The melee spec doesn't make sense.

[Bepples]

That applies to every class. If its strong, it's popular. More news at 11.

Most classes don't need to be 30% ahead to be popular.

[chrisisvacant]

The only time anyone played it in significant numbers is in late Shadowlands when they made it do >30% more damage than any other spec while also devolving the playstyle to two-button Wildfire Bomb proc fishing. Even then most Hunters avoided it and played BM/MM anyway.

Needless to say, if a spec needs to be >30% ahead of anything else just to see good representation (i.e. the representation BM gets on an average day) there are deeper problems that cannot be fixed with tuning. It shouldn't need to be explained that it's not healthy for the game to shoehorn in such an unpopular spec and then bribing everyone to play it with some of the most extreme overtuning the game has ever seen.

Survival spent much of the last season as the strongest Hunter spec in M+. It still remained the least played of the three; simply because it was only ahead by ~3-5% and not by the >30% it saw in Shadowlands.



Yes Survival gets a lot of cheerleaders online. The few people who like the spec are extremely fanatical about it while it also gets legions of people who don't play it at all but still marshal to defend it because they see it as the poor downtrodden underdog and they just like the fact that it's there. That means absolutely nothing when hardly anyone turns up to actually play it.

When I say Survival is consistently an extremely unpopular spec I'm not basing that on a rough count of for/against forum posts about it. I base it on real data about what people are playing, namely from warcraftlogs for raiding and raider.io for m+.

Just look to the M+ data right now. Consider that MM is in the dumps; its damage is awful, its playstyle is not broadly liked to say the least, its AoE is capped, and its only saving grace is a strong tier set that hardly anyone has yet. Despite all that, there are still more MM players in M+ than Survival. Last season it was the same deal. That's a whole lot of people who opt to play a much worse-off spec instead of playing SV.

The forum cheerleaders can talk up the spec all they want. There just aren't a lot of people who show up to play it and >90% of the time Hunters will play something else if they can get away with it.



It really is. There's no coherent identity whatsoever, and a good indicator of this is how SV Hunters talk about it. Ask 10 SV Hunters what the spec is about and you'll get 10 different answers. You'll have people talking about how it's the archetypical Rexxar beast-master (no qualms about the actual Beast Mastery spec, funnily enough) that fights alongside its pet, while at the same time others are talking about how it's two steps away from being Arms Warrior with traps and bombs and they should just give it Lone Wolf already.



What's so hard to understand? There used to be a 3rd ranged spec with a different approach, it was far more popular, yet that got removed to make room for possibly the most unpopular spec concept in the game. Survival spends season after season as the circus freak of class design whereas it used to be an extremely broadly played, enjoyed, and respected spec. They turned it into a joke.

This isn't a "win-win" situation. It's outrageously preferential treatment for a tiny clique of melee-obsessed players at the expense of everyone else in the Hunter playerbase.



If it needs to be >30% stronger than every other spec to see the kind of representation BM gets all the time... yes, it's an unpopular spec. Use your brain.

Erm, no, Survival has been meta on several raid tiers. Including and before Shadowlands.

[Bepples]

Erm, no, Survival has been meta on several raid tiers. Including and before Shadowlands.

There's a difference between being a strong spec and being a popular spec. Usually they are related, but it's not always the case.

As we see with melee SV: it is often a strong spec, but it's rarely a popular spec.

[chrisisvacant]

There's a difference between being a strong spec and being a popular spec. Usually they are related, but it's not always the case.

As we see with melee SV: it is often a strong spec, but it's rarely a popular spec.

So, you're challenging the concept that players gravitate toward meta specs over non meta specs? Given that it's pretty widely understood to be the case that meta specs do attract more players than non meta specs, I'd be curious to see any data you have that indicates to you that people still refused to play survival despite it being the meta spec.

[Makaloff]

Until balance changes make it meta and then it's the most popular. And?

even the only time it was meta (S3 of SL), the other speccs were still more popular, the specc legit is dead, atleast in pve content. cant say for pvp or non relevant content like open world but ever since legion the specc has been so underrepresented that at this point i have to wonder if its even worth keeping the way it is currently. a good fix could been a split in the tree so you can choose between ranged or meele, but sadly blizzard have been ignoring hunters since legion despite them "listening to the community". Its a shame really beacuse i would like to see the specc perform and to be enjoyed by both sides without taking from either of one but like i mentioned, blizzard refuses to listen and we dont have a hunter dev since years back so not much we can do about it sadly.

