Crypt Lord class now possible thanks to Dracthyr Evokers?

[Teriz]

According to the previous lore, Dinomancers were closer to hunters than druids (given they focus on controlling beasts) The only slight thing they had to druids was that they could turn into a Direhorn temporarily.
Yet Blizzard used that one ability to link druids to Zandalari.
Just like Blizzard will likely use the several abilities that we see lore druids use to give Undead Druids Nerubian/insect inspired forms.

Link to this Dinomancer Druid with several abilities that Blizzard didn't translate over to Zalandari Druids please.

I find it odd that you can't simply see that it makes perfect

Beetle (crypt lord) inspired tank form.
Spider (classic nerubian) inspired feral form.
Nerubian vizier styled caster form. (Or Mantid-inspired humanoid if they NEED wings)
The list goes on.

That sounds absolutely terrible. The expectation will be to be able to actually perform Spider abilities, or abilities from the Crypt Lord. Imagine the complete disappointment when people find out that you're only doing standard Bear and Cat abilities. It would be like a mod done by an amateur instead of something actually added by the dev team.

The better option is to create a completely new class with unique and appropriate abilities.

Elerethe is still a Druid.

A Druid we can NEVER play as, so make a class that can properly house her abilities.

I guarantee nobody would care if they gave Druid nerubian inspired forms. Just like nobody cared about how none of the bear abilities really made sense for a turtle. (Ironfur for a turtle LOL)

There's a pretty vast difference between a Spider doing feral cat attacks and a Turtle model with the same skeleton as a Bear doing bear druid abilities.

Yeah as a single zone. Doesn’t mean they’d base an entire expansion around it.

Yeah, you couldn't be more wrong. However, this isn't a Tinker thread.

Just like you said we’d never play as a Demon Hunter…

Just like you said there’s no Evoker 3rd spec a few weeks ago?

Or how blizzard would never make us play as humanoid dragonkin like Drakonids.

I said Drakonoids, not humanoid dragons. Btw, you were wrong about that too.

Or how blizzard would never make us play as a “slave race”.
The list goes on.

Which the Dracthyr aren’t.

Does this mean you’re done attempting to compare Elereth’s abilities to playable Druids?



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How would Werebear customizations with updated animations be a mistake?

You said that the Werebear's model doesn't fit Druid Bear attacks.

In other words, a mistake that doesn't need to be repeated.

Azjol Nerub expansion could really solve a lot of these issues.

Yes, by giving us a Nerubian class with appropriate abilities.

[Nightshade711]

Link to this Dinomancer Druid with several abilities that Blizzard didn't translate over to Zalandari Druids please.

Given that a simple google search says that Dinomancers specialize in CONTROLLING dinosaurs….
And that they only have one ability to turn into a direhorn before BfA…

That sounds absolutely terrible. The expectation will be to be able to actually perform Spider abilities, or abilities from the Crypt Lord. Imagine the complete disappointment when people find out that you're only doing standard Bear and Cat abilities. It would be like a mod done by an amateur instead of something actually added by the dev team.

That MIGHT be the case if there was ever a demand for a playable Nerubian class.

But there’s not. Just like there’s no demand for “dinosaur abilities” for a Zandalari Druid.

A Druid we can NEVER play as, so make a class that can properly house her abilities.

“Make a new class to house a lore Druids abilities”
Lol.

By your logic Blizzard should’ve created a whole new class for Druids of the Flame instead of just giving druids a flame cat form.

There's a pretty vast difference between a Spider doing feral cat attacks and a Turtle model with the same skeleton as a Bear doing bear druid abilities.

Skeletons don’t even matter for druids. Didn’t matter for Werebear, Saberon, or Arakkoa forms.

Yeah, you couldn't be more wrong. However, this isn't a Tinker thread.

I don’t see them making 3-5 zones around Undermine.
I won’t be surprised if Undermine just ends up being a dungeon just like Azjol-nerub was.

[Ielenia]

I've already answered this. It isn't fair to the other races in the class.

Was it unfair when Blizzard unveiled that Zandalari druids turn into dinosaurs instead of the usual bears and cats that all the other druids at the time (night elf, worgen, tauren and troll) had?

No, it wasn't. Just like it wouldn't be unfair at all if forsaken druids get to turn into nerubians as their shapeshifted forms for Guardian and Feral.

