Crypt Lord class now possible thanks to Dracthyr Evokers?

[Teriz]

A movement ability is a movement ability.

So Charge is the same as Deep Breath?

A CC that incapacitates and roots is no different than others even if given a different graphic.

So Capacitor Totem is the same as Imprison?

You do understand that those abilities have completely different attributes and require completely different levels of balance right? You just can't swap Charge for Deep Breath in the Warrior class, it would completely upend how they play DESPITE both being movement abilities. Just like giving Guardian Druids Burrow Charge will completely change how they play.

HotS has skins that does this kind of ability swapping all the time. They aren't different abilities, they're graphical swaps.

This isn't HotS.

Again, what humanoid turns into a Cryptlord?
You're trying to equate cute anthropomorphic spider girls to Anub'arak.

Again, that's a straw man. You compared Zalandari Druid forms to a Forsaken getting a Crypt Lord form when the latter is actually a hero unit and character with its own set of abilities and the former are not. I am proposing a class that is humanoid in appearance and can fight in Crypt Lord form. That's the difference.

[Gurahk]

Considering the horrid visage forms for Dracthyr, I don't want to imagine the "visage" forms for these creatures.

[Triceron]

So Charge is the same as Deep Breath?

A Crypt Lord has neither ability.

They have a burrow movement which can be equivalent of Stealth in WoW.

So Capacitor Totem is the same as Imprison?

Again, Crypt Lord has neither.

Imprison functionally works the same as Cyclone. Make an enemy incapacitated and immune to damage for X seconds. All we're talking about is swapped visuals.

You do understand that those abilities have completely different attributes and require completely different levels of balance right? You just can't swap Charge for Deep Breath in the Warrior class, it would completely upend how they play DESPITE both being movement abilities.

But we're not talking about an existing class. Crypt Lords don't exist as a class, and have no abilities in WoW that work as they do in HOTS. We're not talking about swapping Charge for Deep Breath, we're talking about whether a Crypt Lord can be represented through Bear Form gameplay, if given new visuals for key abilities. My argument is it works fine for Zandalari and they still use nature and moon magic just the same. The fantasy of playing as a Dino form is still well retained.

This isn't HotS.

Right, which is why they don't need to have Burrow Charge and Imprison as abilities.

They can be ability skins and customizations.

Again, that's a straw man. You compared Zalandari Druid forms to a Forsaken getting a Crypt Lord form when the latter is actually a hero unit and character and the former are not. That's the difference. I am proposing a class that is humanoid in appearance and can fight in Crypt Lord form. That's the difference.

It's not a strawman when Anubarak is not a Humanoid in any stretch of the lore.

If you are talking about a humanoid taking the form of a Crypt Lord, you're effectively talking about a type of Druid. That is why Zandalari and Forsaken are part of this conversation. The concept you are describing has nothing to do with Anub'arak, merely satisfying the concept of playing as a Crypt Lord or Nerubian forms.

If you're going to dismiss my argument as a strawman, then you have to realize your own concept here isn't Anub'arak, it's a Humanoid taking the form of a Crypt Lord.

Just as easily, anyone can come out and say this concept is far removed from a Crypt Lord because of the existence of a Humanoid Visage. Nerubians don't have that sort of magic to them. Overall, shapeshifting is in the realm of Druids.

Hell you even mention this in your #2 Concept. My entire suggestion is built off what you presented here.

[Teriz]

Idk man. Take away the visuals and I don’t see how the gameplay loop is different.

The fact that the Crypt Lord has several summoned minions attacking the target should tell you something.

(Also shamans already have a ‘burrowing attack’ ability)

Druids aren't Shaman.

It’s like saying a Priest and Paladin are the same because they both use the light.
Or how a Demo lock and a Necromancer (the concepts based on summoning minions) are different because the difference in visuals.

Uh no because the Crypt Lord isn't using the same type of magic as the Druid, and isn't doing the same things a Druid does.

Have you ever seen a tiny crypt lord in World of Warcraft?

I haven’t, every crypt lord I’ve seen has been like this:

It's no different than going from Dragons to Dracthyr; Blizzard will make the Crypt Lord into a more playable size (and hopefully upgrade the model like the pics in the OP).

[Nightshade711]

So Charge is the same as Deep Breath?

One is an AOE damage cooldown ability, another is a gap-closer for a melee spec.

So Capacitor Totem is the same as Imprison?

