What's the state of PvP like today?

[HansOlo]

Progression is completely gone from pvp, people wanted it - I didnt, now it made me stop playing pvp altogether.

Nice MMORPG where time spent investing in character means nothing. My interest in arena and pushing rating is pretty much gone and that was my main thing to do in the game in SL so gj blizz.

Also solo shuffle was a nice idea but they didn't address two fundamental issues with it - queue times for DPS and rating gains for healer draws so I lost interest in that halfway through the expansion too.

As a side effect it also killed casual 2v2s so there is that...

You really can't fix "queue" times. Should they implement AI healer bots? They wont do rating gain for healers, because the healers won't match the DPS skillcaps. In return - both DPS and healers will perform worse.

2nd - there are more people doing Arenas than before. I don't have a source, so this is personal observation(from community sites). But there is an increased interest in PvP(just like in this thread) - people are doing SS - also people who never done PvP before.

Overall - the state of PvP is better than ever before.

I know that PvPers are zugzugz, but come on now.

- - - Updated - - -

Depends on the rating 2-20min as dps unless you are glad+.

You should be able to play 3xSS pr. hr, where each session is lasting approx 10-15min per matchup.

That is about 45min of gameplay during that 1 hour. That is not bad.

[melzas]

You really can't fix "queue" times. Should they implement AI healer bots? They wont do rating gain for healers, because the healers won't match the DPS skillcaps. In return - both DPS and healers will perform worse.

2nd - there are more people doing Arenas than before. I don't have a source, so this is personal observation(from community sites). But there is an increased interest in PvP(just like in this thread) - people are doing SS - also people who never done PvP before.

Overall - the state of PvP is better than ever before.

I know that PvPers are zugzugz, but come on now.

False. It's very easy to reduce queue times for dps, just make SS more lucrative for healers, be it rating, cosmetics, power, whatever.

Your observations are also wrong, just look at the ladders and compare them to SL, it's not rocket science that constructed arena interest plummeted down in DF.

[Cynical Asshole]

Don't play ranged specs for solo casual PVP. Rogues, warriors and rets will shit all over you because they have more ways stick to you than you have of keeping them away, or they just kill you from range.

The only ranged spec that kinda works is a very special MM hunter spec that takes all traps and ccs available to the class, but it's still very hard because by the time you make a rogue or warrior run out of shit and become vulnerable to kiting, you are pretty much dead due to garbage defenses compared to theirs.

[nvaelz]

There's like a million ways to describe why the game is bad right now.
The game is soft. Damage is gated, healing is overpowered. Small things matter less. All about the whole package.
I've never had this much difficulty 1v2ing players in Skirmish. I've never been so tilted at my teammates in battlegrounds either, cuz now they matter to me.

I remember once upon a time I would attack 5 random players in World and give a really good fight, sometimes I would win, or I would kite them or I would lose. But there was hope. Nowadays if I would attack 5 players I would have 0% chance to win 0% chance to run away, unless I'm on a cliff somewhere and I can Goblin Glider away. The only way to win nowadays in scenarios like that is not attempting them at all!

The small things that used to matter, having advantages with positioning or reactivity or outplaying critically matters so much less now. The game isn't bad there's good flow of energy, energy matters ALOT the game is good WHEN you have good teammates. Because the game used to be better with bad teammates, I used to enjoy playing with bad players because it was fun to try to help them or solo the other team or stuff like that, but now I need my teammate to make me win no matter what.
It's dumb how streamlined and balanced this game is, but this balance supports bad players so much, makes them not get aoe farmed by some monsters or r1 glads in world. Good for them.

I get this sluggish feeling when playing DF, like I'm loading up my spells, like I'm going through a rotation all the time. Revving up my engine. But my engine is capped, and my engine can't overpower 2 engines. It just takes so much more time to get going now, I used to complain about infinite mobility, and I was hopeful that GCDs would mean more in DF since that was my assumption since in SL game became alot more about CDs, but I was so wrong because in SL the GCDs were much stronger, and the CDS were much weaker. I just can't see how TWW will be different from DF looks just as sluggish, revving up abilities,

Even if Classic is too old, underdeveloped when it comes to PVP what made WoW good was that crit damage, that 1 second timing needed to overcome, if you didn't start casting your heal before that 1 second was up you'd die, if you didn't fear that rogue's ambush you'd die, stuff like that, when you hit someone with a mortal strike crit they'd take so much damage, what used to matter was more immediate impacts, now what matters is going through these patterns and these same patterns are HYPERBALANCED to not be viable 1v2 or more, they're balanced to be balanced with balanced power in your balanced teammates and it's even more triggering how healer balance is like 3 times more important, it's all so predetermined now, all so communistic.

I'm utterly depressed when my random teammate doesn't join the skirmish, and I'm facing 1v2, it's not a fun feeling in that challenge, there's this MINIMAL hope that I play much better than them, but it's so narrow now, it's not even fun to try anymore.