Because that's a new class.

Which is a bajillion levels worse in terms of exclusivity. That's like you being jealous because your younger brother got a limited edition Hotwheels toy, when you got a brand new actual car.

It's existence doesn't effect your current race class.

Neither would forsaken druids turning into nerubians affect the class for the other races. Just like Zandalari druids turning into dinosaurs did not affect the rest of the races that could be druids.

Forsaken getting a bonus, exclusive Druid form on top of their standard forms would effect an NE Druid a great deal.

How would it affect non-forsaken druids? Please explain in a way that wouldn't be also equally applied to how Zandalari druids can turn into dinosaurs but NE druids are restricted to cats and bears.

Just like Dracthyr Evokers more than adequately represent the Draconic heroes of Warcraft.

Except not really? Their bodies don't "adequately" represent dragons, and their visage forms also don't adequately represent dragons. For example: unlike Kalecgos, the dracthyr cannot have a human visage. Unlike many female dragons with a blood elf visage, the female dracthyr cannot take on a BE visage. The dracthyr cannot take on a night elf visage, etc, etc.

[Teriz]

Given that a simple google search says that Dinomancers specialize in CONTROLLING dinosaurs….
And that they only have one ability to turn into a direhorn before BfA…

No examples then? Okay.

That MIGHT be the case if there was ever a demand for a playable Nerubian class.

If there’s demand for a nerubian expansion, there will be demand for a Nerubian class.

“Make a new class to house a lore Druids abilities”
Lol.

Please explain how Blizzard will incorporate Elereth or Crypt Lord abilities into the Druid class.

A nerubian class can house both easily.

By your logic Blizzard should’ve created a whole new class for Druids of the Flame instead of just giving druids a flame cat form.

Uh no, because there’s not enough material to build a class around Druids of the flame.

Skeletons don’t even matter for druids. Didn’t matter for Werebear, Saberon, or Arakkoa forms.

Really? According to @Triceron none of those fit Druid abilities.

I don’t see them making 3-5 zones around Undermine.
I won’t be surprised if Undermine just ends up being a dungeon just like Azjol-nerub was.

Uh, just base the zones on sections of a city:

Seaside/Harbor, Downtown, the slums/the mines, the tinker union/industrial district, uptown, the sewers, etc.

[Triceron]

Really? According to @Triceron none of those fit Druid abilities.

Don't lump me into that nonsense lol.

Druids work with any animations. Why would skeletons matter?

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You said that the Werebear's model doesn't fit Druid Bear attacks.

In other words, a mistake that doesn't need to be repeated.

Nope, not what I said at all. Bring up a quote and I'll clarify if you need.

Why would I be arguing against werebear animations? The non-bear animations are the whole point of why I think Crypt Lords could work.

Guardian Druid attacks with whatever model they happen to be using at the time, and it's not always a Bear animation. Werebears use Werebear attsck animations, Human with Staff uses Staff melee animations, thus a Crypt Lord would use Crypt Lord animations, not bear attacks. You don't see Humans and Werebears on all 4's doing swipes with their arms.

It would be silly to adapt Bear animations to a Crypt Lord when its own anims are perfectly usable.

[Nightshade711]

No examples then? Okay.

Sorry it’s so hard to google “Dinomancer” and read the first result.

If there’s demand for a nerubian expansion, there will be demand for a Nerubian class.

There already was demand for a Nerubian expansion, you even linked the fan concept.

I’ve never seen anyone asking for a Nerubian class except you.
At most I’ve seen people talk about a race. (But more particularly for Mantid)

Please explain how Blizzard will incorporate Elereth or Crypt Lord abilities into the Druid class.

We’ve all explained this before.
You just can’t see past “oh bear or cat skeleton” despite that never being an issue before.

If class skins are ever made it’ll be an easy thing to do. Call it “Druid of the nightmare” that specializes in turning into insects and replaces spell visuals.

Given Ion mentioned cosmetic glyphs in his last interview it wouldn’t surprise me if they did something like that next expansion instead of a new class or race.

Really? According to @Triceron none of those fit Druid abilities.

Wrong.

Uh, just base the zones on sections of a city:

Seaside/Harbor, Downtown, the slums/the mines, the tinker union/industrial district, uptown, the sewers, etc.

