Crypt Lord class now possible thanks to Dracthyr Evokers?

[Nightshade711]

Why would there be demand? No one has considered this class before.

Because the expansion concept is “one of the most popular” expansion concepts like you said.

Weird how people wouldn’t have been demanding a Nerubian class based off it. (Almost because they realize the gameplay loop exists in other classes, just like the Lich WC3 class)

This also sounds like sour grapes because you couldn’t find those 5 abilities from Elereth’s spider form that matches with the Druid class.

Because we’ve already talked about it previously.
Cocoon is already just a cyclone copy paste. Adaptive Swarm fits for the spider/insect swarms. Force of Nature fits the temporary minion summon.
The list goes on and on.

And I never said they “matched with the Druid class” I was saying how Elereth was a Druid, and was using “Nerubian” abilities lmao.

I have no idea what that has to do with this thread.

There is design space available for a Crypt Lord class, there is multiple CL heroes to pull abilities from for a class, and there is a possible (and popular) expansion concept that matches this class’ theme. That means we have the possibility of a nerubian race/class.

It’s really as simple as that.

Because you’re claiming that the Nerubian class is possible because it “matches the expansion theme”.

When we’ve had several expansions where WC3 heroes could’ve been added because they “match the expansion theme”, but they never were.
(Arguably said classes that could’ve been added would’ve made more sense since there was actual demand for them.)

[Ielenia]

Where’s the Dinomancer hero from WC3 or HotS?

One: evokers don't exist in WC3.
Two: HotS is irrelevant. It's not a mandatory requirement to "exist" in that game to be realized as a class in WoW. Especially with HotS being a dead game now.

[Nightshade711]

One: evokers don't exist in WC3.
Two: HotS is irrelevant. It's not a mandatory requirement to "exist" in that game to be realized as a class in WoW. Especially with HotS being a dead game now.

True. Evokers proved that a class doesn’t HAVE to exist in WC3 or hots to be a thing.
At most they’d simply take slight inspiration for one or two abilities.

Evoker is almost entirely different from the hots dragons.
(Throwback to Teriz saying a Bronze spec would be a DPS with us attacking with “temporal sands” and summoning copies of ourselves)

[Teriz]

I literally explained the context which puts both in the same category here.

But they’re not in the same category.

And the nerubian customization options would be used just by the forsaken druids. Same as dracthyr and evoker.

Dracthyr Evoker isn’t a customization option……

Again: the only difference is in scope. We already have transmog that is exclusive to the races. Remember Heritage armor? What's the problem in making race-specific class customizations?

Wow, transmog and Heritage armor has nothing to do with this.

It doesn't matter at all if the Crypt Lord model is not based on the bear or cat models. And you know why? Because the werebear model is also not based on the bear or cat models and they're an actual druid form with its own animations that are wildly different from either the bear and cat animations. So, yeah, the existence of the werebear completely invalidates your argument about how the nerubian model "wildly differs from the bear and cat models".

And every Druid race can access the werebear…..

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Because the expansion concept is “one of the most popular” expansion concepts like you said.

Weird how people wouldn’t have been demanding a Nerubian class based off it. (Almost because they realize the gameplay loop exists in other classes, just like the Lich WC3 class)

Because before Dracthyr Evoker there was no path to create such a class. There is now.

Because we’ve already talked about it previously.
Cocoon is already just a cyclone copy paste. Adaptive Swarm fits for the spider/insect swarms. Force of Nature fits the temporary minion summon.
The list goes on and on.

Those aren't Elereth's abilities.

And I never said they “matched with the Druid class” I was saying how Elereth was a Druid, and was using “Nerubian” abilities lmao.

Druids have Adaptive Swarm. And a lot of other abilities that mechanically act the same as [Elereth's] spider/insect abilities.

Because you’re claiming that the Nerubian class is possible because it “matches the expansion theme”.

Which it does.

When we’ve had several expansions where WC3 heroes could’ve been added because they “match the expansion theme”, but they never were.
(Arguably said classes that could’ve been added would’ve made more sense since there was actual demand for them.)

Well we didn't get Necromancers in Shadowlands because we already had DKs.
We didn't get Tinkers in BFA because that expansion wasn't about Goblins or Gnomes.
We didn't get Blademasters in WoD because we had just gotten Monks in MoP, and Warriors covered Blademasters almost completely (though there was a trinket in HFC that gave you mirror image).

So there you go.

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One: evokers don't exist in WC3.

