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  1. #1

    I think making a support class is a recipe for disater.

    You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

    Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

    Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

    Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

    Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?
    Yeah, it's too late to make a tank spec. But, I am not convinced it is a bad idea to make a support based dps spec as they're updating the APIs to show what damage contribution the spec is providing by buffing others. This means it will show up in Details! and WarcraftLogs.

    A number of folks in my guild and in my friends list have expressed interest and questions about the spec and at least 2 plan to play it somewhat regularly either mid-season or starting in season 3. I'm not surprised. Those two people said they'd always wanted a support spec and never had one in game. One of those two is a 99% percent parsing mage on average who would prefer to play a support role rather than a dps role.

    After playing with it on PTR, I'm probably going to do it in our guild's alt runs as well. A third person expressing interest dropped after he realized it was a dps spec and not a healer one. But, that's at least attracted some interest.

  3. #3
    I mean theoretically it could be balanced that a support class adds just as much group damage as a pure dps class does.

    Realistically it means that you would have to balance it for all group and raid sizes.
    Additionally naturally you will want to enhance classes and specs that already are in front, leading to an even further gap in spec strength that will make classic look evenly balanced.

    I am very sceptical they are able to deliver a fair and balanced support class, but perhaps I will be surprised.

    My prediction is that it will come unbalanced, making some other specs completely OP in combination with a support class, and with every coming balancing patch they will take away power from their support spells and shift it towards the evoker itself, so in the next xpac it's just another dps spec.

  4. #4
    The problem with balancing is that the top end guilds are gonna be super good at coordinating and optimizing it, and your average pug won't be. So either it'll be op at the top end, or useless in the middle.

  5. #5
    When is the game ever balanced well, anyway? Might as well just do the cool shit and worry about balancing, which they never manage to do well later.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

    Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

    Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?
    Too late for tank spec anyways. Besiddes, it is new for WoW, and adding a Tank spec doesn't solve that issue either.
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  7. #7
    There are only two outcomes here.

    Either more classes get "support" damage specs, or next expansion they get revamped to just be straight damage similar to their hybrid tank concept for Death Knights.

  8. #8
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

    Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

    Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?
    The thing is the "support spec" is really just a DPS spec with support abilities to allow it to do more DPS. It's not much different than how Discipline does support and damage to increase their healing. The Augmentation spec is a more difficult DPS spec to play, so I doubt it will do what you're saying its going to do. What's going to happen is that Augmentation Evokers will be sought after if they're really good. If they're not good, they're not going to be putting out much DPS, and will either switch out or be dumped.

    While I would have preferred a tank spec, the Augvoker is a pretty cool concept, and I'm happy they brought it into the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    There are only two outcomes here.

    Either more classes get "support" damage specs, or next expansion they get revamped to just be straight damage similar to their hybrid tank concept for Death Knights.
    Conversely, Augmentation could remain a unique spec in the game. There is a chance the NEXT future class will also get a support spec of some type.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

    Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

    Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?
    Too late obviously. Anyway support class its self prob make less damage than typical dps. So if they gonna balance it well (haha balance i know) setup 2x dps 1x support should be same as 3x dps. Or just made mandatory picks in dungeon to pick 1 support; 2 dps; 1 tank; 1 healer and ofc same in raid. Dunno tbh just thinkin about it.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Augmentation spec is a more difficult DPS spec to play
    How is this at all true?

    Cast Ebon Might
    Cast Fire Breath
    Cast Upheaval
    Cast Eruption if you have the essence for it
    Cast Living Flame if you don't.
    Repeat every 25sec


    Otherwise its throw in some instant cast buffs on people, that will most likely be macroed to focus or target macros.

    It might be the single easiest class to play ever. If they made it cast while moving, it would be easier than BM hunter.