These critical timings, these high reactivity moves doesn't matter to overcome uneven numbers. That's why PVPers are having so much fun in Cata! Because in Cata when you do something good you notice it. You can easily dominate multiple players in Cata, cuz the game isn't balanced to adjust to bad players.

Doesn't mean you won't need a strong team to beat a strong team, every person matters the same, it's just that now every person matters WAY more on lower levels, there's just a bad taste in my mouth even thinking about how poorly designed PVP is now. It disrespects the entire history of WoW, it's like The Acolyte disrespects Star Wars. It's just something entirely different now, but atleast it shows itself different, but WoW fools people to think it's the same, I don't think it's good for 2 bad players to easily beat anyone in the game, if 2 bad players easily beat anyone then who is strong? It's like individual strength doesn't matter now.

I won't ever get this feeling in Retail, that this Warlock that I'm Mind Blasting is unprepared that I'm casting this spell, and this spell hurts the Warlock, nah, Now in Retail it doesn't matter if the Warlock is unprepared, because the buildup to REAL activity takes SOOOO long, so there's never this feeling of surprising or taking advantage in that way. My Mind Blast will do like 1% hp damage on the Warlock now. It's just all replaced by this revving up the engine playstyle and it's SO SLOW, you might think DF is fast, but it's because everything matters way less, and at the same time the defensive cds and selfheals are super powerful, like there's just nothing to be done vs them except equally within equal numbers trading, it's really really bad when you understand.


TL;DR
It's really difficult to play good now, but it's also really easy when playing bad now. If that makes sense. I don't like that it's so easy when playing bad now. That's my whole problem.

The solution? Tone down all healers and hybrid healing, and defensive cd healing. Step a bit back from the new style of revving the engine so to speak, and go back to critical timings, and make that feel good again. There's too much rotational bloat. Maybe there's not too much rotational bloat, I can see it working but there needs to be severe tuning, WoW used to be good, used to have really good combat mechanics it's there the knowledge exists. I want a modern WoW I don't want the old WoW, but the good stuff has been DELETED and I don't know if it's on purpose or pure ignorance.

[Cynical Asshole]

Arms warriors, demon hunters and rogues shitting on everybody.

[BlackRedGreenofc]

There's like a million ways to describe why the game is bad right now.
The game is soft. Damage is gated, healing is overpowered. Small things matter less. All about the whole package.
I've never had this much difficulty 1v2ing players in Skirmish. I've never been so tilted at my teammates in battlegrounds either, cuz now they matter to me.

I remember once upon a time I would attack 5 random players in World and give a really good fight, sometimes I would win, or I would kite them or I would lose. But there was hope. Nowadays if I would attack 5 players I would have 0% chance to win 0% chance to run away, unless I'm on a cliff somewhere and I can Goblin Glider away. The only way to win nowadays in scenarios like that is not attempting them at all!

The small things that used to matter, having advantages with positioning or reactivity or outplaying critically matters so much less now. The game isn't bad there's good flow of energy, energy matters ALOT the game is good WHEN you have good teammates. Because the game used to be better with bad teammates, I used to enjoy playing with bad players because it was fun to try to help them or solo the other team or stuff like that, but now I need my teammate to make me win no matter what.
It's dumb how streamlined and balanced this game is, but this balance supports bad players so much, makes them not get aoe farmed by some monsters or r1 glads in world. Good for them.

I get this sluggish feeling when playing DF, like I'm loading up my spells, like I'm going through a rotation all the time. Revving up my engine. But my engine is capped, and my engine can't overpower 2 engines. It just takes so much more time to get going now, I used to complain about infinite mobility, and I was hopeful that GCDs would mean more in DF since that was my assumption since in SL game became alot more about CDs, but I was so wrong because in SL the GCDs were much stronger, and the CDS were much weaker. I just can't see how TWW will be different from DF looks just as sluggish, revving up abilities,

Even if Classic is too old, underdeveloped when it comes to PVP what made WoW good was that crit damage, that 1 second timing needed to overcome, if you didn't start casting your heal before that 1 second was up you'd die, if you didn't fear that rogue's ambush you'd die, stuff like that, when you hit someone with a mortal strike crit they'd take so much damage, what used to matter was more immediate impacts, now what matters is going through these patterns and these same patterns are HYPERBALANCED to not be viable 1v2 or more, they're balanced to be balanced with balanced power in your balanced teammates and it's even more triggering how healer balance is like 3 times more important, it's all so predetermined now, all so communistic.

I'm utterly depressed when my random teammate doesn't join the skirmish, and I'm facing 1v2, it's not a fun feeling in that challenge, there's this MINIMAL hope that I play much better than them, but it's so narrow now, it's not even fun to try anymore.

These critical timings, these high reactivity moves doesn't matter to overcome uneven numbers. That's why PVPers are having so much fun in Cata! Because in Cata when you do something good you notice it. You can easily dominate multiple players in Cata, cuz the game isn't balanced to adjust to bad players.