Dragons did. Evokers are based on Warcraft dragons.

Two: HotS is irrelevant. It's not a mandatory requirement to "exist" in that game to be realized as a class in WoW. Especially with HotS being a dead game now.

Yet pretty much every WoW class contains HotS abilities, including the new Evoker class.

[Ielenia]

But they’re not in the same category.

Dracthyr Evoker isn’t a customization option……

Wow, transmog and Heritage armor has nothing to do with this.

I have already explained the context. If you want to be dishonest and insist on being ignorant of the context, that's on you.

And every Druid race can access the werebear…..

Again: dishonestly moving the goalpost. The werebear argument isn't about race availability, but about having a form that doesn't fit the bear or cat models.

Dragons did. Evokers are based on Warcraft dragons.

Dragons aren't evokers or dracthyrs.

Yet pretty much every WoW class contains HotS abilities, including the new Evoker class.

Irrelevant. That in no way proves that HotS is anything like a mandatory requirement. Especially since it's a dead game. It's not getting any more heroes.

[Triceron]

What exactly is the problem here? That you think a Crypt Lord can't use its melee attack when you auto attack with a bear?

Let me know when Blizzard allows Human forms to perform Maim, Thrash, Maul, and other bear attacks in the live game.

Doesn't really address the issue. What is the problem here, that you don't think different models can be adapted to Bear attacks?

They did a pretty good job adapting the humanoid Dire Troll skeleton to Bear attacks no problem.


Are you trying to present an opinion that you don't want it to happen? I'd respect that opinion fine. I just don't see why you're insistent on it having to be an example in the live game, when we already have Werebear animations that are adapted from Dire Trolls doing the very thing you are claiming would not work.

[Nightshade711]

Because before Dracthyr Evoker there was no path to create such a class. There is now.

Imagine how boring it’d be if Blizzard just did a copy of Dracthyr Evoker again but with spiders instead of Dragonkin.

Those aren't Elereth's abilities.

Might want to go back through her list of abilities.
The only thing that (might) be different mechanically is her toxin/venom dots. But that’s a nonissue.

The point still stands how Elereth, a Druid, had a Druid form that was using a Nerubian model and had Nerubian-esque abilities.
So there’s probably more lore precedent to continue that with druids than add a whole new class that’d break lore with their “sexy” humanoid forms and transformation.

We didn't get Tinkers in BFA because that expansion wasn't about Goblins or Gnomes.

Yet a big theme of the expansion was technology and they would have fit in perfectly into the expansion. Especially with Mechagon.

Yet pretty much every WoW class contains HotS abilities, including the new Evoker class.

Pretty sure 90% of your “Evoker took abilities from hots” were actually taken from other sources.
Deep Breath exists because it’s something that’s common sense for a dragon. (Especially when Devs mentioned Onyxia when describing the ability)
And the PvP talent Chrono-loop is just mage Alter Time that existed before hots.

[Teriz]

I have already explained the context. If you want to be dishonest and insist on being ignorant of the context, that's on you.

Pot meet kettle.

Dragons aren't evokers or dracthyrs.

And Demon Hunters can't look like Illidan or do everything he can do. The DH class is still based on him.

Same applies to the Lich King and Death Knights.

Irrelevant. That in no way proves that HotS is anything like a mandatory requirement. Especially since it's a dead game. It's not getting any more heroes.

And yet Blizzard pulled abilities from that dead game and put them in the Evoker, DH and Hunter classes within the last 18 months.

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Imagine how boring it’d be if Blizzard just did a copy of Dracthyr Evoker again but with spiders instead of Dragonkin.

You're more likely getting another class long before this class appears, so don't worry.

Might want to go back through her list of abilities.
The only thing that (might) be different mechanically is her toxin/venom dots. But that’s a nonissue.

Equivalents for Web of Pain? Tangled Webs? Necrotic Poison? Venomous pools? Nightmare Spawn? Vile Ambush?

The point still stands how Elereth, a Druid, had a Druid form that was using a Nerubian model and had Nerubian-esque abilities.
So there’s probably more lore precedent to continue that with druids than add a whole new class that’d break lore with their “sexy” humanoid forms and transformation.

So you're saying there's going to be another Druid class that utilizes spider-like abilities? That's the only way what you're saying makes a lick of sense.

Yet a big theme of the expansion was technology and they would have fit in perfectly into the expansion. Especially with Mechagon.

