Crypt Lord class now possible thanks to Dracthyr Evokers?

[Teriz]

Wrong. The ankylosaur might use the bear skeleton, but it's a completely new model that is different than the normal druid bear form.

Still just a reskinned bear.

On top of that, the Zandalari druid's Feral spec form is not a cat at all, model, skeleton or animations: it is a raptor. So yes, here we have Blizzard giving a specific druid race something unique that the others do not have.

A raptor eh?

Shouldn't it look more like this?



instead of more like this?

And you don't think nerubians have attack and casting animations?

Sure, but the abilities will match the reskinned Arakkoa. It's not going to match the nerubian.

Why not?

See the Raptor example above.

Except we're not talking about "coat of paints" or game mechanics. You set the conversation to be about the lore:

No, I was talking about coats of paint in this particular conversation.

[Triceron]

Not necessarily. They might not even have to add many new animations to the Nerubian forms.
Given all of the animations that the base Nerubian skeleton has been given in almost every expansion since Vanilla.

The best thing about it is it opens up to using plenty of existing models we just don't have access to.

Direhorns, Crypt Lords, Nuizao style Oxen, etc. The customizations are broad enough that anyone could pick and choose the cosmetics they want.

Then it’s likely they could have it, because you can customize Druid forms in the barber shop.
It’s why I can have the Werebear form on my Zandalari Druid if I want it.

To be honest, if they bring back some of the old removed spells like Insect Swarm, Faerie Fire and Thorns, it would go a very long way to bridging in Crypt Lords.

Even if Guardian Moonfire got a visual glyph to look like Insect Swarm, it would greatly sell the look and feel.


I still think they should have leaned Balance more towards Nature spells rather than Moon and Sun, but that's another conversation.

- - - Updated - - -

So we are to believe that Zalandari Druids are also getting reskinned abilities?

I'm explaining how the Form customizations and ability glyphs works right now, which you seem to be very uninformed about

Not sure what my beliefs have to do with your ignorance on how Druids actually swap their form visuals.

[Teriz]

I don’t see how it gets more intensive.
You’re the one making a false assumption that they’d make one for every single race/class combo.

Not necessarily. They might not even have to add many new animations to the Nerubian forms.
Given all of the animations that the base Nerubian skeleton has been given in almost every expansion since Vanilla.

Same can be said for a lot of things.
“It’d less work to give paladins the base charger” (which they used to do)

How would it be “far more appropriate”? Especially since you don’t know the lore on how an Undead Druid would work when blizzard chooses to implement them.

Then it’s likely they could have it, because you can customize Druid forms in the barber shop.
It’s why I can have the Werebear form on my Zandalari Druid if I want it.

You know, I'd be more apt to believe this entire argument if the Zalandari forms weren't still called Cat and Bear forms.

Blizzard can't be pressed to change the name of the Zalandari druid forms and you seriously believe they're going to do what you're talking about here?

Give me a break.

How doesn’t it work exactly?
You’re talking about summoning minions, especially passively earlier in the thread. The visuals don’t matter.

It's not the visuals, it's the mechanics. The spawning of the eggs, the ability to time when those eggs hatch, and the minions you get from the ability, which is loaded with flavor. You strip that away, and it simply becomes bland and boring.

A new class is the superior option.

[Ielenia]

Still just a reskinned bear.

It's not just reskinned. It's entirely remodeled. Something that was "reskinned" just had its textures changes. The Zandalari tank form is a complete remodel.

A raptor eh?

That's my bad. I did a Google Image search for 'feral zandalari cat' and the raptor one was the first couple that showed up.

Sure, but the abilities will match the reskinned Arakkoa. It's not going to match the nerubian.

Why wouldn't they? Better yet: how wouldn't they?

See the Raptor example above.

It doesn't address the question. I'll repeat: why wouldn't Blizzard give forsaken druids a different Guardian, Feral and Balance forms?

No, I was talking about coats of paint in this particular conversation.

No, you were specifically talking about lore. Try to keep up. You said:

Which is part of their lore. Druids turning into intelligent beings isn't part of their lore. Their lore is turning into beasts.

To which I responded with:

Except the Kul'tiran druids, who turn into wicker constructs? Did you forget about them?

And you responded with:

Wicker bears and cats are still just bears and cats with a coat of paint.

