Crypt Lord class now possible thanks to Dracthyr Evokers?

[Teriz]

So, exactly the justification for Dinomancers being druids.

Feel free to list Dinomancer abilities that existed for the concept before the introduction of Zandalari Druids.

I think you’re also forgetting that 90% of abilities from WC3 are quite different from their current implementation in WoW.
Blood lust was an automatic cast for shamans in WC3 and only targeted specific allies and not everyone…

That's not even remotely true, and you're moving goalposts. Typical.

I didn’t see them do that for Zandalari Dinomancers… or Kul Tiran thornspeakers… or Sunwalkers.

Because none of them had established abilities or thematics before they appeared as Paladins and Druids.

“There isn’t much difference between a dinosaur and a bear” lmao

Again, they're both beasts, so it makes sense that a Troll that can turn into a beast could be a Druid. It's the same thematic.

Lol…

Also, Kul Tirans don’t turn into beasts. Just a bunch of plant monsters that vaguely resemble beasts.

Kul Tiran Bear and Cat forms are still classified as beasts despite how they look.

When Mechagnome druids get added they likely won’t be turning into any beasts. Probably just different robotic constructs.

When? More like probably never.

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The way the argument is progressing, it's like saying we should have a Keeper of the Grove class that has a humanoid Visage, and saying it's not a druid because their Force of Nature ability in WC3 required Trees to be summoned while Druids mechanics summon then out of thin air.

Nah, you're just wildly off topic. Let's get back to discussing a possible Crypt Lord class. If you want to discuss class skins for established classes, make your own thread.

[Nightshade711]

Feel free to list Dinomancer abilities that existed for the concept before the introduction of Zandalari Druids.

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=138771/dino-form

That's not even remotely true, and you're moving goalposts. Typical.

Weird, I can’t summon an infernal for 180 seconds on a 180 second cooldown on my Warlock.
Nor can I have Immolation Aura active forever on my DH.
Nor can I cast Blood Lust on only one ally with a 1 sec cooldown on my Shaman.
Nor can I raise invulnerable dead on my Death Knight who retain the abilities they had before they died. (But with no mana)

The list goes on and on.
So, the chances of having any class with multiple (especially 6) minions permanently active as a toggle likely isn’t going to happen.
It’d probably work exactly like Force of Nature.

Because none of them had established abilities or thematics before they appeared as Paladins and Druids.

Wrong. Tauren worshipped An’she for a long time, probably for most of their history.

Kul Tiran Bear and Cat forms are still classified as beasts despite how they look.

Idk man, plants are completely different than animals.
Is the bank in Darnassus a bear just because it looks like one?

When? More like probably never.

Given that Blizzard is expanding most classes to all classes, it’s probably more likely than you think.

Especially since Ion even name dropped Goblin Druids in an interview…which Goblins are probably the last race that would be in tune with any form of nature.
Whereas at least Mechagnomes still had some form of mechanical garden in Mechagon.

[Triceron]

Nah, you're just wildly off topic. Let's get back to discussing a possible Crypt Lord class. If you want to discuss class skins for established classes, make your own thread.

Well I'm not the one who started arguing against redundancies here.

I said there's room for both. I'm not the one who started talking about how the concept had to be specific to anything, just that cosmetic glyphs could cover for certain abikities IF that is what you are asking for specifically for a Druid.

If not, then it'a fine if you want to ask for a class that is 90% a Druid in function, including the shapeshifting aspects. That's all fine as long as Blizzard is willing to go to the lengths of making it happen.

But the arguments you present against skins is just as applicable to your concept here. What you have isn't Anub'arak if you imply that they should have a sexy humanoid form just for the sake of fanservice. It'd be no different than having a Forsaken Druid perform the same function.

Again, you can't do that with Crypt Lords because they have established abilities. Players wanting to play the Crypt Lord will expect those abilities in place when they roll it, and they're going to want those abilities to be part of a consistent thematic. You can only get that from a class.

Then they'll have to wait for it.

In the meantime, Forsaken Druid with cosmetics would be a fine workaround that satisfies quite a big chunk of the fantasy.

Just like an Evoker doesn't give you everything you want out of playing as an actual Dragon, but does enough to approximate the fantasy. Same with High Elf customizations for Void Elf.

People are gonna complain regardless, like the lack of actual playable High Elves or Dragons. That tends to be the extreme vocal minority, while most people are happy with the customizations we've got

[Teriz]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=138771/dino-form

Which looks similar to the bonus you get from Cat Form.