Doesn't mean you won't need a strong team to beat a strong team, every person matters the same, it's just that now every person matters WAY more on lower levels, there's just a bad taste in my mouth even thinking about how poorly designed PVP is now. It disrespects the entire history of WoW, it's like The Acolyte disrespects Star Wars. It's just something entirely different now, but atleast it shows itself different, but WoW fools people to think it's the same, I don't think it's good for 2 bad players to easily beat anyone in the game, if 2 bad players easily beat anyone then who is strong? It's like individual strength doesn't matter now.

I won't ever get this feeling in Retail, that this Warlock that I'm Mind Blasting is unprepared that I'm casting this spell, and this spell hurts the Warlock, nah, Now in Retail it doesn't matter if the Warlock is unprepared, because the buildup to REAL activity takes SOOOO long, so there's never this feeling of surprising or taking advantage in that way. My Mind Blast will do like 1% hp damage on the Warlock now. It's just all replaced by this revving up the engine playstyle and it's SO SLOW, you might think DF is fast, but it's because everything matters way less, and at the same time the defensive cds and selfheals are super powerful, like there's just nothing to be done vs them except equally within equal numbers trading, it's really really bad when you understand.


TL;DR
It's really difficult to play good now, but it's also really easy when playing bad now. If that makes sense. I don't like that it's so easy when playing bad now. That's my whole problem.

The solution? Tone down all healers and hybrid healing, and defensive cd healing. Step a bit back from the new style of revving the engine so to speak, and go back to critical timings, and make that feel good again. There's too much rotational bloat. Maybe there's not too much rotational bloat, I can see it working but there needs to be severe tuning, WoW used to be good, used to have really good combat mechanics it's there the knowledge exists. I want a modern WoW I don't want the old WoW, but the good stuff has been DELETED and I don't know if it's on purpose or pure ignorance.

I wonder how long it will take for you to realize that nobody reads your wall of texts you're constantly posting ?

I don't mean to sound rude, but it's the truth. If you want people to pay attention to what you have to say, maybe stick to the TL;DR version.

Have a great day !

[nvaelz]

I wonder how long it will take for you to realize that nobody reads your wall of texts you're constantly posting ?

I don't mean to sound rude, but it's the truth. If you want people to pay attention to what you have to say, maybe stick to the TL;DR version.

Have a great day !

So the truth is that You know that no one reads my walls of text, which sullies your criticism with passive aggression. I do appreciate the criticism. I want to write more compact messages, it's a passion of mine. Sincerely thanks.

-----

Anyways, I came here to complain again.
I've been playing Fury Warrior the past days, grinding 2v2 and farming gear. It's been a ride so far. Having a good time.
The game isn't bad. But sometimes it feels so dumb. Like there's too much CD power, and not enough finesse. The finesse is still there but it's lowered in impact.
I remember dying if missing a fakecast, but now you can probably miss a fakecast on 30% HP and survive.

People complain about micro-ccs but the micro-ccs hold less value nowadays. If you go into Cataclysm and kick a player on 100% HP it's a dangerous position to be in. Take old WoW where CDs had very little value compared to now, everything was about a different kind of pressure. But now all that pressure is negated. Every class has divine shield. Some multiple.

All-in-all it's not a bad thing to make the game less scripted, which is what's good about Dragonflight. On the other hand the downside is that you can stand stupid and press your CDs and be a bad player as long as you press them. It takes a really long time to kill for example a hunter. General hunter playstyle = tank damage and press deterence, like that's the norm. Takes a long time to kill a hunter, no matter what.

It makes me feel really really annoyed when I see a hunter whom is not using any finesse. Not kiting, not trapping, not doing these things, but is still a huge threat. The level of play is so automated by that. I can't say people are bad for just relying on CDs to play, since that's how the game is now, so they're good at it. But I think they should flop harder, like players need to learn how to play not just be guided into this CD rotation that somehow lets them play. And this is all about that lower end of players.

If I'm queueing skirmish, and someone doesn't join my team and it's 3v3. I want to atleast have a slight chance to win 2v3. I want Blizzard to reduce impossibilities when it comes to that. I simply want it to feel good to try, but it's like so impossible, and then the game feels super rigged. That's what I hate.

-----

There's alot of positives to the current balance. There's many layers of complexity. For example when facing a counter, all these layers must be handled, I don't know how to put it but you need to win on more levels, which is interesting and fun and challenging.
Which is better than in the past. Counter comps felt way worse in the past somehow. Atleast when it was equal on skill levels. In the past if someone's counter comp was a bit lower in skill level they probably flopped anyways, but now,

The demand when facing a counter-comp is heavier, since more layers, more added responsibilities to win. Which puts the weight on the countered team to outperform on a more complex + more difficult level, while simultaneously lessening the skill required for the counter-comp. A good thing.

To repeat this sentiment:
In the past while facing a counter-comp they could more simply flop since there were less layers of complexity, but equally they could also dominate harder because of less layers of complexity.