No, the big theme of the expansion was the faction war, and Sylvanas turning evil and Anduin learning to be a leader. There wasn't even Goblins or Gnomes in the opening cinematic.

Pretty sure 90% of your “Evoker took abilities from hots” were actually taken from other sources.
Deep Breath exists because it’s something that’s common sense for a dragon. (Especially when Devs mentioned Onyxia when describing the ability)
And the PvP talent Chrono-loop is just mage Alter Time that existed before hots.

The fact remains; We had no playable model for a dragon class until HotS. After HotS, it became quite obvious how a dragon class would be implemented. The mechanics of Alexstraza especially was a blueprint for how Evoker came out.

However that isn't really the topic of this thread.

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Doesn't really address the issue. What is the problem here, that you don't think different models can be adapted to Bear attacks?

They did a pretty good job adapting the humanoid Dire Troll skeleton to Bear attacks no problem.


Are you trying to present an opinion that you don't want it to happen? I'd respect that opinion fine. I just don't see why you're insistent on it having to be an example in the live game, when we already have Werebear animations that are adapted from Dire Trolls doing the very thing you are claiming would not work.

Werebears aren't humans with staffs.

[Triceron]

Werebears aren't humans with staffs.

Neither are Bears, and the animations worked fine for a Druid. Crypt Lord animations aren't an issue at all.

[Teriz]

Neither are Bears, and the animations worked fine for a Druid. Crypt Lord animations aren't an issue at all.

They're certainly an issue, because Crypt Lords wouldn't use bear attacks.

[Nightshade711]

Equivalents for Web of Pain? Tangled Webs? Necrotic Poison? Venomous pools? Nightmare Spawn? Vile Ambush?

Essentially yeah.
Nightmare spawn is an easy force of nature reskin. Anything with webs could be cocoon/entangling roots reskins. List goes on.

So you're saying there's going to be another Druid class that utilizes spider-like abilities? That's the only way what you're saying makes a lick of sense.

That’s what you’re saying in your OP with the “Crypt lord class” acting mechanically like a Druid.

I’m saying there’s lore for druids turning into spiders using nerubian skeletons and using spider/insect abilities.
So it wouldn’t break anything for it to just be playable.

No, the big theme of the expansion was the faction war, and Sylvanas turning evil and Anduin learning to be a leader. There wasn't even Goblins or Gnomes in the opening cinematic.

Weird how there are mechs and tinkers/technology almost everywhere in BfA and we had at a minimum two dungeons with a heavy gnomish/goblin technology theme.
Even added the island teams with 3 specs for Tinkers.

Though you arguing against it surprises me because you were so adamant we’d get tinkers in a dragon isles expansion.

The fact remains; We had no playable model for a dragon class until HotS. After HotS, it became quite obvious how a dragon class would be implemented. The mechanics of Alexstraza especially was a blueprint for how Evoker came out.

Wrong.
We don’t even have a red dragon healer spec.

[Triceron]

They're certainly an issue, because Crypt Lords wouldn't use bear attacks.

Neither do Dinosaurs, Werebears and Humans with Staves, and they still work with Guardian Druid!

Again, you can even try Noggenfoggers skeleton form in WoW Classic LIVE right now. It works.

There is no problem if Crypt Lord is using its own animation sets being applied to Guardian Druid attacks and abilities.

-edit-

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...ations_in_101/

Looks like they updated Werebear animations to properly have a 2-handed Slam and an Uppercut attack instead of using the standard Bear after-images. Only a few patches ago no less. This is a huge step forward to showing how a Crypt Lord would be able to retain its animations if they're going out of their way to make these animations fit the Cosmetics, rather than shoehorn everything into using standard Bear attack animations.

[Nightshade711]

Neither do Dinosaurs, Werebears and Humans with Staves, and they still work with Guardian Druid!

Again, you can even try Noggenfoggers skeleton form in WoW Classic LIVE right now. It works.

There is no problem if Crypt Lord is using its own animation sets being applied to Guardian Druid attacks and abilities.

Unless it recently changed this all still works.
I liked to use the gnome pirate toy in PvP so I’d just be running around as a gnome pirate using bear & cat abilities.

[Teriz]

Now please keep in mind, you said mechanically the same.....

Essentially yeah.
Nightmare spawn is an easy force of nature reskin.

Nightmare Spawn
Continuously summons egg sacs around her location that grow over time. Fully grown egg sacs release Venomous Spiderlings when popped.

Elerethe will pop all grown egg sacs during Vile Ambush.

