Crypt Lord class now possible thanks to Dracthyr Evokers?

[Ielenia]

So you’re arguing that Greymayne isn’t using his human form to blend in?

Greymane is human. He's not an anthropomorphic wolf race that decided to gain a human form to blend with the Alliance. And their human forms is a reminder of who they really are.

[Triceron]

Why would people be happy to play a Crypt Lord with Druid abilities? Demon Hunter advocates weren't happy with a toy that turned you into a Demon Hunter.

Strawman argument? Toys aren't usable in combat.

And this is a 5 min duration with 30 cooldown. There's no comparison to a choice-optional permanent form

Bad comparison is bad. If the Hunter class was nothing like a Dark Ranger, you'd have an argument here. The Druid class would be nothing like a Nerubian class.

It depends on what 'like a Dark Ranger' means to people.

Those who care more about the aesthetics than thr gameplay would be satisfied with what they have. Those who care more about the gameplay from other games would not be as satisfied. This applies to both concepts here equally. Both are missing abilities, and your argument is asking who would be happy.

You'd agree that there are people who would be just fine with customizations, wouldn't you? I'm not even saying it'd be better than a class, just that it would be better than not having it at all, which is the situation right now.

Race customizations =/= Class skin instead of a class.

Who said instead of a class?

I've always said there is room for both. You're only arguing against yourself here, let's be clear.

I'm not arguing in favour of one over another, I'm arguing against the principle argument you're implying that no one would want customizations at all because it doesn't let you play exactly like a WC3 hero they are based on.

The only strawman here is you comparing a Warcraft hero character with unique abilities to generic dinosaurs.

Abilities don't really matter to many people who would be happy to settle with just having access to visual aesthetics. Again, I'm not challenging your position here. A class would be better, but no should be comparing customizations to a class anyways.

A Dark Ranger class would be better than customizations that we have right now, we agree? All I'm saying is customizations we have also satisfy a lot of people who otherwise had no way of playing as one, possible ever.

Again, what "Dinosaur abilities" are Druids missing?

Any and all? Every Druid ability is based on Bears and Cats and Nature, which was your entire complaint in the first place.

Your first impression wasn't about missing abilities, it was about Crypt Lords having Druid nature abilities and people not being satisfied with just a skin that still uses moonfires and regrowth. As I've said, no one fusses over Dinosaurs doing the same, while having talents and ability names/icons related to Bears. No one fusses.

Because the animation changes are just melee swings with melee range abilities. It's like going from a sword to a fist weapon. Not a big deal. When you go from a melee based spec to a concept with multiple ranged abilities, you have a problem. The HotS version of the Crypt Lord has multiple ranged and summoning abilities, none of which the druid can emulate.

No one is asking to emulate it.

You're implying that a customization has to fulfill your personal demands, when I'm arguing that customizations are customizations and not privy to your personal tastes.

If you don't like the idea, say you don'y lile it, and we can both move on. I can respect your opinion.

But as long as you challenge the idea itself and bring bogus arguments like implying no one would want to play it at all if it didn't have abilities, or that balance breaks if you change animations, then you're just making excuses.

We have customizations that prove both statements to be untrue. We have customizations that change animations and don't break balance, we have customizations that are popular despite offering zero gameplay incentives.

All you're doing here is making excuses and making up problems. If you are trying to justify your own opinion, this isn't the way to do it. And if you come from the perspective that only one can exist, then just say so and leave it at that. I fine with agreeing to disagree, we don't have to meet eye to eye

All I'm doing is debunking the bullshit here.

See above. Going from a staff to a fist weapon to an axe to a sword to a totem isn't remotely similar to reskinning the abilities of a class. At this point, I can't tell if you're being serious or facetious. I'm starting to believe its the latter.

Swing timers are different for each weapon, that's the only difference. The animations themselves work, they all scale to the swing speed.

Bloodlust/Timewarp change the swing timers on weapons. We see exactly what a Staff could look like attacking with the same swing speed as normal daggers, for example. The frequency and animation speed of attacks would be scaled proportionally, that's all

And Guardian Druids have a base attack speed in their forms that aren't affected by weapon swing timers, so this is overall a non-issue. You could equip daggers or a slow 2H mace, and your bear form attacks with the same speed it's always had.

