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  1. #321
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    I am pointing out your double standards.

    You wanted us to give you exact translation from Elerethe Renferal to druid toolkit. You wanted the see the exact spells.
    Because the poster I was responding to stated that Renferal’s spells were mechanically the same as a Druid’s.

    Across various threads, you made numerous claims that Evokers are directly based on Alexstrazsa and have her toolkit. You said she is direct source for them, alongside Wrathion and other dragons.

    Now I am comparing the two. Their playstyle is vastly different and only general draconic theme remains.
    Evokers don’t need to play exactly like Alexstraza to be based on her. All they need are her basic mechanics, which they have.

    True, those are pretty generic themes connected to fantasy of Red Dragonflight. The reality is that Evoker and Alexstrazsa are mechanicaly completely different. Their similarities are only in theme. Not in gameplay. Even the final execution of Evoker class is different. Just basic inspirations remains.

    Uh how are they completely different? In both cases you can leave a visage form, turn into a red dragon damage enemies or heal allies with red dragon abilities and spells.

    Same can be done with forsaken druids having Insect theme. And I say Insect, not nerubian. They can easily have insectoid forms, inspired by nerubian design a bit, but be separate things.
    But that’s not the same, since Evokers have the abilities of red dragons, while the insect-based Druid won’t have any insect-based abilities.

    On the other hand, nerubians shapeshifting into sexy humanoids is something never seen in WoW or other materials like Hearthstone And HotS. That idea has no fundation in WoW. It is more DnD stuff with cult of Lloth, Drow culture, drydars, etc.
    And before Dracthyr, Black dragons had never successfully created a race of artificial dragons that could control the powers of all 5 dragonflights. Remember Pandaren? Before MoP Chen and all Pandaren came from Pandaria. In MoP that was retconned and Chen and playable Pandaren came from the Wandering Isle.

    If Blizzard can retcon that lore, them adding a bit more lore to Nerubians to make them playable isn’t a big deal. They’ve done that on a consistent basis over the years to multiple playable races.


    I am not saying it is impossible to add these things, but right now, we now have more material to expand druid into Insect/Death theme then expand nerubians to shapeshifters.
    [/QUOTE]

    Except you can’t expand Druids into that theme unless you start giving them significant insect/death abilities, and that simply isn’t going to happen.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because the poster I was responding to stated that Renferal’s spells were mechanically the same as a Druid’s.



    Evokers don’t need to play exactly like Alexstraza to be based on her. All they need are her basic mechanics, which they have.




    Uh how are they completely different? In both cases you can leave a visage form, turn into a red dragon damage enemies or heal allies with red dragon abilities and spells.



    But that’s not the same, since Evokers have the abilities of red dragons, while the insect-based Druid won’t have any insect-based abilities.



    And before Dracthyr, Black dragons had never successfully created a race of artificial dragons that could control the powers of all 5 dragonflights. Remember Pandaren? Before MoP Chen and all Pandaren came from Pandaria. In MoP that was retconned and Chen and playable Pandaren came from the Wandering Isle.

    If Blizzard can retcon that lore, them adding a bit more lore to Nerubians to make them playable isn’t a big deal. They’ve done that on a consistent basis over the years to multiple playable races.

    Except you can’t expand Druids into that theme unless you start giving them significant insect/death abilities, and that simply isn’t going to happen.[/QUOTE]

    No, Evokers don't have Basic mechanics of Alexstrasza, as I pointed out eatlier. But once again:

    Alexstrasza is not very mobile healer with high HP. She uses health as resource for her healing. She is burst healer, with strong single target healing and her AoE healing rellies on her allies having High HP. None of her actual abilities are translated to WoW.

    Preservation Evokers are highly mobile, HoT centric healer. They have weak single target. Their strenght is in combining spells into potent combos through echo and statis spells.

    Base mechanics are so different, that you can't really connect them. The only thing that they have in common, is their fantasy of Dragon based abilities.

    It is not that different to implementing Insect and Death theme to druids, both of which already found it's way to druid fantasy. Insect spells were a thing since vanilla and recently returned through Adaptive Swarm, and Death theme is introduced through Thornspeakers and connection of Ardenweald and Emerald Dream.

    Now, when you think about Undead druids, it is most likely that they will be drawing their power from Death. Insectoid forms seem like pretty good fit. Sure, they might end up with decayed cat and bear, I can't deny that... But they does not need to. A lot of new options were given to druids, often different to default cat/bear/deer/seal/crow forms. At this point, anything can happen.

