons, like court and FH and UR, there's very little damage to a good group so the healer just does DPS the whole time.

I personally think the pulsing damage stuff is probably the best solution because healers actually have to heal.

[Ersula]

It was not fun then, and it will not be fun now.

But lots of people play those classes in classic. Seems like this is just a "you" thing. I don't see them adding more strictly support specs, but increasing the utility aspects of unpopular PvE specs, like Feral Druid.

[jeezusisacasual]

One of the core issues is that if tanks aren't mostly self-sufficient, it is a miserable role to play. You have no agency in the original game comparatively, you just hope your healer isn't afk. So now most tank specs are basically superman, and everyone else is the rest of the Justice League lol. Tanks dying is almost always their fault, not the healer, in the modern game.

So because of that, the healer is now mostly responsible for healing DPS. In new dungeons, this is often pretty difficult because there is a lot more pulsing unavoidable AE damage, like the ice lady in HoI. But in many older dungeons, like court and FH and UR, there's very little damage to a good group so the healer just does DPS the whole time.

I personally think the pulsing damage stuff is probably the best solution because healers actually have to heal.

I disagree since it was the mark of a good player to avoid that sort of damage now it just happens. DPS is the most important aspect of the game and still continues to be and will always be that way since we are basing everything on a timer either a M+ timer or an enrage timer. Now i only bring resto shamans into my groups ( i tank ) since they have so many tools + lust + dmg plus cc abilities and raid viable cds in a 5 man setting.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, probably. Really if Blizzard actually manages to track damage back to Augmenters imagine the whining "my damage is low cause the people I buffed sucked!"

Oh god i never thought about that either and the more blaming will be had

- - - Updated - - -

This is kind of my worry... I really dont wanna go back to tbc where you brought a shammy just because they could press bloodlust. Since you needed four and whatever else they did barely mattered as much you had a lot of near carries in groups.

People want individuality in a game with 30+ specs / classes is insane to me and for it to be somewhat balanced.

[Soon-TM]

My issue is with the problem that comes with making an enitrely new role that is gonna be utterly awful to balance around.

For some reason, I started having flashbacks to the BC era, when lacking resto shamans meant that raid had to be basically called off

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I disagree since it was the mark of a good player to avoid that sort of damage now it just happens. DPS is the most important aspect of the game and still continues to be and will always be that way since we are basing everything on a timer either a M+ timer or an enrage timer. Now i only bring resto shamans into my groups ( i tank ) since they have so many tools + lust + dmg plus cc abilities and raid viable cds in a 5 man setting.

- - - Updated - - -

What are you disagreeing with?

[Nightshade711]

I mean… if blizzard is successful in the combat logs that attribute extra damage from buffs to the Evoker instead of the person buffed… why would this be a disaster?

[Dristereau]

Not convinced by it. Feeling like it will be mandatory or completely useless in Raids, Keys as well. From a 2v2 perspective, if it's classed as DPS does it compete with a normal Damage Dealer? Not sure what to even think of it in Rated 3's/Shuffle.

Personally feel like by 11.0 it will either be a DPS or Tank.

[Biomega]

I mean… if blizzard is successful in the combat logs that attribute extra damage from buffs to the Evoker instead of the person buffed… why would this be a disaster?

That's not going to happen. SOME of the damage is going to work that way, because it scales up its own damage based on the damage other people are doing within a specific window - but the straight buffs are not going to show up on your own meter somehow. To do that, they'd have to radically change the way the combat log works, and then you'd have to do it for OTHER classes too and all the damage from Arcane Intellect or whatever would have to be in a different place, too. And they aren't going to do that.

I'll be happy to be proved wrong, of course. Things ARE still changing, since this isn't out yet.

[Nightshade711]

That's not going to happen. SOME of the damage is going to work that way, because it scales up its own damage based on the damage other people are doing within a specific window - but the straight buffs are not going to show up on your own meter somehow. To do that, they'd have to radically change the way the combat log works, and then you'd have to do it for OTHER classes too and all the damage from Arcane Intellect or whatever would have to be in a different place, too. And they aren't going to do that.

I'll be happy to be proved wrong, of course. Things ARE still changing, since this isn't out yet.

I mean I don’t think it could be TOO hard to implement.
Since most of Evoker’s buffs are flat damage buffs through stats. (Main stat & Vers)

Just have two different calculations for damage. One that would be “without the buff”, and then one “with the buff.”
Just attribute the difference between the two to the Evoker.

Though the crit buff would be harder to attribute. (But not the “abilities have a 15% change to echo”) one.