[Teriz]

Greymane is human. He's not an anthropomorphic wolf race that decided to gain a human form to blend with the Alliance. And their human forms is a reminder of who they really are.

He's cursed with an affliction that turns him into a werewolf. Why doesn't he stay in wolf form the entire time since the wolf form gives him multiple physical advantages?

[Ielenia]

He's cursed with an affliction that turns him into a werewolf. Why doesn't he stay in wolf form the entire time since the wolf form gives him multiple physical advantages?

I have literally answered that question in the very same post you quoted:

Greymane is human. He's not an anthropomorphic wolf race that decided to gain a human form to blend with the Alliance. And their human forms is a reminder of who they really are.

[Teriz]

Strawman argument? Toys aren't usable in combat.

Didn't you say that the visuals were the only thing that mattered?

It depends on what 'like a Dark Ranger' means to people.

Those who care more about the aesthetics than thr gameplay would be satisfied with what they have. Those who care more about the gameplay from other games would not be as satisfied. This applies to both concepts here equally. Both are missing abilities, and your argument is asking who would be happy.

You'd agree that there are people who would be just fine with customizations, wouldn't you? I'm not even saying it'd be better than a class, just that it would be better than not having it at all, which is the situation right now.

In the case of a Crypt Lord skin on a Druid ability set, it's better not existing at all, because it makes zero sense.

Who said instead of a class?

I've always said there is room for both. You're only arguing against yourself here, let's be clear.

I'm not arguing in favour of one over another, I'm arguing against the principle argument you're implying that no one would want customizations at all because it doesn't let you play exactly like a WC3 hero they are based on.

I didn't say "no one", I said fans of the Crypt Lord hero and of the Nerubian aesthetic in general. Further, Blizzard wouldn't do it because reskinning every Druid ability to match a Nerubian ability set would be a monumental task every single patch and expansion.

Abilities don't really matter to many people who would be happy to settle with just having access to visual aesthetics. Again, I'm not challenging your position here. A class would be better, but no should be comparing customizations to a class anyways.

A Dark Ranger class would be better than customizations that we have right now, we agree? All I'm saying is customizations we have also satisfy a lot of people who otherwise had no way of playing as one, possible ever.

And Dark Ranger fits the Hunter class. Crypt Lord does not fit the Druid class. That's the difference.

Any and all? Every Druid ability is based on Bears and Cats and Nature, which was your entire complaint in the first place.

Your first impression wasn't about missing abilities, it was about Crypt Lords having Druid nature abilities and people not being satisfied with just a skin that still uses moonfires and regrowth. As I've said, no one fusses over Dinosaurs doing the same, while having talents and ability names/icons related to Bears. No one fusses.

Because Dinosaurs are beasts and fit the Druid aesthetic. A Crypt Lord is not and does not.

No one is asking to emulate it.

You're implying that a customization has to fulfill your personal demands, when I'm arguing that customizations are customizations and not privy to your personal tastes.

If you don't like the idea, say you don'y lile it, and we can both move on. I can respect your opinion.

Cool. I don't like it, and it's not a feasible option. Moving on.

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I have literally answered that question in the very same post you quoted:

So they're using it to blend in with the rest of humanity, since walking around a human city without people fleeing in terror reminds them of who they really are; humans.

Thank you.

[Ielenia]

So they're using it to blend in with the rest of humanity, since walking around a human city without people fleeing in terror reminds them of who they really are; humans.

Thank you.

Wow. I don't think you could be any more dishonest even if you tried. That is not what I said at all. Their human form is to remind themselves of who they are. It has nothing to do with "blending with the rest of the alliance."

[Nightshade711]

Wow. I don't think you could be any more dishonest even if you tried. That is not what I said at all. Their human form is to remind themselves of who they are. It has nothing to do with "blending with the rest of the alliance."

Tbh his arguments just devolve into this when it comes to opposing viewpoints.
--- snip ---

He’ll just generate some wildly inaccurate interpretation to your viewpoints and then go and say it doesn’t make sense.

[Teriz]

Wow. I don't think you could be any more dishonest even if you tried. That is not what I said at all. Their human form is to remind themselves of who they are. It has nothing to do with "blending with the rest of the alliance."

Okay, if you say so. No need to carry this any further.

I am also not a fan of these visage forms, we have to be carefull with overdoing it. The nerubians were just never shown with it, so it would be a new addition for them. Not saying it couldnt work, but I actually like your idea better.