    Also, when you are speaking of retcons, I can counter argument that they can easily retcon nerubians to work with druids. Ta daaaa. That is not really solid argument to make.

  3. #323
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    No, Evokers don't have Basic mechanics of Alexstrasza, as I pointed out eatlier. But once again:
    The Preservation Mastery is called Life-Binder. Where do you think that comes from?

    Alexstrasza is not very mobile healer with high HP. She uses health as resource for her healing. She is burst healer, with strong single target healing and her AoE healing rellies on her allies having High HP. None of her actual abilities are translated to WoW.

    Preservation Evokers are highly mobile, HoT centric healer. They have weak single target. Their strenght is in combining spells into potent combos through echo and statis spells.

    Base mechanics are so different, that you can't really connect them. The only thing that they have in common, is their fantasy of Dragon based abilities.
    So you completely ignored every example I gave and simply repeated what you posted in the previous post?

    Okay.

    It is not that different to implementing Insect and Death theme to druids, both of which already found it's way to druid fantasy. Insect spells were a thing since vanilla and recently returned through Adaptive Swarm, and Death theme is introduced through Thornspeakers and connection of Ardenweald and Emerald Dream.
    How is Druids getting a single insect-based ability that they might lose next expansion similar to Evokers having several of abilities and talents based on Alexstraza?

    Also you mentioned that Thornspeakers have a death theme. Cool. Name some death-based abilities in the Druid class that coincide with that theme.

    Now, when you think about Undead druids, it is most likely that they will be drawing their power from Death. Insectoid forms seem like pretty good fit. Sure, they might end up with decayed cat and bear, I can't deny that... But they does not need to. A lot of new options were given to druids, often different to default cat/bear/deer/seal/crow forms. At this point, anything can happen.

    Also, when you are speaking of retcons, I can counter argument that they can easily retcon nerubians to work with druids. Ta daaaa. That is not really solid argument to make.
    Except again, they can't because you'd need Nerubian abilities to coincide with that move. Druids are not going to get a set of death/insect abilities, much less an death/insect spec to justify such a form.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Preservation Mastery is called Life-Binder. Where do you think that comes from?



    So you completely ignored every example I gave and simply repeated what you posted in the previous post?

    Okay.



    How is Druids getting a single insect-based ability that they might lose next expansion similar to Evokers having several of abilities and talents based on Alexstraza?

    Also you mentioned that Thornspeakers have a death theme. Cool. Name some death-based abilities in the Druid class that coincide with that theme.



    Except again, they can't because you'd need Nerubian abilities to coincide with that move. Druids are not going to get a set of death/insect abilities, much less an death/insect spec to justify such a form.
    I don't argue that Evoker has visible inspiration from Alexstrasza and red dragonflight. In fact, they have inspiration from all flights, with hints here and there, which is completely fine... But it is just fantasy. A concept that was used to build a brand new class. Nothing like that exist before. Green dragons used mostly druid spells. Blue Dragons used Frost and Arcane spells which mages use.

    You said that Evoker and Alexstrasza share base mechanics. I showed you that it is not the case. Mechanicaly and gameplay wise, they are completely different. If we ignore that HotS and WoW are different type of games, both are so different archetypes, using completely different abilities. What the shares is Basic fantasy of Dragon class/hero. The only thing which the two have in common, is that both use fire breaths and has healing spells. Having spell name throwbacks which points that Alexstrasza was remembered during Evoker class design at some point does not mean much.

    Same goes for druids and insects. Blizzard seem to je expanding what druids are since BfA. First, we get first two druid races who are not originated in Cenarion Circle and for that reason, they have different forms, based on Drust and dinosaurs. With Ardenweald, we learned Nature is based on balace of Life and Death and both serve the Cycle. Both can be used. Kul Tirans do so. Concept of druids using Death is already here, and will be possibly expanded in future when Malfurion returns from Ardenweald.

    Allied race forms are remodeled cat/bear forms, but visually, they are vastly different. These forms were accepted well and since that, people request more and more druid form variants or even more customizations. Legion was also good on this, as it brought numerous form skins through artifacts. There is still big request for more and more druid form skins.