Weird, I can’t summon an infernal for 180 seconds on a 180 second cooldown on my Warlock.
Nor can I have Immolation Aura active forever on my DH.
Nor can I cast Blood Lust on only one ally with a 1 sec cooldown on my Shaman.
Nor can I raise invulnerable dead on my Death Knight who retain the abilities they had before they died. (But with no mana)

The list goes on and on.
So, the chances of having any class with multiple (especially 6) minions permanently active as a toggle likely isn’t going to happen.
It’d probably work exactly like Force of Nature.

Well no. More than likely they’ll use the HotS ability Scarab Host where the Crypt Lord spawned a beetle everytime it used an ability. Given that Exuberance, Chrono Loop, The Hunt, and Wailing Arrow recently arrived from HotS intact, I’d say that Scarab Host has a great chance of entering WoW intact.

So, which Druid ability is mechanically identical to Scarab Hist?

Wrong. Tauren worshipped An’she for a long time, probably for most of their history.

That’s lore created to justify Tauren Paladin. Again, completely different from having a hero unit with several unique abilities.

Idk man, plants are completely different than animals.
Is the bank in Darnassus a bear just because it looks like one?

Not really relevant since they made them that way to justify Kul Titan Druids. This is yet another irrelevant example to what we’re talking about.

Given that Blizzard is expanding most classes to all classes, it’s probably more likely than you think.

It’s not a given. Blizzard has never confirmed that was going to happen.

But again, what you’re saying here is completely irrelevant to the topic of a potential Crypt Lord class. The chances of Blizzard making Crypt Lords a Druid form is pretty close to zero.

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Well I'm not the one who started arguing redundancies here.

I said there's room for both. I'm not the one who started talking about how the concept had to be specific to anything, just that cosmetic glyphs could cover for certain abikities IF that is what you are asking for specifically for a Druid.

If not, then it'a fine if you want to ask for a class that is 90% a Druid in function, including the shapeshifting aspects. That's all fine as long as Blizzard is willing to go to the lengths of making it happen.

There’s not room for both. Blizzard isn’t going to implement a glyph for an entire class. It’ll take far too much effort, require far too much balancing, and wouldn’t satisfy the people who would be interested in it.

But the arguments you present against skins is just as applicable to your concept here. What you have isn't Anub'arak if you imply that they should have a sexy humanoid form just for the sake of fanservice. It'd be no different than having a Forsaken Druid perform the same function.

Which goes to show that you didn’t fully read my OP. I used those images because they’re art showcasing a humanoid with insect legs, showing how Blizzard could make the class look in humanoid form. It’s not for “fan service”, it’s merely a vehicle to allow players to be a functional character that can wear armor, use mounts, and wield weapons. Just like Dracthyr did for Dragons.

Also if you actually read the OP, you’d noticed that I had two class concepts; One where you have one spec transform into a crypt lord, and the others are casters in humanoid form, and the other is more Druid like where all three specs turn into insect monsters like the Crypt Lord.

[Triceron]

There’s not room for both. Blizzard isn’t going to implement a glyph for an entire class. It’ll take far too much effort, require far too much balancing, and wouldn’t satisfy the people who would be interested in it.

Dark Ranger already have this. Are they not a class? Does it need balancing?

It's just a customization, and it's open to anyone who wants to make Darkfallen versions of their characters on top of being Dark Rangers

And dunno about you, but I think the customizations were quite well received

Which goes to show that you didn’t fully read my OP. I used those images because they’re art showcasing a humanoid with insect legs, showing how Blizzard could make the class look in humanoid form. It’s not for “fan service”, it’s merely a vehicle to allow players to be a functional character that can wear armor, use mounts, and wield weapons. Just like Dracthyr did for Dragons.

Also if you actually read the OP, you’d noticed that I had two class concepts; One where you have one spec transform into a crypt lord, and the others are casters in humanoid form, and the other is more Druid like where all three specs turn into insect monsters like the Crypt Lord.

I read it. It's not consistent with your arguments of wanting to be Anub'arak. Anub'arak doesn't have a humanoid form, the concept is very distanced from him much like it would be equating Druids to actual Keeper of the Grove. You aren't playing Keepers either, even if you had a glyph for it. But having the customization option would go a long way to satisfying the demand to play as one.

If we are discussing playing a class that is actually a Crypt Lord, then neither a Druid nor Humanoid Visage would make sense. This is more up a Dreadlord's alley than a Cryptlord.

We had the same problem with Warlocks with Demonform being equated to Demon Hunters

[Nightshade711]

I read it. It's not consistent with your arguments of wanting to be Anub'arak. Anub'arak doesn't have a humanoid form, the concept is very distanced from him much like it would be equating Druids to actual Keeper of the Grove. You aren't playing Keepers either, even if you had a glyph for it. But having the customization option would go a long way to satisfying the demand to play as one.