To which I finally responded with:

Except we're not talking about "coat of paints" or game mechanics. You set the conversation to be about the lore:

Showcasing how you're doing a bait-and-switch here.

[Teriz]

It's not just reskinned. It's entirely remodeled. Something that was "reskinned" just had its textures changes. The Zandalari tank form is a complete remodel.

And yet it's still called Bear Form.

Why wouldn't they? Better yet: how wouldn't they?

Because it's doing celestial nature magic. I'm not aware of Nerubians being capable of performing that type of magic.

It doesn't address the question. I'll repeat: why wouldn't Blizzard give forsaken druids a different Guardian, Feral and Balance forms?

They would, This one;

No, you were specifically talking about lore. Try to keep up. You said:

To which I responded with:

And you responded with:

To which I finally responded with:

Showcasing how you're doing a bait-and-switch here.

Okay, but they're still just Bears and Cats with a different coat of paint. Same animations, same abilities, same purpose.

[Mecheon]

Even a playable Nerubian-like race who had access to Druid class would suffice, if that's the case. And if accessed through a Cosmetic, then it could be inferred that the allied Nerubians taught other Druid races how to obtain the form. Much like how Flame Cat and Werebear are accessible to any Druid after unlocking.

Honestly, if we were getting a Nerubian-esque race (i'd like something like Pathfinder's anadi thanks, let me just be a friendly jumping spider who can turn into a vaguely more human shape in the hope this doesn't terrify everyone around), they'd probably get spider cat and spider bear forms.

Crypt Lords are just, one weird Nerubian form, much like the other variants like the caster form or the fliers. Nothing about them has ever indicated towards temporary transformation. At best, we'd get a toy to turn into one. I cannot see them even being considered for druid forms.

[Teriz]

Honestly, if we were getting a Nerubian-esque race (i'd like something like Pathfinder's anadi thanks, let me just be a friendly jumping spider who can turn into a vaguely more human shape in the hope this doesn't terrify everyone around), they'd probably get spider cat and spider bear forms.

Crypt Lords are just, one weird Nerubian form, much like the other variants like the caster form or the fliers. Nothing about them has ever indicated towards temporary transformation. At best, we'd get a toy to turn into one. I cannot see them even being considered for druid forms.

More than likely they'll be offered as a race/class in an Azjol Nerub expansion. The idea of them being offered as a Druid form is a pipe dream.

[Ielenia]

And yet it's still called Bear Form.

Yeah. Because it's an ability name. Much like a tauren paladin's healing ability is called "Saved by the Light", "Infusion of Light" and "Judgment of the despite the tauren not worshipping the Light, and a talent called Cavalier despite tauren's Divine Steed being a kodo.

The Zandalari's Guardian form is a "bear" in game ability name only.

Because it's doing celestial nature magic. I'm not aware of Nerubians being capable of performing that type of magic.

"Celestial" as in astral magic? That's not really a problem. How many DKs did we have using blood or frost magic before Wrath again?

They would, This one;

You're not answering the question. I asked why why wouldn't they give the forsaken druid different forms for Guardian, Feral and Balance. I didn't ask what you think they should do.

Okay, but they're still just Bears and Cats with a different coat of paint. Same animations, same abilities, same purpose.

Which is irrelevant, because we're not talking about game mechanics. We're talking about lore, because you made the argument about lore. And no, it's not "same animations", because, as I'll remind you again: the werebear druid form has different animations (not to mention model and skeleton) than the basic druid bear form. By your own argument, the Werebear form shouldn't exist.

[Teriz]

Yeah. Because it's an ability name. Much like a tauren paladin's healing ability is called "Saved by the Light", "Infusion of Light" and "Judgment of the despite the tauren not worshipping the Light, and a talent called Cavalier despite tauren's Divine Steed being a kodo.

The Zandalari's Guardian form is a "bear" in game ability name only.

Well not really, since it has the Bear abilities that every Druid shares as well.

"Celestial" as in astral magic? That's not really a problem. How many DKs did we have using blood or frost magic before Wrath again?

Well DKs had Death Pact which ended up becoming a blood spell in WoW. Also considering that DKs were created by the Lich King, it was sort of obvious they were getting ice powers.