    I believe when Blizzard expand druid races, we might see additional changes how will druids work with their forms. In Shadowlands, chosing form was changed from glyphs to Barber shop, which opens a way more multiple options. Now with warlocks being opened to all races, they open imp customizations to Barber shop as well, which may expand to other lock pets in future too. Now, I would not be surprised if they decide to shake up things a bit and add new barbershop options for druid forms again.

    I also don't really know why are you refusing to admit that the Insect theme is obviously present within Druid class. NPCs, several actual class abilities from past and present and even Hearthstone are all showing this. To fullfil the "evil druid" niche, it is way more easy to expand existing class with new customizations. I am not even talking about undeads only. They can just do so for everyone. And that would still be less work than making whole new class, which Blizzard admited is probably the greatest commitment they make.

  5. #325
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    I don't argue that Evoker has visible inspiration from Alexstrasza and red dragonflight. In fact, they have inspiration from all flights, with hints here and there, which is completely fine... But it is just fantasy. A concept that was used to build a brand new class. Nothing like that exist before. Green dragons used mostly druid spells. Blue Dragons used Frost and Arcane spells which mages use.
    It goes beyond simple inspiration, they also have their abilities. Again, an Evoker can essentially do everything Alexstraza could do in HotS.

    You said that Evoker and Alexstrasza share base mechanics. I showed you that it is not the case. Mechanicaly and gameplay wise, they are completely different. If we ignore that HotS and WoW are different type of games, both are so different archetypes, using completely different abilities. What the shares is Basic fantasy of Dragon class/hero. The only thing which the two have in common, is that both use fire breaths and has healing spells. Having spell name throwbacks which points that Alexstrasza was remembered during Evoker class design at some point does not mean much.
    Evokers can switch out of Visage form and enter a dragon form. Just like Alexstraza.
    Evokers can heal with Dragon fire. Just like Alexstraza.
    Evokers can heal with Green dragon magic. Just like Alexstraza
    Evokers can fly in combat. Just like Alexstraza.
    Evokers' healing ability is effecting by the health of themselves and their targets. Just like Alexstraza.
    Evoker's have abilities that are empowered by their health levels. Just like Alexstraza.
    Evokers can utilize their draconic bodies to deal damage and for utility. Just like Alexstraza.

    That is significantly different than the insect druid situation.

    Same goes for druids and insects. Blizzard seem to je expanding what druids are since BfA. First, we get first two druid races who are not originated in Cenarion Circle and for that reason, they have different forms, based on Drust and dinosaurs. With Ardenweald, we learned Nature is based on balace of Life and Death and both serve the Cycle. Both can be used. Kul Tirans do so. Concept of druids using Death is already here, and will be possibly expanded in future when Malfurion returns from Ardenweald.

    Allied race forms are remodeled cat/bear forms, but visually, they are vastly different. These forms were accepted well and since that, people request more and more druid form variants or even more customizations. Legion was also good on this, as it brought numerous form skins through artifacts. There is still big request for more and more druid form skins.

    I believe when Blizzard expand druid races, we might see additional changes how will druids work with their forms. In Shadowlands, chosing form was changed from glyphs to Barber shop, which opens a way more multiple options. Now with warlocks being opened to all races, they open imp customizations to Barber shop as well, which may expand to other lock pets in future too. Now, I would not be surprised if they decide to shake up things a bit and add new barbershop options for druid forms again.

    I also don't really know why are you refusing to admit that the Insect theme is obviously present within Druid class. NPCs, several actual class abilities from past and present and even Hearthstone are all showing this. To fullfil the "evil druid" niche, it is way more easy to expand existing class with new customizations. I am not even talking about undeads only. They can just do so for everyone. And that would still be less work than making whole new class, which Blizzard admited is probably the greatest commitment they make.
    Okay, so once again, name some druid insect or death abilities. If there are none, then it isn't the same situation as the Evoker and ALexstraza.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It goes beyond simple inspiration, they also have their abilities. Again, an Evoker can essentially do everything Alexstraza could do in HotS.
    No, they can't.
    They can't transform into huge dragon.
    They can't set Lifebind how Alex does in HotS.
    They can't use their own life to heal their allies.
    Their fire breath does not slow enemies.
    They can't launch themselves into the air out of harms way, while also spitting fireballs which either heal or damage.
    They can't boost their spells while they are transformed into dragon.
    Similarly, Alexstrasza can't do many things which Evokers do.