If we are discussing playing a class that is actually a Crypt Lord, then neither a Druid nor Humanoid Visage would make sense. This is more up a Dreadlord's alley than a Cryptlord.

You know, you could honestly knock out a lot of potential class ideas depending on how much blizzard will let us customize spells in the future. Not even limited to just Crypt Lords.

I could honestly see even a class like Tinker being fulfilled with Gnome/Goblin druids if their “forms” were essentially just mech suits if blizzard REALLY wanted to stretch it. Resto would be the only iffy spec, but that didn’t stop void elf priests.

[Teriz]

Dark Ranger already have this. Are they not a class? Does it need balancing?

It's just a customization, and it's open to anyone who wants to make Darkfallen versions of their characters on top of being Dark Rangers

And dunno about you, but I think the customizations were quite well received

The difference is that the Hunter class has long housed Dark Ranger abilities, so the Hunter class getting a Dark Ranger customization wasn’t an issue. Dark Rangers needed minimal abilities in the Hunter class because they were always essentially just undead hunters.

Crypt Lords aren’t Druids.

I read it. It's not consistent with your arguments of wanting to be Anub'arak. Anub'arak doesn't have a humanoid form, the concept is very distanced from him much like it would be equating Druids to actual Keeper of the Grove. You aren't playing Keepers either, even if you had a glyph for it. But having the customization option would go a long way to satisfying the demand to play as one.

If we are discussing playing a class that is actually a Crypt Lord, then neither a Druid nor Humanoid Visage would make sense. This is more up a Dreadlord's alley than a Cryptlord.

We had the same problem with Warlocks with Demonform being equated to Demon Hunters

Again, the humanoid form is just a vehicle to make the class fit with WoW’s playable racial structure. Nothing about being able to disguise yourself as a humanoid contradicts the notion of the concept; which is to be a powerful nerubian that can turn into a crypt lord, or use vast summoning magic to terrorize your enemy. We have multiple races that use a humanoid form to hide their more monstrous appearance. Why should this be any different?

[Triceron]

Crypt Lords aren’t Druids.

What you've described in your #2 class concept? It's a druid.

So....

Again, the humanoid form is just a vehicle to make the class fit with WoW’s playable racial structure. Nothing about being able to disguise yourself as a humanoid contradicts the notion of the concept; which is to be a powerful nerubian that can turn into a crypt lord, or use vast summoning magic to terrorize your enemy. We have multiple races that use a humanoid form to hide their more monstrous appearance. Why should this be any different?

Then what is the difference of a Forsaken Druid using its form to terrorize its opponent with bestial strikes and shielding against attacks with thick carapace armor?

I mean the concept we're talking about is a shapeshifter class, and that isn't the core concept of a Crypt Lord, rather it is conceptually a Druid/Spellcaster(Warlock?) who specializes in Crypt Lord forms.

There are plenty of magical beings who are capable of using glamour, visages or shapeshift disguises. Crypt Lords and Nerubians are not one of them.

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You know, you could honestly knock out a lot of potential class ideas depending on how much blizzard will let us customize spells in the future. Not even limited to just Crypt Lords.

I could honestly see even a class like Tinker being fulfilled with Gnome/Goblin druids if their “forms” were essentially just mech suits if blizzard REALLY wanted to stretch it. Resto would be the only iffy spec, but that didn’t stop void elf priests.

I've been a strong proponent of such a pairing. Mech forms would make way more sense for Goblins and Gnomes than traditional nature magic. It shouldn't just be a customization option, it should outright be a class skin IMO. No need to bother with Gnome and Goblin nature magic users, just skip to the meat and potatoes Tech.

[Teriz]

What you've described in your #2 class concept? It's a druid.

So....

Like I said, using shape shifting mechanics doesn’t equate to it being completely like the entire Druid class.

Then what is the difference of a Forsaken Druid using its form to terrorize its opponent with bestial strikes and shielding against attacks with thick carapace armor?

Abilities and talents. Druids don’t have Crypt Lord abilities or thematics.

[Triceron]

Like I said, using shape shifting mechanics doesn’t equate to it being completely like the entire Druid class.

No, but you're basing it on it's primary theme and mechanics, including having a large, bestial tanking form.

Abilities and talents. Druids don’t have Crypt Lord abilities or thematics.

Nor would they be needed to fit the fantasy of playing as one.