One is an AOE stun, another is a incapacitate that’s broken on damage.

You do understand that those abilities have completely different attributes and require completely different levels of balance right? You just can't swap Charge for Deep Breath in the Warrior class, it would completely upend how they play DESPITE both being movement abilities. Just like giving Guardian Druids Burrow Charge will completely change how they play.

You’re looking at it too broad, but fail to see how a “cocoon” ability isn’t the same as Cyclone. As both are a channeled incapacitate ability.

You compared Zalandari Druid forms to a Forsaken getting a Crypt Lord form when the latter is actually a hero unit and character with its own set of abilities and the former are not. I am proposing a class that is humanoid in appearance and can fight in Crypt Lord form. That's the difference.

Undead druids getting nerubian inspired forms would make more sense than a “crypt lord” class/race.
The gameplay could fit at a minimum for Feral/Guardian… especially with the whole inspect swarm abilities they’ve got from that necrolord ability that was put in the talent trees.

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Uh no because the Crypt Lord isn't using the same type of magic as the Druid, and isn't doing the same things a Druid does.

Yeah, and Sunwalkers canonically aren’t using the same type of magic as Paladins but they’re represented through the Paladin class.

Also according to your OP…

Class Idea #2: The "Evil Druid" class

This idea revolves around the Crypt Lord operating mechanically like a Druid; You have your humanoid caster form with you racials, but each spec has its own corresponding Crypt Lord form. Some examples of these forms could be the following;

So why not just make them undead druids? If they operate mechanically like a Druid.

[Teriz]

A Crypt Lord has neither ability.

Stop moving goalposts. You said that a movement ability is a movement ability.

Again, Crypt Lord has neither.
.

Not the argument. Your argument was that a CC is a CC.

But we're not talking about an existing class. Crypt Lords don't exist as a class, and have no abilities in WoW that work as they do in HOTS. We're not talking about swapping Charge for Deep Breath, we're talking about whether a Crypt Lord can be represented through Bear Form gameplay, if given new visuals for key abilities. My argument is it works fine for Zandalari and they still use nature and moon magic just the same. The fantasy of playing as a Dino form is still well retained.

Again, stop shifting goalposts. You said that a movement ability is a movement ability. Thus via your argument, there's no difference between Charge and Deep Breath, they're just graphical swaps.

Right, which is why they don't need to have Burrow Charge and Imprison as abilities.

Except the Crypt Lords in WoW have also displayed abilities similar to Burrow Charge.

Also Imprison is a DH ability. No one is arguing that CLs should get it.

They can be ability skins and customizations.

Except they can't because as displayed by my two examples giving an existing class new abilities causes significant balance issues.

It's not a strawman when Anubarak is not a Humanoid in any stretch of the lore.

We're not talking about Anub 'Arak, we're talking about a proposed class that can turn into a Crypt Lord and use its abilities.

Again, let's stop moving goalposts.

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One is an AOE damage cooldown ability, another is a gap-closer for a melee spec.


One is an AOE stun, another is a incapacitate that’s broken on damage.

You didn't answer the question, both times.

Undead druids getting nerubian inspired forms would make more sense than a “crypt lord” class/race.

Again, no it wouldn't, because Nerubians have a set thematic and units like Crypt Lords have specific ability sets. Despite @Triceron's insistence, you can't just swap out animations for abilities and pretend that there will be no balance issues involved. Changing an ability from Parabola into an instant straight beam for example can cause balance issues. The other problem is that the Druid class' abilities don't fit the Crypt Lord or the Nerubian thematic, so unless you're going to reskin and rename the entire Druid ability and talent set, you're fooling yourself if you think it makes more sense than simply making a new class.

Yeah, and Sunwalkers canonically aren’t using the same type of magic as Paladins but they’re represented through the Paladin class.

Good lord....

Sunwalkers didn't have established abilities before they were introduced as a type of paladin. Also it kind of helps that they use the same school of magic.

So why not just make them undead druids? If they operate mechanically like a Druid.

See above.

[Triceron]

Stop moving goalposts. You said that a movement ability is a movement ability.

If you actually quote the rest of the response, then it's easy to acknowledge that my comment is directly addressing your statements, no goal post moved.

Again, stop shifting goalposts. You said that a movement ability is a movement ability. Thus via your argument, there's no difference between Charge and Deep Breath, they're just graphical swaps.

See, that would be a shifted goalpost.