Yeah, unfortunately the reality of gaming is that many people are simply not going to be interested in a playable race that looks like this;



That said, we DO have examples in WoW of more humanoid looking insect-people, and that's the Qiraji who are related to the Nerubians;



Nothing says Blizzard can't take that general idea and push it more towards an "attractive" visage form for players, or maybe even a humanoid race that is deemed attractive and doesn't need a visage form. Sort of like the Drow/Drider in D&D. We're dealing with ancient races of insectoids that can literally look like anything.

[Triceron]

Didn't you say that the visuals were the only thing that mattered?

For some people to be satisfied by customizations, yes the visuals are all that matters.

I'm not comparing them to a new class like you are, I'm defending the concept of customizations against your assertion that no one cares without gameplay.

Like Dark Ranger, 100% of their gameplay is derived from Hunter. They have none of the fancy and flair of HOTS Sylvanas' Banshee abilities and shadow dagger throws and mind control. People are still happy with the customizations. This isn't argument against abilities; I'd much prefer if Blizzard added them, but also recognize that they aren't necessary to have that immersion when visuals alone work well to satisfy the fantasy.

In the case of a Crypt Lord skin on a Druid ability set, it's better not existing at all, because it makes zero sense.

That's a valid opinion you can have.

I didn't say "no one", I said fans of the Crypt Lord hero and of the Nerubian aesthetic in general. Further, Blizzard wouldn't do it because reskinning every Druid ability to match a Nerubian ability set would be a monumental task every single patch and expansion.

I'm a fan of the Crypt Lord hero and I came up with this idea

Don't speak out for people you don't represent.

As for the workload, it doesn't need to be done immediately at launch. Do it like Werebear customizations; offered through something like Mage Tower rewards. These forms can be offered to all Druid races. Much Like they opened Mech pets to all hunters or Dark Ranger customization to all classes.

And Dark Ranger fits the Hunter class. Crypt Lord does not fit the Druid class. That's the difference.

Because Dinosaurs are beasts and fit the Druid aesthetic. A Crypt Lord is not and does not.

Cool. I don't like it, and it's not a feasible option. Moving on.

It's totally a feasible option. You're just trying to pass off your opinion as fact, and I've proven your excuses wrong multiple times here.

If visuals don't matter then you wouldn't be suggesting a sexy female Humanoid form for Crypt Lord class at all.

*Drops mic*

[Nightshade711]

I'm a fan of the Crypt Lord hero and I came up with this idea

Don't speak out for people you don't represent.

If visuals don't matter then you wouldn't be suggesting a sexy female Humanoid form for Crypt Lord class at all.

*Drops mic*

I’m a fan of the Nerubians & Crypt Lords too.
I’d prefer them to be Druid forms too because blizzard would ruin them if they tried to implement them as a race/class.

Case in point they’d try to make them “attractive” lmao.

[Teriz]

I'm not comparing them to a new class like you are, I'm defending the concept of customizations against your assertion that no one cares without gameplay.

I never made that argument.

Like Dark Ranger, 100% of their gameplay is derived from Hunter. They have none of the fancy and flair of HOTS Sylvanas' Banshee abilities and shadow dagger throws and mind control.

This is false. They have Wailing Arrow which directly comes from HotS. Further Wailing Arrow powers multiple talents in the Hunter class.

I'm a fan of the Crypt Lord hero and I came up with this idea

An idea that has nothing to do with this thread, and isn't feasible on any level.

It's totally a feasible option. You're just trying to pass off your opinion as fact, and I've proven your excuses wrong multiple times here.

Nope, it isn't feasible, since Crypt Lords have nothing to do with the Forsaken, or Druidism. Blizzard will just give them a diseased bear and cat and call it a day. Meanwhile, if we get a Azjol Nerub expansion, which is a possibility, a class based on Nerubians/Crypt Lord is a high possibility because it has the three requirements of a WoW class, and especially since Dracthyr Evokers have proven that race/class combinations are possible.

If visuals don't matter then you wouldn't be suggesting a sexy female Humanoid form for Crypt Lord class at all.

*Drops mic*

I never made that argument either.

- - - Updated - - -

Case in point they’d try to make them “attractive” lmao.

Yes, because attractive monsters isn't a popular thing in gaming right?