    Mechanics of the two gameplays are different and has little common, besides fantasy and vague inspiration.

    Evokers can switch out of Visage form and enter a dragon form. Just like Alexstraza.
    Evokers can heal with Dragon fire. Just like Alexstraza.
    Evokers can heal with Green dragon magic. Just like Alexstraza
    Evokers can fly in combat. Just like Alexstraza.
    Evokers' healing ability is effecting by the health of themselves and their targets. Just like Alexstraza.
    Evoker's have abilities that are empowered by their health levels. Just like Alexstraza.
    Evokers can utilize their draconic bodies to deal damage and for utility. Just like Alexstraza.

    That is significantly different than the insect druid situation.
    Alexstrasza can't use Green spell, because she is a Red dragon, not a Green one. She canonicaly does not have any powers of Dream, which Greens have. She has only powers over Life.
    Also how evokers affect life of their target is again really different to Alexstrasza. Their healing is increased when they have more health then their target. Alexstrasza set her target's life to her percentage. Two themeticaly similar things, but mechanicaly different.
    Using their wings and tails in combat is not really based on Alexstrasza, but on general dragon fantasy. Almost all dragons in WoW history have ability to do so. Same goes for flying... not to mention that flying mechanics on Evoker and Alex are, again, completely separate and different things.

    As I said, the two are clearly connected in some way, but clearly not on mechanical level. It is more than clear that on Evokers, dragons were source of inspiration, but the actual mechanics are brand new.-



    Okay, so once again, name some druid insect or death abilities. If there are none, then it isn't the same situation as the Evoker and ALexstraza.
    Adaptive Swarm.
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=391891/adaptive-swarm

    And on WoW classic, Insect Swarm:
    https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spel...7/insect-swarm

    Both of these have some talents which further enhances them.

    Also, there are two insect forms already. Sable Ardenmoth...

    https://www.wowhead.com/item=187937/...able-ardenmoth

    ... and Shimmering Ardenmoth

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=360545...ring-ardenmoth

    I noticed you also like Hearthstone and use it as a source for your ideas and arguments. Let's have a look over there. We all know that Hearthstone is not canon, but it is more of a WHAT IF scenarios, some of them eventually ended up in WoW anyway. Hearthstone answer us the question how it would look if a druid was turned undead.

    Malfurion the Pestilent
    https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/..._the_Pestilent
    - he summons insects

    Some Druid spells from the same expansion:
    - Webweave: https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Webweave
    - Crypt Lord: https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Crypt_Lord
    - Druid of the Swarm: https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Druid_of_the_Swarm

    Oh, look... druid of the swarm can transform into an insect.
    Why don't undead druids in this expansion just transform into necrotic bears and cats?

    So, there are some insect druid spells after all.

  7. #327
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Lol I forgot that the Crypt Lord was classified as a Druid in hearthstone.

    Oh, look... druid of the swarm can transform into an insect.
    Why don't undead druids in this expansion just transform into necrotic bears and cats?
    He’s only saying they “can’t/won’t” because it doesn’t fit into his fan fiction. Nothing new with Teriz.

    I remember when he swore up and down Blizz would only add a dragon class if it was an actual large four legged dragon and that we’d never get a Dragonkin like Drakonids.
    He also swore up and down Dracthyr would never be able to wear any armor or equip weapons, especially ones that’d sheath at the hip.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    This proposed class would have three specs;

    Crypt Lord-based (tanking)
    Mantid-based (RDPS)
    Spider-based (heal-based Support)
    So just druids without a melee DPS.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2023-05-26 at 02:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    Lol I forgot that the Crypt Lord was classified as a Druid in hearthstone.



    He’s only saying they “can’t/won’t” because it doesn’t fit into his fan fiction. Nothing new with Teriz.

    I remember when he swore up and down Blizz would only add a dragon class if it was an actual large bipedal dragon and that we’d never get a Dragonkin like Drakonids.
    He also swore up and down Dracthyr would never be able to wear any armor or equip weapons, especially ones that’d sheath at the hip.
    Honestly, he has some great ideas... But the fact he can't accept any thought that does not align with his stanpoint is making any discussion hard.

    It sometimes get ridiculous... But it seems that majority of people does not share his ideas.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    Honestly, he has some great ideas... But the fact he can't accept any thought that does not align with his stanpoint is making any discussion hard.