The solution I hope is in line with what we have now, I hope Blizzard is aware of their games integrity on this level. I want to see players NOT play Classic because PVP is more fun there. I want players to think it's stupid to play Classic because Retail is so much better, on every level.

That's my real desire.

So I think a simple idea that 2v3 should feel less impossible is a good viewpoint.
As a finale to my wall-of-text that no one ever reads, and I don't really care if anyone does.

I just want a game where I don't avoid attacking 3 players at once in War Mode. I want a game where Random Battleground premades become extinct because we don't need eachother to dominate a Random Battleground anymore. I want a game where I don't calculate impossibilities when facing adversities that aren't in-line with the equalnumber vs. equalnumber paradigm.

[BlackRedGreenofc]

So the truth is that You know that no one reads my walls of text, which sullies your criticism with passive aggression. I do appreciate the criticism. I want to write more compact messages, it's a passion of mine. Sincerely thanks.

-----

Anyways, I came here to complain again.
I've been playing Fury Warrior the past days, grinding 2v2 and farming gear. It's been a ride so far. Having a good time.
The game isn't bad. But sometimes it feels so dumb. Like there's too much CD power, and not enough finesse. The finesse is still there but it's lowered in impact.
I remember dying if missing a fakecast, but now you can probably miss a fakecast on 30% HP and survive.

People complain about micro-ccs but the micro-ccs hold less value nowadays. If you go into Cataclysm and kick a player on 100% HP it's a dangerous position to be in. Take old WoW where CDs had very little value compared to now, everything was about a different kind of pressure. But now all that pressure is negated. Every class has divine shield. Some multiple.

All-in-all it's not a bad thing to make the game less scripted, which is what's good about Dragonflight. On the other hand the downside is that you can stand stupid and press your CDs and be a bad player as long as you press them. It takes a really long time to kill for example a hunter. General hunter playstyle = tank damage and press deterence, like that's the norm. Takes a long time to kill a hunter, no matter what.

It makes me feel really really annoyed when I see a hunter whom is not using any finesse. Not kiting, not trapping, not doing these things, but is still a huge threat. The level of play is so automated by that. I can't say people are bad for just relying on CDs to play, since that's how the game is now, so they're good at it. But I think they should flop harder, like players need to learn how to play not just be guided into this CD rotation that somehow lets them play. And this is all about that lower end of players.

If I'm queueing skirmish, and someone doesn't join my team and it's 3v3. I want to atleast have a slight chance to win 2v3. I want Blizzard to reduce impossibilities when it comes to that. I simply want it to feel good to try, but it's like so impossible, and then the game feels super rigged. That's what I hate.

-----

There's alot of positives to the current balance. There's many layers of complexity. For example when facing a counter, all these layers must be handled, I don't know how to put it but you need to win on more levels, which is interesting and fun and challenging.
Which is better than in the past. Counter comps felt way worse in the past somehow. Atleast when it was equal on skill levels. In the past if someone's counter comp was a bit lower in skill level they probably flopped anyways, but now,

The demand when facing a counter-comp is heavier, since more layers, more added responsibilities to win. Which puts the weight on the countered team to outperform on a more complex + more difficult level, while simultaneously lessening the skill required for the counter-comp. A good thing.

To repeat this sentiment:
In the past while facing a counter-comp they could more simply flop since there were less layers of complexity, but equally they could also dominate harder because of less layers of complexity.

The solution I hope is in line with what we have now, I hope Blizzard is aware of their games integrity on this level. I want to see players NOT play Classic because PVP is more fun there. I want players to think it's stupid to play Classic because Retail is so much better, on every level.

That's my real desire.

So I think a simple idea that 2v3 should feel less impossible is a good viewpoint.
As a finale to my wall-of-text that no one ever reads, and I don't really care if anyone does.

I just want a game where I don't avoid attacking 3 players at once in War Mode. I want a game where Random Battleground premades become extinct because we don't need eachother to dominate a Random Battleground anymore. I want a game where I don't calculate impossibilities when facing adversities that aren't in-line with the equalnumber vs. equalnumber paradigm.

If it's a passion of yours, go write a book. This is a forum. Doesn't it make you feel weird that you're typing all this out, spending your time, energy and nobody even reads it ? If your objective is to communicate, you're doing it wrong. You're a prime example of someone who has very little self awareness. But hey sorry for even trying to help man. I'm done wasting my time.

[Syegfryed]

If it's a passion of yours, go write a book. This is a forum. Doesn't it make you feel weird that you're typing all this out, spending your time, energy and nobody even reads it ? If your objective is to communicate, you're doing it wrong. You're a prime example of someone who has very little self awareness. But hey sorry for even trying to help man. I'm done wasting my time.