Astral Magic and Nature magic seem out of the purview of Nerubians, outside of venom magic, which Druids don't use.

You're not answering the question. I asked why why wouldn't they give the forsaken druid different forms for Guardian, Feral and Balance. I didn't ask what you think they should do.

And I said they would; Tainted Bear and Cat forms, since ALL playable Druids get Bear and Cat forms.

Which is irrelevant, because we're not talking about game mechanics.

Well no, I was talking about game mechanics and maybe a little bit of lore.

[Ielenia]

Well not really, since it has the Bear abilities that every Druid shares as well.

Okay? The zandalari druid's Guardian form is a dinosaur, and yet it still uses an ability called "Ironfur". The ability doesn't change its name to "Ironscale" for them, do it? Why do you think those abilities would have to change their names for Forsaken druids with nerubian forms? Why do you think a forsaken Guardian druid wouldn't use "Mangle", "Maul", "Rapid Regeneration", etc?

Well DKs had Death Pact which ended up becoming a blood spell in WoW.

But it wasn't a "blood" ability in WC3. In fact, it wasn't defined as blood magic until the playable class was created.

Also considering that DKs were created by the Lich King, it was sort of obvious they were getting ice powers.

Except Arthas himself never had any frost powers. His hero unit never had any frost abilities. And considering the only time he did it was in cutscenes, and none of the other DK hero units have frost, it implies that all the "frost" came from the sword, not from the "death knighthood' itself.

Astral Magic and Nature magic seem out of the purview of Nerubians, outside of venom magic, which Druids don't use.

Blizzard could create a new group of nerubians who can do that for that expansion. After all, Blizzard created a whole new group of DKs who all freely utilize blood and frost magic alongside unholy magic for the Wrath expansion, didn't they? They also created the "harvest witches" in Gilneas to explain why the Gilneans had druidic teachings in their society.

And I said they would;

No, you didn't. You know exactly that I was talking about the nerubian forms that we have been discussing for several pages now. Don't try to act ignorant about what we're talking about here on this sub-topic as well.

Well no, I was talking about game mechanics and maybe a little bit of lore.

Sorry, you don't get to retcon what you were talking about. You specifically made it about the lore then tried to band-and-switch to game mechanics.

[Teriz]

Okay? The zandalari druid's Guardian form is a dinosaur, and yet it still uses an ability called "Ironfur". The ability doesn't change its name to "Ironscale" for them, do it? Why do you think those abilities would have to change their names for Forsaken druids with nerubian forms? Why do you think a forsaken Guardian druid wouldn't use "Mangle", "Maul", "Rapid Regeneration", etc?

I wouldn't, because I don't believe that Druids are getting Nerubian forms, and all druid forms are essentially the same across races. The only one that really sticks out is the Zalandari Moonkin form.

But it wasn't a "blood" ability in WC3. In fact, it wasn't defined as blood magic until the playable class was created.

It had the qualities of a blood spell though. Also the DK's runic weapon was vampiric.

Except Arthas himself never had any frost powers. His hero unit never had any frost abilities. And considering the only time he did it was in cutscenes, and none of the other DK hero units have frost, it implies that all the "frost" came from the sword, not from the "death knighthood' itself.

I still think the Lich King kind of gave it away that they were going to get ice powers. I mean, it's kind of obvious.

Blizzard could create a new group of nerubians who can do that for that expansion. After all, Blizzard created a whole new group of DKs who all freely utilize blood and frost magic alongside unholy magic for the Wrath expansion, didn't they? They also created the "harvest witches" in Gilneas to explain why the Gilneans had druidic teachings in their society.

Yeah, but Blizzard wouldn't make Nerubians Druids. They'd give them their own unique class, just like what the Dracthyr got.

That's kind of the point here.

No, you didn't. You know exactly that I was talking about the nerubian forms that we have been discussing for several pages now. Don't try to act ignorant about what we're talking about here on this sub-topic as well.


Sorry, you don't get to retcon what you were talking about. You specifically made it about the lore then tried to band-and-switch to game mechanics.

Again, it's really mostly about mechanics. Lore can be altered and manipulated, but the simple reality is that the only way a player will truly get to experience playing as a nerubian is via a new Nerubian-based class.

EDIT: OP Updated. Definitely leaning more towards "evil Druid" style class.