Those are going to be some REALLY small zones then.
I don’t see how any of that could have any form of variety to encompass even one dragonflight sized zone.

[Teriz]

Was it unfair when Blizzard unveiled that Zandalari druids turn into dinosaurs instead of the usual bears and cats that all the other druids at the time (night elf, worgen, tauren and troll) had?

No, it wasn't. Just like it wouldn't be unfair at all if forsaken druids get to turn into nerubians as their shapeshifted forms for Guardian and Feral.

We're not talking about their base Bear and Cat form. We're talking about Forsaken getting an additional customizable Druid skin on TOP of their Bear and Cat forms.

Which is a bajillion levels worse in terms of exclusivity. That's like you being jealous because your younger brother got a limited edition Hotwheels toy, when you got a brand new actual car.

Well no, because you can simply roll or not play the new class. If you're a Druid, a new class doesn't effect you.

Neither would forsaken druids turning into nerubians affect the class for the other races. Just like Zandalari druids turning into dinosaurs did not affect the rest of the races that could be druids.

Sure it would. Why should Forsaken get an additional Nerubian skin on top of their standard Bear and Cat forms?

Except not really? Their bodies don't "adequately" represent dragons, and their visage forms also don't adequately represent dragons.

Both opinions.

For example: unlike Kalecgos, the dracthyr cannot have a human visage.

Actually since Kalecgos has elf ears, it's rather easy for Dracthyr to emulate Kalecgos' visage form.

In any case, you're simply talking about gameplay restrictions.

[Nightshade711]

We're not talking about their base Bear and Cat form. We're talking about Forsaken getting an additional customizable Druid skin on TOP of their Bear and Cat forms.

Sure it would. Why should Forsaken get an additional Nerubian skin on top of their standard Bear and Cat forms?

Nobody has ever said Undead Druids would get separate Nerubian forms ON TOP of their bear/cat forms?

We’re saying they’d get Nerubian inspired forms AS their Guardian/Feral/Balance/Travel forms.
(Or that all druids as a whole would get them as glyphs.)

[Ielenia]

We're not talking about their base Bear and Cat form. We're talking about Forsaken getting an additional customizable Druid skin on TOP of their Bear and Cat forms.

So would it be okay to you if nerubians were the forsaken druid's base Guardian, Feral and Balance forms, then?

Well no, because you can simply roll or not play the new class. If you're a Druid, a new class doesn't effect you.

By that logic, all you'd have to do is race-change to forsaken to use those customizations. Simple as that. It's even better nowadays since we have cross-faction guilds so even if you have to faction-change to get to forsaken, you'll still remain in the same guild.

Sure it would. Why should Forsaken get an additional Nerubian skin on top of their standard Bear and Cat forms?

Why shouldn't they? How would it affect the other druid races? You keep saying this is wrong, that the other races would be negatively affected, but you never go into any kind of specifics as to how.

Both opinions.

As much an opinion as your claim that the dracthyr adequately represents dragons. No more, no less.

Actually since Kalecgos has elf ears, it's rather easy for Dracthyr to emulate Kalecgos' visage form.

Except... they can't. All male dracthyr's visages use the blood/high elf male model, not the human one. So a male dracthyr cannot make himself "be like" Kalecgos or Wrathion. Similarly, the female dracthyr's visages use the human female model. So a female dracthyr cannot "be like" Alextrasza or Ysera or Chromie.

In any case, you're simply talking about gameplay restrictions.

Actually, no. It's a lore thing:

[Teriz]

Sorry it’s so hard to google “Dinomancer” and read the first result.

You're talking about the Trolls who pretty much have druid abilities? One of their abilities is Regrowth.....

There already was demand for a Nerubian expansion, you even linked the fan concept.

I’ve never seen anyone asking for a Nerubian class except you.
At most I’ve seen people talk about a race. (But more particularly for Mantid)

Yeah, because again no one knew a path to a Nerubian class until now.

We’ve all explained this before.
You just can’t see past “oh bear or cat skeleton” despite that never being an issue before.

If class skins are ever made it’ll be an easy thing to do. Call it “Druid of the nightmare” that specializes in turning into insects and replaces spell visuals.

Class skins aren't happening. It would require far too many art assets.