Blizzard is not allergic to money, so they will do whatever they can to make a new race palpable to the masses.

[Triceron]

An idea that has nothing to do with this thread, and isn't feasible on any level.

Your entire secondary concept equates this as a type of Druid.

It would be dishonest to say this has nothing to do with the concept

Nope, it isn't feasible, since Crypt Lords have nothing to do with the Forsaken, or Druidism. Blizzard will just give them a diseased bear and cat and call it a day. Meanwhile, if we get a Azjol Nerub expansion, which is a possibility, a class based on Nerubians/Crypt Lord is a high possibility because it has the three requirements of a WoW class, and especially since Dracthyr Evokers have proven that race/class combinations are possible.

They have just as much potential in being a new customization as they do a new class, and the customization doesn't even require an Azjol Nerub expansion. All they need to do is make it available as a glyph.

Again, not sure why you need to make bogus arguments. It doesn't impact the possibility for a new class at all.

[Teriz]

Your entire secondary concept equates this as a type of Druid.

It would be dishonest to say this has nothing to do with the concept

Uh, Druids do not have a monopoly on shapeshifting. Dragons can shapeshift into humanoids. That doesn't make them Druids. Old God minions can shapeshift. Again, doesn't make them druids.

They have just as much potential in being a new customization as they do a new class, and the customization doesn't even require an Azjol Nerub expansion. All they need to do is make it available as a glyph.

Again, not sure why you need to make bogus arguments. It doesn't impact the possibility for a new class at all.

Again, it doesn't because Crypt Lords have nothing to do with Forsaken, and aren't druids nor are they related to druidism. IF Forsaken get Druids, you're getting tainted bears, cats, and a diseased Moonkin, and that's about it.

[Triceron]

I’m a fan of the Nerubians & Crypt Lords too.
I’d prefer them to be Druid forms too because blizzard would ruin them if they tried to implement them as a race/class.

Case in point they’d try to make them “attractive” lmao.

I see merit in a class, but I do hesitate at how Blizzard would approach it.

IMO it would be a disservice to other class concepts if they ever dug into this and made it real before much demanded Bard, Tinker, Necromancer etc.

Customizations could go a very long way in satisfying many of these requests. I think we can do away with any more classes if the customizations are robust enough, and they adjust core classes with enough talent options to cover niche archetypes.

Like all we need for a true Dark Ranger is a couple of talents that really push the DR angle, like Haunting Wave and Black Arrow. All we need for a Necromancer is a Warlock skin that changes minions to undead, primarily with melee skeletons instead of ranged imps. These can literally be talent modifiers with equivalent power, like the talent choices we already have where you have to pick one option.

[Ielenia]

Okay, if you say so. No need to carry this any further.

So, your response after I debunk your misrepresentation of my arguments is to say "no need to carry this any further"? Is that it?

My point still remains: your idea for a "race/class combo" steps too much on the dracthyr: another single-race-single-class combo, and another monstrous race that uses magic to make themselves humanoid with the intention to blend with the mortal races.

[Triceron]

Uh, Druids do not have a monopoly on shapeshifting. Dragons can shapeshift into humanoids. That doesn't make them Druids. Old God minions can shapeshift. Again, doesn't make them druids.

You're suggesting a class that encroaches on their design space and is hyper-focused on visual aesthetics as a selling feature. Shapeshifting isn't a Crypt Lord thing, I'm not sure why you even suggested it. Your goal is to have a playable Crypt Lord, not a Humanoid with a Crypt Lord Form.

Crypt Lords aren't Dragons, Druids, Old Gods or Spellcasters who use glamour. They are Undead 'monsters' that are wholly unconcerned about making their appearances attractive to mortal races.

There is a very clear disparity between your intent and your argument if you believe they should have a Humanoid form at all. It speaks to the lack of confidence in the concept working off the strength of its own identity.

If you want to model them after Dracthyr, you'll probably work better with making a whole new race up

Again, it doesn't because Crypt Lords have nothing to do with Forsaken, and aren't druids nor are they related to druidism. IF Forsaken get Druids, you're getting tainted bears, cats, and a diseased Moonkin, and that's about it.

The customization is open to practically any race option if they make it, much like Werebear or Flaming Cat.

In retrospect, had I remembered Werebear customizations at the start, I would have made a direct comparison to them and disconnect it from Forsaken entirely.