You are equating two abilities that function completely differently.

Burrow Charge and Charge and Feral Charge are effectively the same thing, regardless of the nuance differences. It does not necessitate a new class to represent a Crypt Lord with such ability. We're not talking about something wildly different like Deep Breath.

Except the Crypt Lords in WoW have also displayed abilities similar to Burrow Charge.

Sure, and not every NPC deserves to be playable classes either.

Also Imprison is a DH ability. No one is arguing that CLs should get it.

Then no need to make strawman arguments, right Teriz?

Again, let's stop moving goalposts.

Right.

Crypt Lord can be a Druid cosmetic. Period. No goal post being moved.

[Nightshade711]

You didn't answer the question, both times.

Didn’t answer the question by pointing out how mechanically those examples you gave are completely different, regardless of visuals?

Again, no it wouldn't, because Nerubians have a set thematic and units like Crypt Lords have specific ability sets. Despite @Triceron's insistence, you can't just swap out animations for abilities and pretend that there will be no balance issues involved. Changing an ability from Parabola into an instant straight beam for example can cause balance issues. The other problem is that the Druid class' abilities don't fit the Crypt Lord or the Nerubian thematic, so unless you're going to reskin and rename the entire Druid ability and talent set, you're fooling yourself if you think it makes more sense than simply making a new class.

Idk man, warlock’s Green Fire and the various glyphs that change visuals & animations prove that changing visuals do not matter. (Also Ion’s comments about cosmetic glyphs)
Blizzard doesn’t need to change anything mechanically about the Druid abilities if they give Undead Druids crypt lord forms.

Feral’s ability “adaptive swarm” fits perfectly for an Undead Druid using Nerubian forms. Literally sending swarms of insects at an enemy lmao.

Good lord....

Sunwalkers didn't have established abilities before they were introduced as a type of paladin. Also it kind of helps that they use the same school of magic.

Sunwalkers use sun magic, they’re basically melee versions of solar balance druids. Last I checked, balance druids don’t use holy magic when channeling the sun.

[Teriz]

If you actually quote the rest of the response, then it's easy to acknowledge that my comment is directly addressing your statements, no goal post moved.

Where did you answer if Charge and Deep Breath are the same ability? Saying that the Crypt Lord has neither is moving the goalposts.

See, that would be a shifted goalpost.

You are equating two abilities that function completely differently.

Because you said this;

A movement ability is a movement ability.

Both are movement abilities.

Burrow Charge and Charge and Feral Charge are effectively the same thing, regardless of the nuance differences. It does not necessitate a new class to represent a Crypt Lord with such ability. We're not talking about something wildly different like Deep Breath.

Burrow Charge deals damage and stuns. Feral Charge does not. That's not a nuance difference.

Sure, and not every NPC deserves to be playable classes either.

Straw Man. No one made that argument.

Then no need to make strawman arguments, right Teriz?

I'm not the one arguing that every ability in WoW is just a graphic swap of another ability.

Right.

Crypt Lord can be a Druid cosmetic. Period. No goal post being moved.

Only if you reskin, reanimate, rename, and rebalance the entire Druid class for one race. If you honestly think Blizzard is going to do that instead of simply making a new class, then you really don't understand how this game works.

[Nightshade711]

Only if you reskin, reanimate, rename, and rebalance the entire Druid class for one race. If you honestly think Blizzard is going to do that instead of simply making a new class, then you really don't understand how this game works.

Idk man, they didn’t need to do that for Sunwalkers.
They also didn’t need to do it for Zandalari Dinomancers…

[Teriz]

Didn’t answer the question by pointing out how mechanically those examples you gave are completely different, regardless of visuals?

No need to get snarky, it's a simple yes or no answer.

Idk man, warlock’s Green Fire and the various glyphs that change visuals & animations prove that changing visuals do not matter. (Also Ion’s comments about cosmetic glyphs)
Blizzard doesn’t need to change anything mechanically about the Druid abilities if they give Undead Druids crypt lord forms.

Cool, then tell me the Druid ability that will allow Druids to spawn up to 5 permanent beetle minions like the Crypt Lord does.

Feral’s ability “adaptive swarm” fits perfectly for an Undead Druid using Nerubian forms. Literally sending swarms of insects at an enemy lmao.

And what happens when Blizzard decides to remove Adaptive Swarm from the Druid class? Are the undead "druids" going to keep it all by themselves?

See how ridiculous this becomes?