[chiddie]

Don’t see this happening.

No one wants to play a spider. Also, while a humanoid form for werewolves and dragons makes sense, a humanoid form for spiders makes zero sense.

At this point whatever “animalish” mob can become a playable race.

[Teriz]

Don’t see this happening.

No one wants to play a spider. Also, while a humanoid form for werewolves and dragons makes sense, a humanoid form for spiders makes zero sense.

At this point whatever “animalish” mob can become a playable race.

Eh, plenty of people want to play as Nerubians and Mantid. It's been requested.

Also some of the Aqir races already have humanoid forms, including the Nerubians. Makes sense for Nerubians to make themselves look like other races in order to blend in and not scare people. Dragons and Worgens do the same thing.

[Triceron]

Honestly, if we were getting a Nerubian-esque race (i'd like something like Pathfinder's anadi thanks, let me just be a friendly jumping spider who can turn into a vaguely more human shape in the hope this doesn't terrify everyone around), they'd probably get spider cat and spider bear forms.

True, at the base level they would probably default to Bear and Cat for every race. What I was getting at was that they could still get access to those forms through alternate means, such as a racial form option, or cosmetics that everyone can unlock (ala Werebear or Firecat).

Crypt Lords are just, one weird Nerubian form, much like the other variants like the caster form or the fliers. Nothing about them has ever indicated towards temporary transformation. At best, we'd get a toy to turn into one. I cannot see them even being considered for druid forms.

To be honest, similar things can be said about Werebear and Ancient Protector forms. These are semi-sentient beings with roughly humanoid shapes. Even the Pterokkoa Dino form is very abstract, and not really a traditional beast form. The entire concept of a Moonkin is already quite out there, and WoW adopted it since Vanilla. There was nothing suggesting Moonkins were ever a topic of transformation prior to WoW. WC3 established that Druids were based on traditional animals.

Fun fact - Moonkin Form wasn't present in Vanilla WoW at launch, until they added it a year later with a Druid Talents Revamp patch. Balance used to be a non-shapeshift Caster spec, much like Resto was before they gave them Treeforms. Most people today wouldn't even think of Balance spec without the Moonkin.

[Mecheon]

Fun fact - Moonkin Form wasn't present in Vanilla WoW at launch, until they added it a year later with a Druid Talents Revamp patch. Balance used to be a non-shapeshift Caster spec, much like Resto was before they gave them Treeforms. Most people today wouldn't even think of Balance spec without the Moonkin.

Moonkin in WC3 (well, Owlbears) were originally intended as the Archdruid's ult back during the beta, albeit as a big brute and bruiser and not the spellcasters we know and love. We don't know all of their abilities, but their model got re-vamped into the Druid of the Talon and the Owlbear mob

That's why Moonkin in WC3 had NElf ears, which carried over to their WoW design

[Triceron]

Moonkin in WC3 (well, Owlbears) were originally intended as the Archdruid's ult back during the beta, albeit as a big brute and bruiser and not the spellcasters we know and love. We don't know all of their abilities, but their model got re-vamped into the Druid of the Talon and the Owlbear mob

That's why Moonkin in WC3 had NElf ears, which carried over to their WoW design

Would've loved to see that original 6-hero lineup version of the game. Might've been a bit janky and abilities might've been a bit simplified, but I really did wish there were more heroes like the Arch Druid or Crusader available.

Still, I always thought the Moonkin was an odd outlier design in WoW. I never expected they would adopt it as the Druid's primary caster form. Their connection to Elune never really made much sense to me; they were fairly neutral beasts in WC3 with no real known connection to Elune. Night Elves were slaughtering em wholesale.

[danki1337]

No. keep the game at 3 specs, im sure the 3rd evoker spec was just cut due to corona and time.

[Vaedan]

Exuberance? Life Binder? Abundance (Emerald Blossum)?