The forum is to write stuff, just let the dude be, if you don't like you can ignore. it is with the attitude of yours this forum is dead

[Flaks]

So the truth is that You know that no one reads my walls of text, which sullies your criticism with passive aggression. I do appreciate the criticism. I want to write more compact messages, it's a passion of mine. Sincerely thanks.

-----

Anyways, I came here to complain again.
I've been playing Fury Warrior the past days, grinding 2v2 and farming gear. It's been a ride so far. Having a good time.
The game isn't bad. But sometimes it feels so dumb. Like there's too much CD power, and not enough finesse. The finesse is still there but it's lowered in impact.
I remember dying if missing a fakecast, but now you can probably miss a fakecast on 30% HP and survive.

People complain about micro-ccs but the micro-ccs hold less value nowadays. If you go into Cataclysm and kick a player on 100% HP it's a dangerous position to be in. Take old WoW where CDs had very little value compared to now, everything was about a different kind of pressure. But now all that pressure is negated. Every class has divine shield. Some multiple.

All-in-all it's not a bad thing to make the game less scripted, which is what's good about Dragonflight. On the other hand the downside is that you can stand stupid and press your CDs and be a bad player as long as you press them. It takes a really long time to kill for example a hunter. General hunter playstyle = tank damage and press deterence, like that's the norm. Takes a long time to kill a hunter, no matter what.

It makes me feel really really annoyed when I see a hunter whom is not using any finesse. Not kiting, not trapping, not doing these things, but is still a huge threat. The level of play is so automated by that. I can't say people are bad for just relying on CDs to play, since that's how the game is now, so they're good at it. But I think they should flop harder, like players need to learn how to play not just be guided into this CD rotation that somehow lets them play. And this is all about that lower end of players.

If I'm queueing skirmish, and someone doesn't join my team and it's 3v3. I want to atleast have a slight chance to win 2v3. I want Blizzard to reduce impossibilities when it comes to that. I simply want it to feel good to try, but it's like so impossible, and then the game feels super rigged. That's what I hate.

-----

There's alot of positives to the current balance. There's many layers of complexity. For example when facing a counter, all these layers must be handled, I don't know how to put it but you need to win on more levels, which is interesting and fun and challenging.
Which is better than in the past. Counter comps felt way worse in the past somehow. Atleast when it was equal on skill levels. In the past if someone's counter comp was a bit lower in skill level they probably flopped anyways, but now,

The demand when facing a counter-comp is heavier, since more layers, more added responsibilities to win. Which puts the weight on the countered team to outperform on a more complex + more difficult level, while simultaneously lessening the skill required for the counter-comp. A good thing.

To repeat this sentiment:
In the past while facing a counter-comp they could more simply flop since there were less layers of complexity, but equally they could also dominate harder because of less layers of complexity.

The solution I hope is in line with what we have now, I hope Blizzard is aware of their games integrity on this level. I want to see players NOT play Classic because PVP is more fun there. I want players to think it's stupid to play Classic because Retail is so much better, on every level.

That's my real desire.

So I think a simple idea that 2v3 should feel less impossible is a good viewpoint.
As a finale to my wall-of-text that no one ever reads, and I don't really care if anyone does.

I just want a game where I don't avoid attacking 3 players at once in War Mode. I want a game where Random Battleground premades become extinct because we don't need eachother to dominate a Random Battleground anymore. I want a game where I don't calculate impossibilities when facing adversities that aren't in-line with the equalnumber vs. equalnumber paradigm.

I agree for the most part but I think the reason it's impossible to outplay people isn't because the skill floor is lower but because this game has been around so long and the vast majority of people taking time to be competitive in pvp are just all around much better players.

Even as low as 1400 I can't remember the last time I did solo shuffles where every player of every spec WASN'T using everything in their toolkit. It'd be obvious if they're MISusing them but they would still be trying. Back when I was a consistent 1800-1900 player in original Wrath you'd consistently face people who clearly hadn't the slightest on how to move their character let alone actually use half their toolkit.

[heinz0r]

I agree for the most part but I think the reason it's impossible to outplay people isn't because the skill floor is lower but because this game has been around so long and the vast majority of people taking time to be competitive in pvp are just all around much better players.

Even as low as 1400 I can't remember the last time I did solo shuffles where every player of every spec WASN'T using everything in their toolkit. It'd be obvious if they're MISusing them but they would still be trying. Back when I was a consistent 1800-1900 player in original Wrath you'd consistently face people who clearly hadn't the slightest on how to move their character let alone actually use half their toolkit.

Yeah the game is "ausgedaddlt". Everyone knows what works and what does not, even bad players have somewhat made up that gap. Bad player are still bad players, but they are a way higher obstacle now than they used to be, simply because of how the combat is designed now. SLOOOOOW ass build up on almost every class. I would not mind it that much if the classes would still feel good to play, but they do not. All of them feel like walking through a tar pit, especially when you know how the game felt like a bunch of expansions before.