    It sometimes get ridiculous... But it seems that majority of people does not share his ideas.
    It's no different than any of this other concept threads.

    Even the thread in my sig explains his thought process and argument style. It's an overly defensive take-it-or-break-it attitude, where it either works his way or it doesn't work st all. And only he can decide to change the paradigm, anything you say will be argued to not work if it doesn't meet his personal stamp of approval.

    Like his vision of Bards as working only if they get themed around ETC and his mechanics. If you ever try to suggest a different angle, he'll just push the 'well it isn't based on any existing Hero' argument and try to run it into the ground. All the while, Blizzard can just invent a new Bard character and do away with all those arguments.

    This same shit happened with Draconic class discussion, where he was all-in on Chromatic Dragonflight or bust. Suggest anything else and he'd argue against it not previously existing in the lore or not being based on previous mechanics or not representing Dragons in the specific way he expects them to play. It's all deconstructive discussion. Take it, or break it.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Would've loved to see that original 6-hero lineup version of the game. Might've been a bit janky and abilities might've been a bit simplified, but I really did wish there were more heroes like the Arch Druid or Crusader available.

    Still, I always thought the Moonkin was an odd outlier design in WoW. I never expected they would adopt it as the Druid's primary caster form. Their connection to Elune never really made much sense to me; they were fairly neutral beasts in WC3 with no real known connection to Elune. Night Elves were slaughtering em wholesale.
    Owl PotM was my desire and I was super happy when it was realised that the snowy owl portrait was actually just, the PotM's owl reskinned. People managed to get it semi-working like it would have in the day. blizz, can we have owl mounts. Let me embrace the dream. (also an eagle. That roosts when standing unlike our rogue ravens)

    I suspect it was a bit of just wanting to give the druid something as a big capstone at that point given the revamp at the time, and drawing from WoW's minor lore that went "Oh hey, Moonkin are related to Elune and what-not" and their reasonably close skeleton to the... Reasonably recently re-vamped ogres to basically get another use out of the work they did on ogres. Mind, I don't remember pre-1.8 druid. I was a hunter main, y'see, and we were sort of happy that Survival's capstone was no longer the joke that was lacerate.

  11. #331
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's no different than any of this other concept threads.

    Even the thread in my sig explains his thought process and argument style. It's an overly defensive take-it-or-break-it attitude, where it either works his way or it doesn't work st all. And only he can decide to change the paradigm, anything you say will be argued to not work if it doesn't meet his personal stamp of approval.

    Like his vision of Bards as working only if they get themed around ETC and his mechanics. If you ever try to suggest a different angle, he'll just push the 'well it isn't based on any existing Hero' argument and try to run it into the ground. All the while, Blizzard can just invent a new Bard character and do away with all those arguments.

    This same shit happened with Draconic class discussion, where he was all-in on Chromatic Dragonflight or bust. Suggest anything else and he'd argue against it not previously existing in the lore or not being based on previous mechanics or not representing Dragons in the specific way he expects them to play. It's all deconstructive discussion. Take it, or break it.
    I mean you’d think that after how completely wrong he was about Evoker he would’ve gotten an idea that his concepts weren’t gospel and weren’t “the only way” for Blizzard to do things.

    (Each spec being based on a single dragonflight & directly copying Hots. No black dragon tank spec, no bronze ranged DPS spec, no red healing spec. No actual four legged dragons. No Blue/Green specs because mages/druids cover that… etc)
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2023-05-26 at 03:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's no different than any of this other concept threads.

    Even the thread in my sig explains his thought process and argument style. It's an overly defensive take-it-or-break-it attitude, where it either works his way or it doesn't work st all. And only he can decide to change the paradigm, anything you say will be argued to not work if it doesn't meet his personal stamp of approval.

    Like his vision of Bards as working only if they get themed around ETC and his mechanics. If you ever try to suggest a different angle, he'll just push the 'well it isn't based on any existing Hero' argument and try to run it into the ground. All the while, Blizzard can just invent a new Bard character and do away with all those arguments.

    This same shit happened with Draconic class discussion, where he was all-in on Chromatic Dragonflight or bust. Suggest anything else and he'd argue against it not previously existing in the lore or not being based on previous mechanics or not representing Dragons in the specific way he expects them to play. It's all deconstructive discussion. Take it, or break it.
    Well, I remembered how adamant he was that Bards can only be metalheads, because of ETC, but in this thread, it is fine that Crypt Lord will not be just Crypt lord, but also mantid and even DnD drider-like sexy spider...