The cosmetics alone does 90% of the work. No one looks at Zandalari Dino forms and think 'It's still just a tree-hugging bear'

[Teriz]

No, but you're basing it on its primary theme and mechanics, including having a large, bestial tanking form.

The primary theme is nature and Druidic magic. Neither are possessed by the Crypt Lord.

Nor would they be needed to fit the fantasy of playing as one.

Yes it does. Why would anyone want to play as a crypt lord or nerubian if their known abilities are absent?

The cosmetics alone does 90% of the work. No one looks at Zandalari Dino forms and think 'It's still just a tree-hugging bear'

Because Zandalari Druids aren’t based on a classic WoW hero who has a ton of original abilities that define what it is.

[Triceron]

Yes it does. Why would anyone want to play as a crypt lord or nerubian if their known abilities are absent?

I think people would be very happy with the idea of playing in Crypt Lord form, even without their abilities. Nightshade even expressed his enthusiasm over the idea. We have the ability to play a form we otherwise have no access to, why would that be a bad thing?

Hunters are lacking plenty of Dark Ranger abilities. Would you say no one would play as a Hunter with Dark Ranger customizations because they know there are known abilities that are absent, like Charm/Possession, Life Drain and Black Arrow?

I'd say a Hunter with the right customizations does the job of representing Dark Rangers fairly well. And even if some people will complain it ain't perfect, it will work for the majority.

Same with High Elf customizations without the racials and official Race recognition. Won't work for everyone, but it will satisfy a good chunk, to the point of not needing a separate High Elf race.

Because Zandalari Druids aren’t based on a classic WoW hero who has a ton of original abilities that define what it is.

Doesn't matter, that would be a strawman argument. No one fusses whether they are based on WC3 or not, no one fusses over them lacking 'Dinosaur' abilities. I said the cosmetics alone would satisfy the fantasy of playing as a Dinosaur, and that's what it does. Either you agree or disagree, because talking about WC3 heroes is nothing but a strawman argument. If you accuse me of strawmanning, best not continue to do it yourself.

If not I can point out how flaming cat form customization satisfies the fantasy of a Druid of the Flame. Do you have any of its abilities? No. It doesn't need to. The cosmetics still fulfill the fantasy regardless of any abilities.

Despite @Triceron's insistence, you can't just swap out animations for abilities and pretend that there will be no balance issues involved

Werebear uses a completely different set of animations and there were no balance issues.

Or look at the more recent Tauren Totem weapon type for 2h weapons. Different attack animations, no balance problem whatsoever.

[Golden Yak]

Sexy Elise spider-lady visages... of course, why didn't I think of that...

Bug-people with visages, or really any overly monstery race with visages, is a pretty interesting idea. I would certainly love a bug-related class drawing on the powers of the aqir-related races. Nerubian, qiraji, mantid, or pure aqir. An entirely new breed of aqir spawned by the Old Gods to be our best friends forever would be one fun take.

[Teriz]

I think people would be very happy with the idea of playing in Crypt Lord form, even without their abilities. Nightshade even expressed his enthusiasm over the idea. We have the ability to play a form we otherwise have no access to, why would that be a bad thing?

Why would people be happy to play a Crypt Lord with Druid abilities? Demon Hunter advocates weren't happy with a toy that turned you into a Demon Hunter.

Hunters are lacking plenty of Dark Ranger abilities. Would you say no one would play as a Hunter with Dark Ranger customizations because they know there are known abilities that are absent, like Charm/Possession, Life Drain and Black Arrow?

Bad comparison is bad. If the Hunter class was nothing like a Dark Ranger, you'd have an argument here. The Druid class would be nothing like a Nerubian class.

Same with High Elf customizations without the racials and official Race recognition. Won't work for everyone, but it will satisfy a good chunk, to the point of not needing a separate High Elf race.

Race customizations =/= Class skin instead of a class.

Doesn't matter, that would be a strawman argument. No one fusses whether they are based on WC3 or not, no one fusses over them lacking 'Dinosaur' abilities.

The only strawman here is you comparing a Warcraft hero character with unique abilities to generic dinosaurs.

I said the cosmetics alone would satisfy the fantasy of playing as a Dinosaur, and that's what it does. Either you agree or disagree, because talking about WC3 heroes is nothing but a strawman argument. If you accuse me of strawmanning, best not continue to do it yourself.

Again, what "Dinosaur abilities" are Druids missing?

If not I can point out how flaming cat form customization satisfies the fantasy of a Druid of the Flame. Do you have any of its abilities? No. It doesn't need to. The cosmetics still fulfill the fantasy regardless of any abilities.