Sunwalkers use sun magic, they’re basically melee versions of solar balance druids. Last I checked, balance druids don’t use holy magic when channeling the sun.

Again, Sunwalkers didn't have established abilities, so it doesn't matter. Crypt Lords DO have established abilities, so it DOES matter.

[Nightshade711]

Cool, then tell me the Druid ability that will allow Druids to spawn up to 5 permanent beetle minions like the Crypt Lord does.

Doesn’t the gameplay loop of summoning a bunch of minions already exist in the form Unholy DK, Demo lock, and BM hunter?”

“Show me the Druid ability of controlling dinosaurs” - Probable Teriz argument against adding Dinomancers in the form of Zandalari druids before BfA.

And what happens when Blizzard decides to remove Adaptive Swarm from the Druid class? Are the undead "druids" going to keep it all by themselves?

See how ridiculous this becomes?

Assuming they remove the ability anytime soon.

[Teriz]

Doesn’t the gameplay loop of summoning a bunch of minions already exist in the form Unholy DK, Demo lock, and BM hunter?”

“Show me the Druid ability of controlling dinosaurs” - Probable Teriz argument against adding Dinomancers in the form of Zandalari druids before BfA.

You're moving goalposts. You said that Druids were mechanically similar to Crypt Lords. If that's the case, give me the Druid equivalent to Scarab Beetle which passively summons up to 5 permanent beetles with varying levels of power and utility.

Assuming they remove the ability anytime soon.

Assuming they do, answer the question.

[Nightshade711]

You're moving goalposts. You said that Druids were mechanically similar to Crypt Lords. If that's the case, give me the Druid equivalent to Scarab Beetle which passively summons up to 5 permanent beetles with varying levels of power and utility.

Didn’t you yourself say in the OP they’d behave mechanically similar to druids too?

Besides, the crypt lord ability isn’t a passive in WC3. So it’d act similarly to the druids “force of nature” ability. But instead of treants you’ve got beetles.

Assuming they do, answer the question.

Then they’d still work.
Zandalari got only got druids because some Dinomancers could transform into dinosaurs, there’s no other connection to Druidism or any Druid abilities for them.

Which according to your OP, the same thing applies for crypt lords?

Class Idea #2: The "Evil Druid" class

This idea revolves around the Crypt Lord operating mechanically like a Druid; You have your humanoid caster form with you racials, but each spec has its own corresponding Crypt Lord form. Some examples of these forms could be the following;

[Triceron]

Where did you answer if Charge and Deep Breath are the same ability? Saying that the Crypt Lord has neither is moving the goalposts.

It's irrelevant to the topic.

You want Burrow Charge. i said it could be a glyph for Feral Charge, or even just ignored and allow Crypt Lord form to just Feral Charge.

A movement ability like Burrow Charge is just a movement ability like Feral Charge. Deep Breath would be moving the goalpost, and taking my comment out of context.

Straw Man. No one made that argument.

No one talked about NPCs. If we are talking about abilities in the game we are talking in the context of Player Characters. NPCs would equally be a strawman, since we are not justifying Crypt Lord NPCs with Humanoid Forms either.

I'm not the one arguing that every ability in WoW is just a graphic swap of another ability.

But many are, and many are considered to be more than just what the ability is by means of lore.

Gameplay is an abstraction of mechanics, some which are shared between classes with different graphics. Bloodlust and Timewarp aren't two different spells, for example.

Only if you reskin, reanimate, rename, and rebalance the entire Druid class for one race. If you honestly think Blizzard is going to do that instead of simply making a new class, then you really don't understand how this game works.

Or you customize the form and leave the rest be, like Zandalari doesn't change out mentions of bears or fur in talents.

[Teriz]

Didn’t you yourself say in the OP they’d behave mechanically similar to druids too?

Mechanically in terms of Shape shifting, not the entirety of the class.

Besides, the crypt lord ability isn’t a passive in WC3. So it’d act similarly to the druids “force of nature” ability. But instead of treants you’ve got beetles.

No, it was a toggle that summoned Beetles from corpses, and the Beetles were upgradable, permanent, and could burrow into the ground.

I'm pretty sure you can't do any of that with Force of Nature treants. That goes against your notion that nothing would need to change mechanically for Druids to become Crypt Lords.

Then they’d still work.

Well no they wouldn't, because then Blizzard would need to reskin, reanimate, and rebalance another Druid ability to make sure that Crypt Lords had their appropriate abilities.