    Anyway, I did not want to necro this discussion. I believe Blizzard should eventually start with class skins, instead of many new classes. The trend of opening all classes to all races could certainly house that. It is one of the things that players are asking for and are still waiting to be announced, lol.

  13. #333
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I wouldn't, because I don't believe that Druids are getting Nerubian forms, and all druid forms are essentially the same across races. The only one that really sticks out is the Zalandari Moonkin form.
    You're moving the goalposts again. Your argument was that "the zandalari Guardian form uses bear abilities", and I asked you why do you think a forsaken druid with a nerubian form wouldn't also use the same bear abilities.

    It had the qualities of a blood spell though.
    It didn't, though.

    Also the DK's runic weapon was vampiric.
    So? That's like saying paladins should gain Titan powers because they got the Val'anyr weapon in Wrath.

    Yeah, but Blizzard wouldn't make Nerubians Druids.
    Why wouldn't they? Again, you keep asserting that, but you haven't yet given a single reason as to why that wouldn't apply to the zandalari druid's dino forms.

    Again, it's really mostly about mechanics.
    Then if the conversation is about game mechanics, do not muddle the topic by bringing lore into it.

    but the simple reality is that the only way a player will truly get to experience playing as a nerubian is via a new Nerubian-based class.
    In your opinion. There's others who would be okay with having representation through druid forms.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So? That's like saying paladins should gain Titan powers because they got the Val'anyr weapon in Wrath.
    Or saying that Warrior is a titan based class, because it has Titan's Grasp and Odyn's Fury

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Eh, plenty of people want to play as Nerubians and Mantid. It's been requested.

    Also some of the Aqir races already have humanoid forms, including the Nerubians. Makes sense for Nerubians to make themselves look like other races in order to blend in and not scare people. Dragons and Worgens do the same thing.
    Dude it makes sense for ANY “animalish mob type” to disguise himself in humanoid form to avoid other humanoids be scared to death but we just can’t have all of them in a playable form.

    I can’t honestly see all these people interested in playing as a Nerubian.

  16. #336
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    I mean you’d think that after how completely wrong he was about Evoker he would’ve gotten an idea that his concepts weren’t gospel and weren’t “the only way” for Blizzard to do things.
    Actually, he retroactively changes his "Blizzard class design rules" every time something happens that goes against his concepts. First it was "needs WC3 hero", then it became "needs WC3 hero or WoW hero", then it became "needs WC3 hero, HotS hero or WoW hero", etc. He does that after every time he says "Blizzard won't do X because of Y" and then Blizzard does 'X' while completely disregarding 'Y'.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  17. #337
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaedan View Post
    No, they can't.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Visage_(racial)

    They can't transform into huge dragon.
    A player sized dragon is still a dragon.


    They can't launch themselves into the air out of harms way, while also spitting fireballs which either heal or damage.
    See Deep Breath or Breath of Eons.

    They can't set Lifebind how Alex does in HotS.
    They can't use their own life to heal their allies.
    Their fire breath does not slow enemies.
    M can't boost their spells while they are transformed into dragon.
    Similarly, Alexstrasza can't do many things which Evokers do.
    Again, where did I say that they’re exactly alike?

    Mechanics of the two gameplays are different and has little common, besides fantasy and vague inspiration.
    Again in both cases you have a character switching in and out of visage form into dragon form and dealing damage or healing using red (and green) dragon abilities.


    Alexstrasza can't use Green spell, because she is a Red dragon, not a Green one. She canonicaly does not have any powers of Dream, which Greens have. She has only powers over Life.
    Yet Abundance is a green spell and entered the Evoker class as Emerald Blossom.

    Using their wings and tails in combat is not really based on Alexstrasza, but on general dragon fantasy. Almost all dragons in WoW history have ability to do so.
    Oh? Before Alexstraza which one?


    As I said, the two are clearly connected in some way, but clearly not on mechanical level. It is more than clear that on Evokers, dragons were source of inspiration, but the actual mechanics are brand new.-
    So again we’re going to ignore visage form, the ability to heal and deal damage with fire, the mastery being based on Alex, multiple abilities in the Evoker class that directly come from Alex HotS, etc.?


    Adaptive Swarm.
    I guess so that’s a yes.