Those are going to be some REALLY small zones then.
I don’t see how any of that could have any form of variety to encompass even one dragonflight sized zone.

You don't see how a Downtown area with tall buildings would contrast with a Nature reserve/park zone full of animals both natural and mutated contrasting still with dark, dank slums full of sewers and tunnels? And yeah, those zones can be huge.

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Nobody has ever said Undead Druids would get separate Nerubian forms ON TOP of their bear/cat forms?

We’re saying they’d get Nerubian inspired forms AS their Guardian/Feral/Balance/Travel forms.
(Or that all druids as a whole would get them as glyphs.)

Oh, well then this was all pointless then, because there's zero chance Blizzard would give Forsaken Nerubian forms. They'll get something like this;

[Nightshade711]

You're talking about the Trolls who pretty much have druid abilities? One of their abilities is Regrowth.....

Yeah because you’re looking at the Dinomancers from BfA, where they reworked them into druids.

Yeah, because again no one knew a path to a Nerubian class until now.

All hail Prophet Teriz, the first person to say “hm what if this WC3 hero became a class” lol.

Class skins aren't happening. It would require far too many art assets.

You don’t know that.
Blizzard knows it’s something the community wants so they could have been working on it. (Especially since they’ve been asked about cosmetic spell visuals a LOT this expansion)

You don't see how a Downtown area with tall buildings would contrast with a Nature reserve/park zone full of animals both natural and mutated contrasting still with dark, dank slums full of sewers and tunnels? And yeah, those zones can be huge.

Good luck stretching all of this out into even a single dragonflight sized zone. Even Suramar could barely do it and it’s whole thing was being a zone sized city that wasn’t a main hub.

[Teriz]

So would it be okay to you if nerubians were the forsaken druid's base Guardian, Feral and Balance forms, then?

No, because it wouldn't make sense. However, that wouldn't upset the apple cart as badly as them getting additional forms over other druids.

With that said, it appears that what is being proposed is nonsense anyway, since Forsaken wouldn't get Nerubian forms, they'd tainted animal forms instead.

[Ielenia]

No, because it wouldn't make sense.

Why wouldn't it make sense? Crypt lords and nerubians have undead versions and would fit the forsaken more than a bear or cat.

since Forsaken wouldn't get Nerubian forms,

You don't know that. That's like saying Zandalari trolls wouldn't get dinosaur forms, they'd get bears and cats like the other druids.

[Teriz]

Yeah because you’re looking at the Dinomancers from BfA, where they reworked them into druids.

The other Dinomancer from before MoP had a healing beam for a boss, and a physical damage boost in dino-form which could easily be attributed to Cat form's physical damage buff.

Nothing major.

You don’t know that.

So you don't think reskinning several abilities in a class for multiple races wouldn't require a ton of additional (unnecessary) work every patch and every expansion for pretty low payoff?

Good luck stretching all of this out into even a single dragonflight sized zone. Even Suramar could barely do it and it’s whole thing was being a zone sized city that wasn’t a main hub.

Designing a Goblin city in that manner is easier to do than an Elven city.

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Why wouldn't it make sense? Crypt lords and nerubians have undead versions and would fit the forsaken more than a bear or cat.

Because Nerubians aren't beasts, and Crypt Lords are hero characters with unique abilities. It'd be like giving Druids a dragon form that can't fly, use its tail, use aspect magic, or shoot fire from its mouth.

You don't know that. That's like saying Zandalari trolls wouldn't get dinosaur forms, they'd get bears and cats like the other druids.

Zalandari are in constant contact with dinosaurs. Forsaken are not in constant contact with Nerubians. Also dinosaurs are beasts, nerubians are not, they're sentient and highly intelligent like the mortal races. Again, it'd be like a Druid turning into a Dragon, Mantid, or a Mogu. Doesn't make sense.

[Nightshade711]

The other Dinomancer from before MoP had a healing beam for a boss, and a physical damage boost in dino-form which could easily be attributed to Cat form's physical damage buff.

Nothing major.

Also missing the wide variety of other Dinomancers that don’t transform but instead use their magic to control Dinosaurs. Just like Hunters.

So you don't think reskinning several abilities in a class for multiple races wouldn't require a ton of additional (unnecessary) work every patch and every expansion for pretty low payoff?