Forsaken Druid was merely my first reaction to what race they would fit best for.

[Teriz]

You're suggesting a class that encroaches on their design space and is hyper-focused on visual aesthetics as a selling feature.

Yeah, it doesn't encroach on their design space at all. Shaman and Dracthyr encroach on Druid design space far more than this class would.

Shapeshifting isn't a Crypt Lord thing, I'm not sure why you even suggested it. Your goal is to have a playable Crypt Lord, not a Humanoid with a Crypt Lord Form.

And before WoW, Druids didn't turn into Cats and Moonkin. Before WoW, no black dragon had created a successful artificial dragon that could control the powers of all 5 dragon aspects. Just because it didn't exist previously doesn't mean lore can't be constructed during the initial expansion to justify it. It could be as simple as a group of Nerubian (or an offshoot of the Nerubians, since there are human-looking insectoid races in WoW) spellcasters invoking the power of the old Nerubian rulers (Crypt Lords) to fight the enemies of their kingdom.

Crypt Lords aren't Dragons, Druids, Old Gods or Spellcasters who use glamour. They are Undead 'monsters' that are wholly unconcerned about making their appearances attractive to mortal races.


If you want to model them after Dracthyr, you'll probably work better with making a whole new race up

Not necessary. See above.

So, your response after I debunk your misrepresentation of my arguments is to say "no need to carry this any further"? Is that it?

You debunked nothing. Semantic arguments are a waste of time, so I'm moving on. Worgen, Dracthyr, and this class will all have humanoid forms to hide their true forms.

No big deal.

[Sezerek]

So Tinkerer is not the focus of Teriz obsession anymore and instead the forum is goin to be plagued by this Nerubian-class shit the next few years?

[Tiwack]

In order to cleanse themselves of the taint of the Old Gods, so they could truly be free creatures that chart their own destiny, they conducted experiments with infusing themselves with humanoid blood and genetics. The result changed their bodies dramatically, but thanks to magical memory, they can change back to their old forms at will, which they often do for combat purposes.

Bam, done, ez pz.

Excellent, forwarded to blizz and finished with "i'm co-creater of bitcoin, don't you dare ignore me!"

[Triceron]

Yeah, it doesn't encroach on their design space at all. Shaman and Dracthyr encroach on Druid design space far more than this class would.

None of their shapeshifts are combat forms. Dracthyr visage is non combat, Ghostwolf is non combat.

You're suggesting a combat form for both Humanoid and Crypt Lord forms, which is in the realm of Druid shapeshift gameplay.

Again, you even cite Druids directly as a basis for your concept. Non-combat forms and toys do not encroach on Druid design.

And before WoW, Druids didn't turn into Cats and Moonkin. Before WoW, no black dragon had created a successful artificial dragon that could control the powers of all 5 dragon aspects. Just because it didn't exist previously doesn't mean lore can't be constructed during the initial expansion to justify it. It could be as simple as a group of Nerubian (or an offshoot of the Nerubians, since there are human-looking insectoid races in WoW) spellcasters invoking the power of the old Nerubian rulers (Crypt Lords) to fight the enemies of their kingdom.

Then present it as that.

Your argument is a mishmash of adhering to WC3 or HOTS Anubarak and dismissing the idea of Crypt Lords ever using nature magic or using moonfires. That doesn't matter either since lore can effectively br adapted or ignored, by saying Forsaken Druids take this form and use these abilities. There is no difference from saying Druids didn't used to have Cat and Boomkin. They also didn't have Crypt Lord form, but they could.

Plenty of customizations and existing class combos break or ignore lore.

Not necessary. See above.

The entire class concept is unnecessary.

Why make Crypt Lords into sexy female humanoids if it can simply be avoided? Lore bastardization is unnecessary.

Do it to a new race instead.

You debunked nothing. Semantic arguments are a waste of time, so I'm moving on. Worgen, Dracthyr, and this class will all have humanoid forms to hide their true forms.

No big deal.

That isn't what you're suggesting, and you're applying it to an existing race that doesn't have any race changing properties. Worgen and Dracthyr also treat human forms as non-combat visuals, which doesn't encroach on Druid shapeshifting themes.

It's like suggesting s Murloc class and giving them a humanoid form (and Humanoid Caster spec) just to make it more appealing. The humanoid shapeshifting has nothing to do with Murlocs.