Venomous Spiderlings have Dripping Fangs and Venomous Pool ability.

Force of Nature

Summons a stand of 3 Treants for 10 sec which immediately taunt and attack enemies in the targeted area.

LoL! That's an easy reskin?

Anything with webs could be cocoon/entangling roots reskins. List goes on.

Web of Pain
Connects two targets with a web of pain. 100% of damage done to the linked source is reflected to you.
Reflected damage is increased after the targets seperate beyond 20 yards from each other.

So which one is this a reskin of? Entangling Roots or Cyclone?

That’s what you’re saying in your OP with the “Crypt lord class” acting mechanically like a Druid.

Yes, only the shapeshifting part.

I’m saying there’s lore for druids turning into spiders using nerubian skeletons and using spider/insect abilities.
So it wouldn’t break anything for it to just be playable.

It would break quite a bit since Druids don't have the abilities to support that awesome spider/nerubian form.

That's the point. That's the problem.

Weird how there are mechs and tinkers/technology almost everywhere in BfA and we had at a minimum two dungeons with a heavy gnomish/goblin technology theme.
Even added the island teams with 3 specs for Tinkers.

Which means nothing because the expansion theme wasn't about Goblins, Gnomes or Tinkers. BFA definitely expanded the lore, but it's silly to think the expansion revolved around that small aspect of it. Undermine will be the Tinker expansion.

Though you arguing against it surprises me because you were so adamant we’d get tinkers in a dragon isles expansion.

Uh no. I said we'll either get Tinkers, or we'll get the dragon class I proposed. The issue at the time was that many people (you included) believed that Blizzard would never create a race/class combination. So if we weren't getting that class, a Tinker would be the next best option.

We got the Dragon class I proposed.

Wrong.
We don’t even have a red dragon healer spec.

Go through Evoker talents. There's multiple red dragon healing spells and talents in the class.

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Neither do Dinosaurs, Werebears and Humans with Staves, and they still work with Guardian Druid!

Then let's not compound multiple mistakes with another one. Give a spider-based class its proper abilities, as shown here;

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=106087/e...al#screenshots

BTW, Elereth's abilities would make excellent material for a Crypt Lord DPS spec. Think I'll add it to the OP.

[Nightshade711]

Now please keep in mind, you said mechanically the same.....

LoL! That's an easy reskin?

So which one is this a reskin of? Entangling Roots or Cyclone?

Never said the boss was mechanically the same as druids.
That lore wise she’s a Druid and the themes of her abilities can be matched up with corresponding Druid abilities. (Like entangling roots, cyclone, force of nature. Hell even Denizen of the Dream is essentially a Crypt Lord ability but with Fae Dragons instead of Beetles.)

Yes, only the shapeshifting part.

Which is all Blizzard had to go on to make Dinomancers druids.

It would break quite a bit since Druids don't have the abilities to support that awesome spider/nerubian form.

Just like they don’t have abilities to support dinosaur forms but we got Zandalari druids.

Which means nothing because the expansion theme wasn't about Goblins, Gnomes or Tinkers. BFA definitely expanded the lore, but it's silly to think the expansion revolved around that small aspect of it. Undermine will be the Tinker expansion.

It’ll be a zone at most, won’t have an entire expansion based around Undermine.

Uh no. I said we'll either get Tinkers, or we'll get the dragon class I proposed. The issue at the time was that many people (you included) believed that Blizzard would never create a race/class combination. So if we weren't getting that class, a Tinker would be the next best option.

We got the Dragon class I proposed.

Nah we got nothing close to the dragon class you proposed.
You always said it was going to be a class only and the race was gonna be the visage.

Go through Evoker talents. There's multiple red dragon healing spells and talents in the class.

None of which are from Alexstraza’s kit.

BTW, Elereth's abilities would make excellent material for a Crypt Lord DPS spec. Think I'll add it to the OP.

So now you’re seeing how similar a lore Druid is to nerubians.
Good to know.

[Teriz]

Never said the boss was mechanically the same as druids.

Druids have Adaptive Swarm. And a lot of other abilities that mechanically act the same as [Elereth's] spider/insect abilities.

Then you went on to give some rather poor comparisons.

That lore wise she’s a Druid and the themes of her abilities can be matched up with corresponding Druid abilities. (Like entangling roots, cyclone, force of nature. Hell even Denizen of the Dream is essentially a Crypt Lord ability but with Fae Dragons instead of Beetles.)

See above. You didn’t say lore, you said mechanics.