How would it be low payoff?

Doesn’t seem to be that much work for warlock Green Fire and it’s practically the same thing.

Arguably it’s more work for them to make a new class with 2-3 specs (especially given the new talent trees) and to then balance each and every talent and ability for the class.

Whereas with class skins the artists just throw together some new visuals if there’s a new spell.
Except this time new visuals they’re making actually stay after the expansion… unlike most artifact traits, Azerite traits/essences, covenant abilities… etc etc etc.

Designing a Goblin city in that manner is easier to do than an Elven city.

If you say so.
I just don’t see them making an entire continent the size of the Dragon Isles as an entire city. Which is why I said it’d be a single zone at most.

Because Nerubians aren't beasts, and Crypt Lords are hero characters with unique abilities. It'd be like giving Druids a dragon form that can't fly, use its tail, use aspect magic, or shoot fire from its mouth.

Insects are beasts and there are several times in lore where Druids turn into insects. (Even with a raid boss doing so using a Nerubian skeleton/model)
Even playable druids now can have an insect flight form.

Forsaken would just have Nerubian inspired insect forms and blizzard could make up whatever lore they want to justify.
“Oh hey we’re druids focusing more on the ‘death’ side of the cycle of life and death.” Boom, Undead Druids.

“But where there is death, there is also life! An inescapable cycle, as sure as the sea is vast! No creature can thwart it for long.”

[Mecheon]

Why wouldn't it make sense? Crypt lords and nerubians have undead versions and would fit the forsaken more than a bear or cat.

Nerubians aren't relevant to the Forsaken though. Like, I love Nerubians, but there's basically no hope of them becoming playable either way

Nerubians are one of the undead groups that specifically didn't end up with the Forsaken from what we've seen

[Ielenia]

Because Nerubians aren't beasts,

They don't have to be?

and Crypt Lords are hero characters with unique abilities.

So what?

It'd be like giving Druids a dragon form that can't fly, use its tail, use aspect magic, or shoot fire from its mouth.

You mean... like the Vial of Sands? We can fly with it, yes, but we can't use tail attacks, dragon magic, or shoot fire from its mouth.

Zalandari are in constant contact with dinosaurs. Forsaken are not in constant contact with Nerubians.

So? They would if they came into contact with nerubians who would be willing to teach their magic. Just like goblins who were rarely (if ever) in contact with shamans back in Kezan can be shamans today.

Also dinosaurs are beasts, nerubians are not, they're sentient and highly intelligent like the mortal races. Again, it'd be like a Druid turning into a Dragon, Mantid, or a Mogu. Doesn't make sense.

Shaman can turn into ascendants, which are intelligent elementals. Demon hunters can turn into demons, which are intelligent. Besides, I don't see how the whole "intelligence" argument is supposed to work, here.

[ManjiSanji]

I don't think this will ever happen, but I want it more than anything.

New expansion should be Old God-based in some way, and this would be the perfect thing to do with it.

[Teriz]

Also missing the wide variety of other Dinomancers that don’t transform but instead use their magic to control Dinosaurs. Just like Hunters.

But why is that relevant? Blizzard purposely altered Dinomancers to fit into the Druid class. That can't be done with Nerubians.

How would it be low payoff?

Because it wouldn't greatly increase the number of players. Players would just view it as a neat gimmick and eventually ignore it. Blizzard would then be stuck with having to do ability animations multiple times over each expansion. Imagine having to do the animation for Flash of Light 5 times and come up with an icon for each version. That's several times the work for a spell that most Paladin players aren't going to care about.

Doesn’t seem to be that much work for warlock Green Fire and it’s practically the same thing.

Because that's one class. Multiply that by several times over several races and abilities, and hopefully you start to see the problem.

Arguably it’s more work for them to make a new class with 2-3 specs (especially given the new talent trees) and to then balance each and every talent and ability for the class.

Whereas with class skins the artists just throw together some new visuals if there’s a new spell.
Except this time new visuals they’re making actually stay after the expansion… unlike most artifact traits, Azerite traits/essences, covenant abilities… etc etc etc.

It's not only new spells, it's the old spells too. Also if you want to remove spells and bring in more new spells, then you need to do art for the new spell. If a new race is added, you may be redrawing several spells, and you workload has just increased by several fold. Then you have to make sure all the animation and art you did doesn't effect the balance of the class.