Zandalari got only got druids because some Dinomancers could transform into dinosaurs, there’s no other connection to Druidism or any Druid abilities for them.

Which according to your OP, the same thing applies for crypt lords?

Uh Dinosaurs are beasts, so there isn't much difference between a four legged dinosaur and a bear. Hunters can tame dinosaurs for example.

Nerubians are not beasts, so its rather silly to make them into a class where you transform into a beast.

[Nightshade711]

Mechanically in terms of Shape shifting, not the entirety of the class.

So, exactly the justification for Dinomancers being druids.

No, it was a toggle that summoned Beetles from corpses, and the Beetles were upgradable, permanent, and could burrow into the ground.

I'm pretty sure you can't do any of that with Force of Nature treants. That goes against your notion that nothing would need to change mechanically for Druids to become Crypt Lords.

I think you’re also forgetting that 90% of abilities from WC3 are quite different from their current implementation in WoW.
Blood lust was an automatic cast for shamans in WC3 and only targeted specific allies and not everyone…

Well no they wouldn't, because then Blizzard would need to reskin, reanimate, and rebalance another Druid ability to make sure that Crypt Lords had their appropriate abilities.

I didn’t see them do that for Zandalari Dinomancers… or Kul Tiran thornspeakers… or Sunwalkers.

Uh Dinosaurs are beasts, so there isn't much difference between a four legged dinosaur and a bear. Hunters can tame dinosaurs for example.

“There isn’t much difference between a dinosaur and a bear” lmao

Nerubians are not beasts, so its rather silly to make them into a class where you transform into a beast.

Mechanically in terms of Shape shifting, not the entirety of the class.

Lol…

Also, Kul Tirans don’t turn into beasts. Just a bunch of plant monsters that vaguely resemble beasts.
When Mechagnome druids get added they likely won’t be turning into any beasts. Probably just different robotic constructs.

[Teriz]

It's irrelevant to the topic.

But not irrelevant to your notion that every movement ability in WoW is the same.

You want Burrow Charge. i said it could be a glyph for Feral Charge, or even just ignored and allow Crypt Lord form to just Feral Charge.

Again, Burrow Charge deals damage and it stuns, so you can't glyph that. Further it's a talent in the Druid class, whereas it would be a base ability for Crypt Lords.

A movement ability like Burrow Charge is just a movement ability like Feral Charge. Deep Breath would be moving the goalpost, and taking my comment out of context.

A movement ability that moves the character underground, is baseline, stuns, and damages.

Very much unlike Feral Charge.

No one talked about NPCs. If we are talking about abilities in the game we are talking in the context of Player Characters. NPCs would equally be a strawman, since we are not justifying Crypt Lord NPCs with Humanoid Forms either.

Crypt Lord NPCs in WoW would house abilities that would be added to a proposed Crypt Lord class, so yes they should be brought up. Just like the Evoker class received multiple dragon abilities from WoW NPCs.

Oh, and that would be a 4th set of abilities for the Crypt Lord class.

But many are, and many are considered to be more than just what the ability is by means of lore.

And they would be just as wrong as you are.

Or you customize the form and leave the rest be, like Zandalari doesn't change out mentions of bears or fur in talents.

Again, you can't do that with Crypt Lords because they have established abilities. Players wanting to play the Crypt Lord will expect those abilities in place when they roll it, and they're going to want those abilities to be part of a consistent thematic. You can only get that from a class.

[Triceron]

I think you’re also forgetting that 90% of abilities from WC3 are quite different from their current implementation in WoW.
Blood lust was an automatic cast for shamans in WC3 and only targeted specific allies and not everyone…

The way the argument is progressing, it's like saying we should have a Keeper of the Grove class that has a humanoid Visage, and saying it's not a druid because their Force of Nature ability in WC3 required Trees to be summoned while Druids mechanics summon then out of thin air.

[Nightshade711]

The way the argument is progressing, it's like saying we should have a Keeper of the Grove class that has a humanoid Visage, and saying it's not a druid because their Force of Nature ability in WC3 required Trees to be summoned while Druids mechanics summon then out of thin air.

Oh true. We also need a Warden class, they’re not Rogues because they can summon spirits of fallen allies and blink.

And a Blademaster class, they’re not Warriors because they can use mirror image and can go invisible.

Though probably more fitting would be a Dreadlord class/race.