Which is all Blizzard had to go on to make Dinomancers druids.

That and the fact that they were beasts, and that Zalandari lived with dinosaurs, so Zalandari Druids would be dinomancers.

Just like they don’t have abilities to support dinosaur forms but we got Zandalari druids.

Dinosaurs pretty much just claw and bite. We’re not missing anything. Meanwhile a spider form just doing bear abilities is missing quite a bit, as Elereth Renferal clearly demonstrates.

It’ll be a zone at most, won’t have an entire expansion based around Undermine.

Really? It was a planned continent in vanilla.

Nah we got nothing close to the dragon class you proposed.
You always said it was going to be a class only and the race was gonna be the visage.

Read the thread again. I said you’re a dragon, and Blizzard solves the race problem of you being a dragon by giving you visage forms for equipped gear. Surprise! That’s exactly what happened.

None of which are from Alexstraza’s kit.

Exuberance? Life Binder? Abundance (Emerald Blossum)?

So now you’re seeing how similar a lore Druid is to nerubians.
Good to know.

Lore Druids that we’ll never get to play as, so you might as well use their abilities for a more appropriate class.

[Ielenia]

Pot meet kettle.

You keep dodging the question: why is it so egregious that one singular race out of all the available races for a given class be given something unique?

And why does it matter when it's such a minuscule non-issue compared to the fact that Blizzard created a whole new class to give to a singular race?

And Demon Hunters can't look like Illidan or do everything he can do. The DH class is still based on him. Same applies to the Lich King and Death Knights.

This isn't about doing "everything" a specific NPC can do. This is about representation, and both the classes you mentioned more than adequately represent those NPCs.

[Nightshade711]

That and the fact that they were beasts, and that Zalandari lived with dinosaurs, so Zalandari Druids would be dinomancers.

According to the previous lore, Dinomancers were closer to hunters than druids (given they focus on controlling beasts) The only slight thing they had to druids was that they could turn into a Direhorn temporarily.

Yet Blizzard used that one ability to link druids to Zandalari.
Just like Blizzard will likely use the several abilities that we see lore druids use to give Undead Druids Nerubian/insect inspired forms.

Beetle (crypt lord) inspired tank form.
Spider (classic nerubian) inspired feral form.
Nerubian vizier styled caster form. (Or Mantid-inspired humanoid if they NEED wings)
The list goes on.

Dinosaurs pretty much just claw and bite. We’re not missing anything. Meanwhile a spider form just doing bear abilities is missing quite a bit, as Elereth Renferal clearly demonstrates.

Elerethe is still a Druid.

I guarantee nobody would care if they gave Druid nerubian inspired forms. Just like nobody cared about how none of the bear abilities really made sense for a turtle. (Ironfur for a turtle LOL)

Really? It was a planned continent in vanilla.

Yeah as a single zone. Doesn’t mean they’d base an entire expansion around it.

Lore Druids that we’ll never get to play as, so you might as well use their abilities for a more appropriate class.

Just like you said we’d never play as a Demon Hunter…
Or how blizzard would never make us play as humanoid dragonkin like Drakonids. Or how blizzard would never make us play as a “slave race”.
The list goes on.

[Teriz]

You keep dodging the question: why is it so egregious that one singular race out of all the available races for a given class be given something unique?

I've already answered this. It isn't fair to the other races in the class.

And why does it matter when it's such a minuscule non-issue compared to the fact that Blizzard created a whole new class to give to a singular race?

Because that's a new class. It's existence doesn't effect your current race class. For example, the inclusion of Evokers doesn't effect a NE Druid. Meanwhile, Forsaken getting a bonus, exclusive Druid form on top of their standard forms would effect an NE Druid a great deal.

This isn't about doing "everything" a specific NPC can do. This is about representation, and both the classes you mentioned more than adequately represent those NPCs.

Just like Dracthyr Evokers more than adequately represent the Draconic heroes of Warcraft.

[Triceron]

Then let's not compound multiple mistakes with another one.

How would Werebear customizations with updated animations be a mistake? All they need to do is adapt the same level of care and quality to a Crypt Lord's animations. Hell, if we get an Azjol expansion, we could probably expect a new model and updated skeleton, meaning they can hit two birds with one stone and have the NPC models and animations fit as a Guardian form. Much like how the new Arrakoa skeleton and animations were designed to allow Zandalari Boomkin Pterodactyl skin to work.

Azjol Nerub expansion could really solve a lot of these issues.