Conversely, you could be putting that effort into a new class or adjusting the classes you have.

Insects are beasts and there are several times in lore where Druids turn into insects. (Even with a raid boss doing so using a Nerubian skeleton/model)
Even playable druids now can have an insect flight form.

Forsaken would just have Nerubian inspired insect forms and blizzard could make up whatever lore they want to justify.
“Oh hey we’re druids focusing more on the ‘death’ side of the cycle of life and death.” Boom, Undead Druids.

And no insect abilities, so it would suck. Again, Blizzard wouldn't do that. They'll just do this;



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They don't have to be?

So what?

You mean... like the Vial of Sands? We can fly with it, yes, but we can't use tail attacks, dragon magic, or shoot fire from its mouth.

You're comparing a combat form to a mount?

So? They would if they came into contact with nerubians who would be willing to teach their magic. Just like goblins who were rarely (if ever) in contact with shamans back in Kezan can be shamans today.

But even that doesn't make sense, because a Forsaken turning into a Nerubian wouldn't have any Nerubian abilities, it would be standard Druid abilities. It'd be like a Rogue with a Blindfold and the Twin Warglaives of Azzinoth pretending to be a Demon Hunter. Sorry, but you're just a Rogue in a costume.

Shaman can turn into ascendants, which are intelligent elementals. Demon hunters can turn into demons, which are intelligent. Besides, I don't see how the whole "intelligence" argument is supposed to work, here.

Those are entirely different classes. Druids turn into Beasts, Moonkin, and variations of trees. We have a tainted bear form. Why wouldn't a Forsaken druid just turn into that? No convoluted lore necessary, and it actually makes sense within the class.

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I don't think this will ever happen, but I want it more than anything.

New expansion should be Old God-based in some way, and this would be the perfect thing to do with it.

Just curious, what would you prefer? The more caster-style spec (Crypt Lord tank form, RDPS caster, Healing caster), or the more Druid-style spec (Crypt Lord tank form, Ranged Mantid/Crypt Lord form (RDPS), Spider form (RDPS or Healing))?

[Nightshade711]

But why is that relevant? Blizzard purposely altered Dinomancers to fit into the Druid class. That can't be done with Nerubians.

And no insect abilities, so it would suck. Again, Blizzard wouldn't do that. They'll just do this;

They had no need to alter Dinomancers to make them Druids.
They could’ve still gotten Druids inspired from their Loa
No dinosaur abilities for Zandalari. They could’ve just done this.

Because it wouldn't greatly increase the number of players. Players would just view it as a neat gimmick and eventually ignore it. Blizzard would then be stuck with having to do ability animations multiple times over each expansion. Imagine having to do the animation for Flash of Light 5 times and come up with an icon for each version. That's several times the work for a spell that most Paladin players aren't going to care about.

Same can be said for Warlock Green Fire. Artifact skins, the EXTENSIVE dragon customization for dragonriding (that’s not even usable outside of DF and Blizzard wasn’t even sure if they were gonna continue dragonriding after DF) etc etc.

Because that's one class. Multiply that by several times over several races and abilities, and hopefully you start to see the problem.

Yet you conveniently ignore the almost countless other spell visuals and abilities that they put so much work into just to be abandoned over an expansion. (Throwback to all the rank 4 cosmetic essences that weren’t even seen after BfA)

Whereas with class skins they can make it evergreen content that lasts forever, sort of like Warlock green fire.
Tie it into content and it’ll be an easy win.

It's not only new spells, it's the old spells too. Also if you want to remove spells and bring in more new spells, then you need to do art for the new spell. If a new race is added, you may be redrawing several spells, and you workload has just increased by several fold.

You don’t need a new class skin for every single race/class combo lol.

Then you have to make sure all the animation and art you did doesn't effect the balance of the class.

This won’t affect class balance lol. Warlock green fire never did. Neither did cosmetic glyphs

Conversely, you could be putting that effort into a new class or adjusting the classes you have.

In your opinion. This argument can be used for literally everything.
They also could’ve put all the effort for Dragonriding customization into racial customization for other races. They could’ve not added Evoker but instead focused on balancing existing classes… etc etc etc.