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=391891/adaptive-swarm

    And on WoW classic, Insect Swarm:
    https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spel...7/insect-swarm

    Both of these have some talents which further enhances them.
    Except Druids no longer have insect swarm, so that just leaves adaptive swarm, which is a single ability. Again, we have dozens of red dragon abilities in the Evoker class, so how is the single insect-based ability comparable?


    Also, there are two insect forms already. Sable Ardenmoth...

    https://www.wowhead.com/item=187937/...able-ardenmoth

    ... and Shimmering Ardenmoth

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=360545...ring-ardenmoth
    Which are completely irrelevant since they’re not combat forms, and they have no corresponding ability beyond the form.

    I noticed you also like Hearthstone and use it as a source for your ideas and arguments. Let's have a look over there. We all know that Hearthstone is not canon, but it is more of a WHAT IF scenarios, some of them eventually ended up in WoW anyway. Hearthstone answer us the question how it would look if a druid was turned undead.

    Malfurion the Pestilent
    https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/..._the_Pestilent
    - he summons insects

    Some Druid spells from the same expansion:
    - Webweave: https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Webweave
    - Crypt Lord: https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Crypt_Lord
    - Druid of the Swarm: https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Druid_of_the_Swarm

    Oh, look... druid of the swarm can transform into an insect.
    Why don't undead druids in this expansion just transform into necrotic bears and cats?

    So, there are some insect druid spells after all.
    One insect spell in WoW is not “some”. Btw, you know it’s slim pickings when we have to use Hearthstone cards for WoW abilities.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade711 View Post
    So just druids without a melee DPS.
    Well no since Druids have none of the required abilities.

  18. #338
    Herald of the Titans Nightshade711's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    See Deep Breath or Breath of Eons.

    Oh? Before Alexstraza which one?

    So again we’re going to ignore visage form
    It’s pretty clear that a lot of the Evoker fantasy is based on Onyxia. Even in interviews before launch they compared Evoker’s visage to being “Onyxia in disguise” if we wanted.
    Deep Breath in particular is literally Onyxia’s “breath” ability.
    Tail swipe & Wing Buffer started with her too. Unless you’re gonna say Alexstraza in Hots existed before vanilla WoW.

    Except Druids no longer have insect swarm.
    Um. They still do in classic. And the fantasy of it exists still in the Druid class across media like hots.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well no since Druids have none of the required abilities.
    Which isn’t needed.
    The fantasy of all of your """required""" abilities can be achieved with cosmetic glyphs or even a Druid of the Nightmare class skin, if Blizzard goes that route.

    The fact that you say they’re even a “evil druid” kind of shows that.
    Last edited by Nightshade711; 2023-05-26 at 04:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Chen isn't a Monk

  19. #339
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except Druids no longer have insect swarm,
    I remember, back before the demon hunter class was announced, in one of the many threads about it, one of your arguments against the class was that "Mana Burn went to the priest", and when it was pointed out that the class no longer had the spell anymore (it was removed in MoP), your counter-argument would be "well it could always come back".

    So why could the Mana Burn come back, but Insect Swarm can't?
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  20. #340
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You're moving the goalposts again. Your argument was that "the zandalari Guardian form uses bear abilities", and I asked you why do you think a forsaken druid with a nerubian form wouldn't also use the same bear abilities.
    Because Nerubians aren’t bears, and they’re not beasts.

    I’m pretty sure Blizzard realizes that.

    It didn't, though.
    Draining life force from one to restore the DK is pretty much Blood magic. That’s what Death Pact did.

    So? That's like saying paladins should gain Titan powers because they got the Val'anyr weapon in Wrath.
    Well not really, since runic weapons are a core aspect of the DK class. If that Titan weapon was a core aspect of the Paladin class, then your argument would be relevant.


    Why wouldn't they? Again, you keep asserting that, but you haven't yet given a single reason as to why that wouldn't apply to the zandalari druid's dino forms.
    Because Crypt Lords have unique abilities. Also even if we’ve talking about insect forms, the Druid class doesn’t have the ability set to properly represent it. Dinosaurs work with bear and cat form. Insects don’t.

    Then if the conversation is about game mechanics, do not muddle the topic by bringing lore into it.
    It’s rather unavoidable.

    In your opinion. There's others who would be okay with having representation through druid forms.
    Only because they erroneously believe that Blizzard is going to reskin abilities to match the form.

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