I think the only spec that has seen some really good improvements has been arcane mage, which has almost always been truly sluggish, it feels decent now, but I cannot think of anything else that is a net positive over classic expansions right now. I have played the game since launch, not always hardcore, but seen all the expansions and at the very least spent 3 months in each, and played a couple of them heavily, but pvp has been going downhill throughout all of them. Blizzard simply never saw the potential in it like the players used to, they pretty much admitted to that a few years ago, and we could see it. Cata was the ease in towards the game becoming more and more of a slog in pvp. Higher hp, more cds, more homogenization, more healer focused gameplay. Not saying Cata was the downfall, but it started that trend towards everything being easier to do, and everyone getting their own little versions of "oh shit" buttons, which not every class used to have before. MoP and WoD continued that trend, while also going towards builder+spender mechanics, which pretty much laid the foundation for the mess we are in right now... the rest is history :/

[nvaelz]

You know the feeling you get when you make a mistake and you know there's something better you can do, WoW has alot of those moments, and what I really hated about DF is that those moments kinda become too many, and in less time frames, it becomes spewy and it's not faster, because each decision can be made in haste. It's just constantly spewy. You're never holding a gcd, you're always spewing gcds. There's speed in holding a gcd and pressing it in the correct timing, that empty window and leaving that window is speed.

TWW is much better than DF, atleast so far. For only the reason that the game feels more bursty, but also it might be a mistake on balancing at Blizzard's part, maybe they'll just nerf it down and make it all soft and stupid. And it's 50% of the gameplay that is good, the other 50% is still trash, it's like still playing a beta test.

It's like we left DF and they wanted to change up the game, but they wanted to use DF as a baseline, so the game feels exactly like DF but it's a bit different. In one way I'm excited for the future that they might be actually rebalancing the game to be more critical and sharp and exciting to learn and progress within, but on the other hand it might just be exactly like DF where it's just a constant aoe m+ spew with capped burst.

I don't think a player should be able to 1v10 players, I think that's a bit too much skill based gameplay then, if skill matters so much that for example a R1 player super elite gamer would be able to 1v10, 10 duelists for example, that would be wierd maybe, but that's the correct direction to make the game more about skill, that individual players can actually feel happy about being good, or improving, and it's not some generic rollercoaster where everything is about which healer you have or if your dps is lining you, instead of full team reliance, maybe the game can be a little bit more about individual SKILL.

The game is about individual skill, but you'll be hard pressed to enjoy your life if your teammates aren't good when team reliance is so high.
What I'm saying is that the game should be further developed.

The positives of making the game more about skill, above class/gear/counters/teammates is that individual players' identity is more revealed.

For example, in DF you'll see a retri pala and it's just a generic retri pala, idk who this retri pala is, it's just a retri pala, might aswell make the game anonymous because player identity dissappears when class powers and their ability to do damage or big things overtakes the skill of the class, aka making it too stupid and too easy to be dangerous in the game.

In Classic there's way more player identity, you'll notice other players more revealingly and how they are as players, atleast that's the way I see it. I see DF as the complete opposite with players just losing all their identity. Whatever...

TL;DR

I hope they will make the game even better, more about skill, more about critical damage, more about difficult vulnerable healing, less tankiness, and a better feeling in playing the game overall, it has to get rid of all the DF gunk that is still under it's toes, it's still got remnants of that disgustingly bad expansion, the talent tree will have to do I guess, but atleast they could properly manage their numbers on gcds, and not have the wet noodlie and all about generic CD rotation which literally reduces player identity to its class identity.

[melzas]

In Classic there's way more player identity, you'll notice other players more revealingly and how they are as players, atleast that's the way I see it. I see DF as the complete opposite with players just losing all their identity. Whatever..

I disagree. In classic you feel like it's more about player identity and "skill" because, first - you see mostly the same people everytime as player base is smaller and more things are "server only" and second, gear disparity plays a huge factor in classic pvp while it's pretty much irrelevant in retail. Now everyone in arena can have the best gear so as long as you can do basic rotation and use defensices you won't be a complete pushover like back in the classic days when people with pumped out gear would decimate entire battlegrounds.

[Cynical Asshole]

I hope they will make the game even better, more about skill, more about critical damage, more about difficult vulnerable healing, less tankiness, and a better feeling in playing the game overall, it has to get rid of all the DF gunk that is still under it's toes, it's still got remnants of that disgustingly bad expansion, the talent tree will have to do I guess, but atleast they could properly manage their numbers on gcds, and not have the wet noodlie and all about generic CD rotation which literally reduces player identity to its class identity.

WoW has an aging playerbase of 35+ year olds, and they are the veterans who have been playing from vanilla, because let's face it, no new and younger players are coming into the game in any interesting numbers. WoW is going mainly on the addicted veterans and their kids that they are introducing to the game. Random young people don't care about WoW. WoW is the Facebook of MMORPGs. In fact young people don't care about MMORPGs in general.