- - - Updated - - -

So, you're challenging the concept that players gravitate toward meta specs over non meta specs? Given that it's pretty widely understood to be the case that meta specs do attract more players than non meta specs, I'd be curious to see any data you have that indicates to you that people still refused to play survival despite it being the meta spec.

i mean its just to look at SL and compared the amount of keys done for every specc and same goes for raids, in DF the log difference is obscenly big, even in S3 SL MM and BM were more popular to play in keys than surv.

[Bepples]

So, you're challenging the concept that players gravitate toward meta specs over non meta specs?

No, I'm saying that there's more than the one factor. A strong and broadly-enjoyed spec will see more play than a strong and scarcely-enjoyed spec.

Given that it's pretty widely understood to be the case that meta specs do attract more players than non meta specs, I'd be curious to see any data you have that indicates to you that people still refused to play survival despite it being the meta spec.

Just curious: did you really before today go around assuming SV was always a widely played spec whenever it was strong?

Also did you know anything about warcraftlogs and raider.io?

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...d/leaderboards

There's some data for you. Last season SV was the strongest of the three specs but it was also the least played.

- - - Updated - - -

even the only time it was meta (S3 of SL), the other speccs were still more popular, the specc legit is dead

To be fair, SV was actually the most played of the three in S3.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...d/leaderboards

What's remarkable is how it's barely ahead of the others in representation, when numerically it was around >30% ahead in M+ AoE scenarios. It's also notable that BM and MM had roughly the same representation they saw in previous seasons, while SV was multiplied to a lot higher. This indicates a lot of people from other classes were rerolling to SV, while not so many Hunters were switching over from the other specs.

Going into Season 4, it saw a few nerfs. They weren't too big; the most significant was putting a square root cap on Wildfire Bomb because it was one of the only few remaining AoEs in the game that was totally uncapped (or at least without any restriction before 20 targets). It was still extremely overpowered, but not as overpowered as before. This was enough to make BM pull ahead of SV in representation in S4.

It shouldn't have to be said, but if a spec needs a 30% damage lead, a truly game-breaking number, to see as much play as the other specs, it's not a widely enjoyed spec.

[Makaloff]

No, I'm saying that there's more than the one factor. A strong and broadly-enjoyed spec will see more play than a strong and scarcely-enjoyed spec.



Just curious: did you really before today go around assuming SV was always a widely played spec whenever it was strong?

Also did you know anything about warcraftlogs and raider.io?

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...d/leaderboards

There's some data for you. Last season SV was the strongest of the three specs but it was also the least played.

- - - Updated - - -



To be fair, SV was actually the most played of the three in S3.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...d/leaderboards

What's remarkable is how it's barely ahead of the others in representation, when numerically it was around >30% ahead in M+ AoE scenarios. It's also notable that BM and MM had roughly the same representation they saw in previous seasons, while SV was multiplied to a lot higher. This indicates a lot of people from other classes were rerolling to SV, while not so many Hunters were switching over from the other specs.

Going into Season 4, it saw a few nerfs. They weren't too big; the most significant was putting a square root cap on Wildfire Bomb because it was one of the only few remaining AoEs in the game that was totally uncapped (or at least without any restriction before 20 targets). It was still extremely overpowered, but not as overpowered as before. This was enough to make BM pull ahead of SV in representation in S4.

It shouldn't have to be said, but if a spec needs a 30% damage lead, a truly game-breaking number, to see as much play as the other specs, it's not a widely enjoyed spec.

ah my bad, i stand corrected.

[JRODSLAM]

I love survival. I just wish theyd bring back traps(make multiple ones viable) and black arrow(replace ss?).

[Wildberry]

Love Survival since the rework. It's my favorite melee spec, and by large margins. What i don't understand is the bash over it. Don't like it? Don't play it. 2 other ranged specs for Hunter. Win-win.

This is such an odd line of thinking, God forbid players be slightly annoyed that a spec they played for years was destroyed and totally redesigned because Blizzard felt bored one day.