  11. #11
    Given the new combat log hooks Blizzard are implementing, the damage Augmentation Evoker adds to other players won't actually show on those players logs. It will show for the Evoker itself, so it's basically just a dps that is reliant on other damage dealers actually doing their job.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

    Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

    Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?
    Unfortunately it's a high possibility, wouldn't be so bad if Blizz wasn't so awful with balancing things...but yeah with their track record it's very likely to either be a must have or never take

  13. #13
    Good chance blizz just says it doesnt work and scraps the whole idea next xpac. I'm remembering 3 tank specs for dk that failed.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    There are only two outcomes here.

    Either more classes get "support" damage specs, or next expansion they get revamped to just be straight damage similar to their hybrid tank concept for Death Knights.
    I wouldn't mind more random selected classes among support, dps, healing, or tanking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Flame6 View Post
    Good chance blizz just says it doesnt work and scraps the whole idea next xpac. I'm remembering 3 tank specs for dk that failed.
    It didn't fail? It wasn't three tank specs, it was three specs that could be tanks or DPS. Unholy was fun for tanking, Frost was great for kiting, and blood was the powerhouse with so much self-healing + an Unholy DK, making it able to just be pure DKs.
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  15. #15
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumble View Post
    How is this at all true?

    Cast Ebon Might
    Cast Fire Breath
    Cast Upheaval
    Cast Eruption if you have the essence for it
    Cast Living Flame if you don't.
    Repeat every 25sec


    Otherwise its throw in some instant cast buffs on people, that will most likely be macroed to focus or target macros.

    It might be the single easiest class to play ever. If they made it cast while moving, it would be easier than BM hunter.
    Because you’re reliant on other players to maximize your damage output.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    There are only two outcomes here.

    Either more classes get "support" damage specs, or next expansion they get revamped to just be straight damage similar to their hybrid tank concept for Death Knights.
    Disc priests have been half healer half dps for a LONG time, and yet we havent seen that removed or added to other classes.
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  17. #17
    As a DPS Warrior who mostly pugs keys, I'm a bit nervous to see group comps in a post support class world, but I'm not going to stress anything yet.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakhath View Post
    As a DPS Warrior who mostly pugs keys, I'm a bit nervous to see group comps in a post support class world, but I'm not going to stress anything yet.
    Maybe 6 man parties because having 1 less dps slot would not be a good idea considering the ratio of heal/tank to dps, or they just convert arms into arms dealer and have them move a cart around full of weapons which they supply to the rest of the group.

  19. #19
    It's unclear what'll happen exactly, but the POTENTIAL for problems is certainly there. It's really difficult to balance a concept like this so it's not either mandatory or useless, because the spread is a lot wider and a lot more unstable here than it is for "regular" classes thanks to the multitude of compounding effects. As things stand, this looks rather complicated to optimize, and that opens to the door to balance problems between low and high skill. Do you make it so the average rando can play it well? Then the no-life pro players will wring out absolutely absurd performance. Or do you balance around top-tier players and their optimization? Then Casual Andy is going to absolutely suck. Given how many doors this opens towards grinding out extra edge, it seems really hard to find a middle ground.

    Now, this doesn't mean it's IMPOSSIBLE, and it doesn't mean they couldn't change things, either. But there's POTENTIAL problems aplenty with this, in ways that we don't really have on classes/specs/roles that don't have as many contingencies on other people's performance.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    You run into the old problem that plagues any game with support. Either the support is so powerful you take 1 tank, 1 healer. 1 support, and 2 dps or you just never take a support.

    Given wows playerbase is one that is extremely invested in min maxing I can't see how this wont end badly... This is the community that will refuse to use anything that isn't the most optimal version of an item.

    Think it is so late to just make the third evoker spec a tank?
    could go either way, go great or terrible.

    But 1 thing i think your take does point out. In de age of every race, every class. Every other hero having the same super ability. Its weird to see a only 1 spec/race/class has certain ability's. Kinda spits in the face of bring the player not the class. And while i love that ( spitting in the face of that). I think every class , every race is beyond stupid for both gameplay, lore, story etc reasons. Its also silly. they spend all the time and money developing this. while on the other hand they say: your class/race combo does not mean anything anymore :S

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