And do you know what 35-40 year olds really hate in a game? Complexity! Tons of mechanics, tons of buttons, tons of buffs and debuffs to watch, quick reflexes. These things are a deterrent for someone over the age of 30 or so. Not so much in PVE, but when it comes to PVP, where you need everything in the spellbook PLUS the active PVP talents, it becomes very overwhelming very fast, and no, you can't just pick mostly passive talents that aren't part of the meta build, as you're just gimping yourself. You can do that in PVE if you don't care about the numbers on the damage meter, but in PVP having a not-so-meta build usually means you're gonna get shit on.

And Blizzard know that, that's why they pruned a bunch of specs for TWW to make them more accessible. Granted, there is lots more work in that department. I mean enh shamans, unholy dks, frost mages and feral druids are in a dire need of being looked at button-wise.

So reducing the tankiness makes the game require quicker reflexes. And also making it more "skill based" implies adding more buttons and debuffs to watch for. This is not a good time to make the game more complex. Some people are even switching to Classic or simply quitting the game because they feel like they just can't keep up with how complicated the game has become.

[nvaelz]

After having played TWW for awhile I'll make a pros and cons list.

Pros
-Gameplay is intense
-Viable comps feel good
-Healers are less overpowered

Cons-
-Classplay feels super scripted because of CDs.
-Any non viable comps feel extremely bad to play
-Healers determine too much

...

The worst part is how powerful instant CDs are, like ascendance or black arrow, it's no surprise to me that 50% of games have an MM hunter in them, it's just mechanically so stupid to press 2 buttons black arrow and rapid fire and do so much, it's like the CDs are playing the game, it becomes REALLY stupid. And the counterplay to that level of simplicity is precognitive usage of multiple things.

And it's not only MM hunters, alot of classes are like this now, where it's just a BIG CD with some class fantasy surrounding it, it's so lame.

But about MM hunters, like when you can literally run into melee range and press your 25% dmg reduction wall and press your 2 buttons to play the game it becomes extremely generic, I've never seen a bad MM hunter in my entire TWW life, because this is the WoW we play now where BIG cds make u FEEL GOOD,

My point is this needs to get PRUNED out of the game and the game needs better balance in another direction, but the development on the game is all about giving classes these huge cds to replace what they were before in this new WoW 2.0 and that has some issues in the gameplay, it might be balanced fairly well in 3v3 or very specific environments, you won't see any double dps in 2s cuz it just doesnt work in the new structure of the game, it's like they thought what WoW was was bad so they had to replace it with something else, it's not always a good idea, there's so many flaws in TWW and I doubt they will come to terms with how to fix that soon.


----

Like I remember even bad comps could still be kinda good, you could kinda have fun with bad comps, but nowadays a bad comp is REALLY really painfully bad. That's a huge con for me. I hate when the game is scripted in this way, I'd rather get CC chained by RM than have to deal with these overpowered CDs everyone literally has.


----

I remember other classes being FOTM and it not even mattering, things mattering so much on the highest ratings sure, but everything before that was kinda open to wierd comps, now FOTM is so damn broken it's not even funny, it's not exciting to face overpowered hunters and ferals and hpalas etc like they need to make the game less stupid, make the game more about reactivity and skill and just give more skillful counterplays like PVP trinkets maybe that has powerful abilities that counterplay stupid CD usage.

Make the game more about critical thinking, about skill, about player skill, and less about stupid teletubbies big lego brick cosmetics shop class fantasy overpowered cds, literally the worst in a competitive game when bad players are dangerous to face, that's not how competitive games should be, WoW could be a better competitive game than it is now, if it was shown some respect in the regard, but Blizzard only cares about cosmetics, and selling cosmetics and feeding us the forced habit of hearing about cosmetics all the time.

Why does it matter then if the game has extreme level of fundamental problems, causing for example ferals/mm hunter sjust to dominate completely cuz of some powerful cds, it's just so scripted in classes that literally no one that plays anything else stands a chance because the classes are not about skill it's about balance and that's Blizzards doing in their fake attempts to create competitive balance, but they only care about cosmetics as I said.

It's insulting to understand how this game could be better but the company that cares for it doesn't really care.

[nvaelz]

1st week of pre-season2 patch,
Healers can actually die now,
DPS meta seems faster and more fun,
But all this might be getting nerfs by new ilvls or whatever who knows,

Gotta say I'm glad these bad disci priests can't just press rapture to carry them anymore, hopefully Blizzard keeps removing these autopower abilities that ruin the game.

[Grinning Serpent]

1st week of pre-season2 patch,
Healers can actually die now,
DPS meta seems faster and more fun,
But all this might be getting nerfs by new ilvls or whatever who knows,

Gotta say I'm glad these bad disci priests can't just press rapture to carry them anymore, hopefully Blizzard keeps removing these autopower abilities that ruin the game.

Arena was a mistake, IMO. Or, at least, designing and tuning the game around it was. Classes simply *must* have these hugely broken cooldown abilities to function when there's only 3 players per team, and any class lacking such things is essentially unplayable. Healer design has been problematic for ages due to this design - if a healer can be killed by 1 player, or can be quickly killed by 2 players, why the fuck would you ever take a healer into arenas?