Again, see the Demon Hunter example.

Werebear uses a completely different set of animations and there were no balance issues.

Because the animation changes are just melee swings with melee range abilities. It's like going from a sword to a fist weapon. Not a big deal. When you go from a melee based spec to a concept with multiple ranged abilities, you have a problem. The HotS version of the Crypt Lord has multiple ranged and summoning abilities, none of which the druid can emulate.

Or look at the more recent Tauren Totem weapon type for 2h weapons. Different attack animations, no balance problem whatsoever.

See above. Going from a staff to a fist weapon to an axe to a sword to a totem isn't remotely similar to reskinning the abilities of a class. At this point, I can't tell if you're being serious or facetious. I'm starting to believe its the latter.

[Inoculate]

Sexualized spider girls, tinkerer and druids are all the same concept with different skins. The minions are just treants and everything else is bear or cat form rehash. You even have balance based spec.

[Ardenaso]

A combination of Crypt Lord + Lurker + Swarm Host + Brood Lord would be nice

[Teriz]

Sexy Elise spider-lady visages... of course, why didn't I think of that...

Bug-people with visages, or really any overly monstery race with visages, is a pretty interesting idea. I would certainly love a bug-related class drawing on the powers of the aqir-related races. Nerubian, qiraji, mantid, or pure aqir. An entirely new breed of aqir spawned by the Old Gods to be our best friends forever would be one fun take.

That would be an interesting concept; Combining the Nerubian, Qiraji, Mantid, and Aqir into a single class would be quite fun, maybe even divide the specs somewhat along the lines of various tribes (Nerubian: Tanking/Crypt Lord, Mantid: DPS, Qiraji: Healing, etc.) That would also give Blizzard a lot more abilities to pull from, and allow them to develop a much more robust class.

I think it would be cool if they could turn into something like this;



And utilize some crude Mantid abilities. Preferably their amber and sound abilities. I wouldn't expect them to be as advanced as the Mantid on Pandaria, since this playable group would likely be more isolated due to being in Azjol Nerub. However, such a race should have ties to all Aqir races since at one time they were one massive empire, and supposedly Azjol Nerub is full of libraries of knowledge.

I'd also like to see a Broodmother "evil" healer. I think for that form, Blizzard should dig a bit into zerg design and utilize something along the lines of Zagara;



I don't know how "gross" Blizzard would be willing to go, but I'd love to see infestations and parasites being used to heal.

I don't know, just some ideas I'm throwing around.

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Sexualized spider girls, tinkerer and druids are all the same concept with different skins. The minions are just treants and everything else is bear or cat form rehash. You even have balance based spec.

Yeah, incorrect.

Crypt Lord: (mainly) Nerubian-based, utilizing insect minions, webs, poisons, and the body of the insect.
Tinkers: Mechanical, utilizing advanced weaponry and mechs as vehicles in combat.
Druids: Utilizes nature magic and the ability to turn into beasts.

I don't see how anyone could believe those are the same concept.

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A combination of Crypt Lord + Lurker + Swarm Host + Brood Lord would be nice

That's sort of what I'm thinking, along with a dash of Mantid. The Crypt Lords can use their wings to fly around a bit, so that would be cool for a few abilities too. It's quite interesting how much Blizzard pulled from the Zerg to develop the Aqir races. I definitely think they should pull more aspects from SC2 to flesh out such a class. Would be a nice change of pace, and definitely satisfy those looking for a sinister insect-class to play as.

[Inoculate]

snip

The theme is different, yes, but mechanically very similar. I would love a proper insect race or if they let the different insect races to form a faction of existing classes and a hero class.

[Alanar]

Yeah the Viziers are already fairly humanoid looking. Sadly does not lend to give them the Spider Lord tanking look but you could have some transformation spell; have them wrap themselves in a web coccoon and emerge in Spider Lord form.

I am also not a fan of these visage forms, we have to be carefull with overdoing it. The nerubians were just never shown with it, so it would be a new addition for them. Not saying it couldnt work, but I actually like your idea better.

Make it a meta ability 3 min cd and transform you into this beasty looking tank spider. I woulsnt be a fan to nerubian-out in stormwind and be a humanmodel with some dark features, that would feel lame to me. They arent worgen.

[Teriz]

The theme is different, yes, but mechanically very similar. I would love a proper insect race or if they let the different insect races to form a faction of existing classes and a hero class.

The only mechanical similarity is how you enter combat form.

Its no different than Worgen and Dracthyr; Both races enter combat in a mechanically similar fashion, but Evokers are mechanically different than every other WoW class due to the thematic of their abilities.