[Bepples]

This is such an odd line of thinking, God forbid players be slightly annoyed that a spec they played for years was destroyed and totally redesigned because Blizzard felt bored one day.

It's not that odd when you consider he's extremely selfish and entitled. Anyone would be if they got preferential treatment from Blizzard at the expense of thousands of other people.

[Askyl]

This is such an odd line of thinking, God forbid players be slightly annoyed that a spec they played for years was destroyed and totally redesigned because Blizzard felt bored one day.

Then, go play something else. If you want to be bitter and cry about it, that's up to you. Feels like waste of time though. The game changes, the classes and specs evolve. They _finally_ made a melee hunter spec which most people playing survival have asked about since WoW launch. But yeah, poor you.

[Lazerbrain]

There is nothing "wrong" with survival melee. My hunter alt has been Survival since legion, i'v enjoyed some patches more than others, and right now I can agree survival feels kinda clunky, but as the main fantasy of a spear hunter melee build, is a fantasy I need, and no other class could pull it of. So if they redesign it I would hope it stays melee.

[Jaggler]

The first mistake with Surv hunter was, that they took a spec and turned it into something else entirely.

But "undoing" that, would just repeating that mistake, in the sense that you take a spec that people like and destroy it. It's not a solution.

[hulkgor]

This is such an odd line of thinking, God forbid players be slightly annoyed that a spec they played for years was destroyed and totally redesigned because Blizzard felt bored one day.

Pretty sure Survival has been this way longer than any other of the other iterations of it lasted, so, trying to change it back would also annoy the players that played this version for years?

Or doesn't it work that way?

[Bwgmon]

Pretty sure Survival has been this way longer than any other of the other iterations of it lasted, so, trying to change it back would also annoy the players that played this version for years?

Or doesn't it work that way?

But they specifically wouldn't be annoyed by it, so that'd make it okay.

[Wildberry]

most people playing survival have asked about since WoW launch.

[Citation Needed]

The overall numbers certainly don't reflect that.

Pretty sure Survival has been this way longer than any other of the other iterations of it lasted, so, trying to change it back would also annoy the players that played this version for years?

Or doesn't it work that way?

Just hit them with the "The game changes and evolves xD" that they've been throwing out for years?

[Askyl]

[Citation Needed]
The overall numbers certainly don't reflect that.

"The overall numbers" don't literally care about it. You're trying to make it look like the world is in revolt because of it. It's not and no one really cares that much. And it's fun, sucks for you but great for the rest.

[Wildberry]

"The overall numbers" don't literally care about it. You're trying to make it look like the world is in revolt because of it. It's not and no one really cares that much. And it's fun, sucks for you but great for the rest.

When did I say that? Please, go back to the posts I've written and find me a post where I "make it look like the world is in revolt." I'm sorry you got called out on your nonsense claim that:

most people playing survival have asked about since WoW launch.

But such obvious and blatant projection is a bad look.

[Makaloff]

The first mistake with Surv hunter was, that they took a spec and turned it into something else entirely.

But "undoing" that, would just repeating that mistake, in the sense that you take a spec that people like and destroy it. It's not a solution.

true, best could be if blizzard made RSV a 4th specc or split the surv tree into 2 ways, so you lock in on either be ranged or meele and can only go down the choosen path. Blizzard could have handled it so much better than just straight up nuking a specc in favor for people who dont even main hunters. They dont even put any effort into MSV as current so atleast they could made it proper meele so it can contend with other meele instead of just being told to go ranged.

[FossilFree]

true, best could be if blizzard made RSV a 4th specc or split the surv tree into 2 ways, so you lock in on either be ranged or meele and can only go down the choosen path. Blizzard could have handled it so much better than just straight up nuking a specc in favor for people who dont even main hunters. They dont even put any effort into MSV as current so atleast they could made it proper meele so it can contend with other meele instead of just being told to go ranged.

Splitting the tree would be a really cool way to resolve the problem imo. Melee could get some actual melee abilities beyond raptor/mongoose and ranged could get an actual ranged weapon instead of some child's toy crossbow. Also, add a talent for melee to dual wield.

Then there is the other option of turning survival into a throwing weapon specialization, with strong troll headhunter vibes. That would be my dream solution, but do they have the guts?