So the whole fucking system revolves around pretty formulaic and bland use of cooldowns, like you mentioned in a previous post. With how messy it's become, it's a wonder people bother taking PvP seriously at all anymore.

(It also doesn't help that PvP and PvE still aren't separated, so Blizzard *also* has to find a use and place for all of these buttons and cooldowns added into the game to spice up M+ and raiding.)

[Soon-TM]

Arena was a mistake, IMO. Or, at least, designing and tuning the game around it was. Classes simply *must* have these hugely broken cooldown abilities to function when there's only 3 players per team and cooldowns added into the game to spice up.

And this leads to classes feeling less and less fluid to play (as they were e.g. during WoD) and more like playing cooldowns whack-a-mole in any kind of more or less serious content, whether it is PvE or PvP. Most classes feel so "spicy" these days that they are almost inedible.

[Grinning Serpent]

And this leads to classes feeling less and less fluid to play (as they were e.g. during WoD) and more like playing cooldowns whack-a-mole in any kind of more or less serious content, whether it is PvE or PvP. Most classes feel so "spicy" these days that they are almost inedible.

Yeah. It's just one more thing about classic that makes me like it more than retail. Like even as problematic as Cata (and soon Mists) is, it's still so much better than retail. I'm looking forward to returning to TBC - while arenas were introduced there and it began the process of problematic balancing and design, it still feels far more classic than other expansions did.

And the funny thing is, I would be totally down with them adding arenas to vanilla-classic - so long as they aren't a focus of balancing and they're just there for a bit of fun and not as a priority for PvP play. Arenas existing aren't the problem, it was arenas taking over class design and balancing that's the problem. They should have added RBGs along with arenas into TBC, and made the RBGs the focus of top-end PvP gameplay.

[tamitap]

1st week of pre-season2 patch,
Healers can actually die now,
DPS meta seems faster and more fun,
But all this might be getting nerfs by new ilvls or whatever who knows,

Gotta say I'm glad these bad disci priests can't just press rapture to carry them anymore, hopefully Blizzard keeps removing these autopower abilities that ruin the game.

yes indeed sir

- - - Updated - - -

You know the feeling you get when you make a mistake and you know there's something better you can do, WoW has alot of those moments, and what I really hated about DF is that those moments kinda become too many, and in less time frames, it becomes spewy and it's not faster, because each decision can be made in haste. It's just constantly spewy. You're never holding a gcd, you're always spewing gcds. There's speed in holding a gcd and pressing it in the correct timing, that empty window and leaving that window is speed.

TWW is much better than DF, atleast so far. For only the reason that the game feels more bursty, but also it might be a mistake on balancing at Blizzard's part, maybe they'll just nerf it down and make it all soft and stupid. And it's 50% of the gameplay that is good, the other 50% is still trash, it's like still playing a beta test.

It's like we left DF and they wanted to change up the game, but they wanted to use DF as a baseline, so the game feels exactly like DF but it's a bit different. In one way I'm excited for the future that they might be actually rebalancing the game to be more critical and sharp and exciting to learn and progress within, but on the other hand it might just be exactly like DF where it's just a constant aoe m+ spew with capped burst.

I don't think a player should be able to 1v10 players, I think that's a bit too much skill based gameplay then, if skill matters so much that for example a R1 player super elite gamer would be able to 1v10, 10 duelists for example, that would be wierd maybe, but that's the correct direction to make the game more about skill, that individual players can actually feel happy about being good, or improving, and it's not some generic rollercoaster where everything is about which healer you have or if your dps is lining you, instead of full team reliance, maybe the game can be a little bit more about individual SKILL.

The game is about individual skill, but you'll be hard pressed to enjoy your life if your teammates aren't good when team reliance is so high.
What I'm saying is that the game should be further developed.

The positives of making the game more about skill, above class/gear/counters/teammates is that individual players' identity is more revealed.

For example, in DF you'll see a retri pala and it's just a generic retri pala, idk who this retri pala is, it's just a retri pala, might aswell make the game anonymous because player identity dissappears when class powers and their ability to do damage or big things overtakes the skill of the class, aka making it too stupid and too easy to be dangerous in the game.

In Classic there's way more player identity, you'll notice other players more revealingly and how they are as players, atleast that's the way I see it. I see DF as the complete opposite with players just losing all their identity. Whatever...

TL;DR

I hope they will make the game even better, more about skill, more about critical damage, more about difficult vulnerable healing, less tankiness, and a better feeling in playing the game overall, it has to get rid of all the DF gunk that is still under it's toes, it's still got remnants of that disgustingly bad expansion, the talent tree will have to do I guess, but atleast they could properly manage their numbers on gcds, and not have the wet noodlie and all about generic CD rotation which literally reduces player identity to its class identity.

defitely agreed on you