You probably never seen/played HotS Alexstrasza or WoW Preservation Evoker. I will explain differences:

Alexstrazsa:
- low mobile healer with big HP
- uses her HP as resources
- her heals often work with max HP percentage, making her strong alongside Heroes with high healthpools
- strong burst heals with delays
- really potent single target healer with Q build
- boost her kit when in dragonform
- Lifebind is active heroic, which connects her to her target
- Her second heroic is about her spiting healing fire from above, protecting herself while she does so.
- has no bronze or significant green spells
- does not have Empower abilities

Preservation Evoker
- Highly mobile, but a bit squishy healers
- HoT centric, excelent in AoE when your team is stacked
- HoT centric playstyle is reinforced by time-reversion spells
- weak single target heal
- Lifebind is Mastery, a passive which incease your heals... It does not remind Alex's Lifebind ability at all
- focused on green and bronze spells which are not part of Alexstrasza's kit, because, you know, she is RED Aspect
- can't boost their spells through dragon transformations
- don't use Its HP as resource for healing.
- Use Essence as resource for it's abilities

Truth be told, Preservation Evoker has very few abilities which either has similar name as something Alexstrasza has in HotS, but the two works extremely different. DHs at least are close to what Illidan is in HotS... Nimble, squishy melee fighter with strong AoE and mobility.

Alexstrasza and Evoker are just connected by draconic theme, which is not different to adding Insect/spider flavor to druid through new forms and glyphs to alter animations.

[Teriz]

You probably never seen/played HotS Alexstrasza or WoW Preservation Evoker. I will explain differences:

Uh, where did I say that Evokers play exactly like Alexstraza from HotS?

Truth be told, Preservation Evoker has very few abilities which either has similar name as something Alexstrasza has in HotS, but the two works extremely different. DHs at least are close to what Illidan is in HotS... Nimble, squishy melee fighter with strong AoE and mobility.

Alexstrasza and Evoker are just connected by draconic theme,

That, and merging race and class together, the ability to heal via fire abilities, flying-based attacks, using the dragons body as a weapon (Wing Buffet), and to mechanically switch into dragon form based on ability press.

which is not different to adding Insect/spider flavor to druid through new forms and glyphs to alter animations.

Well it’s quite different, since as an Evoker you have draconic abilities and a visage form. You can essentially do everything Alexstraza could do in HotS and more, since as an Evoker you have access to the powers of all five dragonflights.

Which is why abilities are important.

Let’s compare a Druid spider form to Elereth Renferal, who was a Druid of the Nightmare during the Emerald Nightmare raid in Legion:

As a Druid in spider form, you can’t do anything Elereth could do, because as a Druid you have zero poison abilities, zero web-based abilities, and you can’t spawn minions. You can’t emulate a spider at all, so there is no fantasy or immersion to be had.

Conversely if we get a Crypt Lord class, a concept like Elereth’s is quite easy to emulate.

That’s the long and short of it.

- - - Updated - - -

No. keep the game at 3 specs, im sure the 3rd evoker spec was just cut due to corona and time.

This proposed class would have three specs;

Crypt Lord-based (tanking)
Mantid-based (RDPS)
Spider-based (heal-based Support)

[Vaedan]

Uh, where did I say that Evokers play exactly like Alexstraza from HotS?

I am pointing out your double standards.

You wanted us to give you exact translation from Elerethe Renferal to druid toolkit. You wanted the see the exact spells.

Across various threads, you made numerous claims that Evokers are directly based on Alexstrazsa and have her toolkit. You said she is direct source for them, alongside Wrathion and other dragons.

Now I am comparing the two. Their playstyle is vastly different and only general draconic theme remains.

That, and merging race and class together, the ability to heal via fire abilities, flying-based attacks, using the dragons body as a weapon (Wing Buffet), and to mechanically switch into dragon form based on ability press.

True, those are pretty generic themes connected to fantasy of Red Dragonflight. The reality is that Evoker and Alexstrazsa are mechanicaly completely different. Their similarities are only in theme. Not in gameplay. Even the final execution of Evoker class is different. Just basic inspirations remains.

Same can be done with forsaken druids having Insect theme. And I say Insect, not nerubian. They can easily have insectoid forms, inspired by nerubian design a bit, but be separate things.

On the other hand, nerubians shapeshifting into sexy humanoids is something never seen in WoW or other materials like Hearthstone And HotS. That idea has no fundation in WoW. It is more DnD stuff with cult of Lloth, Drow culture, drydars, etc. I am not saying it is impossible to add these things, but right now, we now have more material to expand druid into Insect/Death theme then expand nerubians to shapeshifters.
[/QUOTE]