Why don't they try to keep old raids relevant?

[Alroxas]

i dont understand how saying ''100% bs'' is in any way an adequate respons to what i said lol,its like if i asked whats your name and you tell me your favorite crayons to eat,would cata and mop raids be hard?yeah...ofc,classic is hard for most people kekw,also they wouldnt even need tuning that much as the mecanics are still up to par,they arent mc levels

Classic is hard? I don't think so, go look at clear times for various raids in Classic WoW, Classic BC, Classic WotLK, it's nothing compared to Vanilla, BC, or WotLK the first time around.

Additionally, let's look at what you said:

there are older raids a lot of people havent done that work just fine in the modern day of raiding,cataclysm raids,mop raids,personaly i missed out on throne of thunder,would love to do it

Emphasis added. Those raids won't work "just fine" as they are scaled up (without additional tuning passes) to the current content in terms of character level. As illustrated by the Molten Core LFR for the 10th Anniversary Event. There was ZERO tuning to that Vanilla WoW raid, the devs said as much. The only thing that changed was scaling the mobs up to the level cap (which at that time was level 100).

The wipe rate was incredibly high because even though the mechanics were simple (relative to the mechanics we have now in raids), which further impacted participation rates. Also probably why we haven't seen Molten Core LFR come back at all.

It's incredibly naïve to think that you could just take Throne of Thunder scale it up to level cap of DF with ZERO tuning passes. Heck, just look at the "older" dungeons that are now in rotation for M+. How many tuning passes were done on the older dungeons?

Honestly, if players crave the older raids, Blizzard already has you covered: "Just go play on the Classic servers."

[Daedius]

I don't think that's the intent of the OP. They wanted older raids (of the current expansion) to be an alternative catch-up mechanism to gear up. Their other points are that it would be limited to LFR difficulty and the gear drops would be non-upgradable.

So imagine being able to do LFR Vault of the Incarnates for ilv 402 gear (non-upgradable) as a catch-up for new alts. It's not for your mains and there's no "gear farming" because the drops are mostly irrelevant considering the current gear cap is ilv 447.

But even with those limits, it's still a bad idea. The thread has numerous reasons (i've outline some myself) on why it's bad.

ofc it's a bad idea generally speaking... people already struggle with current mechanics, imagine old as demonstrated with TW BT :V

[Genju]

i would turn old raids into additional mythic+ dungeons.
Artwork+models+animations+loot are already all done, which is the labor intensive work. It so much quality work thats being wasted.

A small team could easily change fights to 5 man content. And it would even be kinda new content because there will still be plenty of changes.
You try to keep the spirit of the raid/encounter, but do not have to if it doesnt work on 5 man. Just make a fun 5 man dungeon.

[Fistfighter]

Do we know if there's any GOOD reason for this?

Because the shareholders want NEW

I don't know how did you not realise this playing wow for so long, but every expansion, there has to be everything NEW

that's because the higher ups push the devs to make new things, because they believe when a new game/expansion releases, there has to be something NEW

That's why there isn't focus on keeping old raids, they are deadly afraid of people leaving, because they won't be getting NEW things, and getting bored of the same old.
(ironically they fail to realise that pushing a lot of NEW over and over does start to feel OLD after a while)

[deenman]

Classic is hard? I don't think so, go look at clear times for various raids in Classic WoW, Classic BC, Classic WotLK, it's nothing compared to Vanilla, BC, or WotLK the first time around.

Additionally, let's look at what you said:



Emphasis added. Those raids won't work "just fine" as they are scaled up (without additional tuning passes) to the current content in terms of character level. As illustrated by the Molten Core LFR for the 10th Anniversary Event. There was ZERO tuning to that Vanilla WoW raid, the devs said as much. The only thing that changed was scaling the mobs up to the level cap (which at that time was level 100).

The wipe rate was incredibly high because even though the mechanics were simple (relative to the mechanics we have now in raids), which further impacted participation rates. Also probably why we haven't seen Molten Core LFR come back at all.

It's incredibly naïve to think that you could just take Throne of Thunder scale it up to level cap of DF with ZERO tuning passes. Heck, just look at the "older" dungeons that are now in rotation for M+. How many tuning passes were done on the older dungeons?

Honestly, if players crave the older raids, Blizzard already has you covered: "Just go play on the Classic servers."

dude im talking about cata and mop raids,comparing those to mc is crazy,also yes vanila is hard for many,theres a reason classid hardcore exploded when ulduar came out

[Schwert]

It is much easier to undertune a raid for things like Timewalking than to have it as an actual challenge.

Also, I'll die on my hill of just having these old raids available through Timewalking, but actually make them worth doing through cosmetics - recoloured tier / mounts / pets - you can only obtain through the Timewalking version of the raid would be an insane amount of content for players.
And for a lot of people, it would be new content. Walking into a raid and pressing one button to kill everything is just stupid gameplay, and not engaging. At least having those instances have a real use for social gameplay - which LFR / Normal difficulties are - would be enough to warrant the time investment.

If I have 3+ years worth of group content with my friends to do, even if it's "older" content, that rotates around every few weeks? I'd be happy. Doing just one raid over and over again is insanely boring. I get variety in most other games on the market.

[ZazuuPriest]

anything pre cata is to dated to have the current playerbase bother with. Raids were literally trash until ICC

[AudibleEscalation]

No one wants to waste available raid nights playing badly tuned content from 10 years ago. It's hard enough to keep a viable roster recruited as it is. It would need to be tuned to LFR level so people can queue into it and faceroll everything - and at that point.. .why spend the dev resources?

[Twdft]

Maybe go the other way and put up tournament realms at old patchs. You can create chars and vendor buy full preraid gear. Raids and classes are exactly as they were back then so no need to tune anything.

As for rewards (IE reason to even run it other than fun/nostalgia) all transmogs carry over to live.

[Alroxas]

dude im talking about cata and mop raids,comparing those to mc is crazy,also yes vanila is hard for many,theres a reason classid hardcore exploded when ulduar came out

You've missed the point. WoW raids brought back through Classic WoW, Classic BC, Classic WotLK are NOT hard because part of the difficulty back then was lack of knowledge of the fight encounter.

These days, Cata and MoP raids would be a JOKE because all the information is there on how to do the fights. Those raids would be cleared in a fraction of the time it took the first time around.

Classic WoW Hardcore taps into a different mindset but even then, someone already has reached level cap of 60. And it sure as hell wasn't because they were doing raids in hardcore mode.

[deenman]

You've missed the point. WoW raids brought back through Classic WoW, Classic BC, Classic WotLK are NOT hard because part of the difficulty back then was lack of knowledge of the fight encounter.

These days, Cata and MoP raids would be a JOKE because all the information is there on how to do the fights. Those raids would be cleared in a fraction of the time it took the first time around.

Classic WoW Hardcore taps into a different mindset but even then, someone already has reached level cap of 60. And it sure as hell wasn't because they were doing raids in hardcore mode.

dude only the top 0.1% do that,even with vanila classic most people still strugle,and cata and mop raids are inifnintly harder

[Inoculate]

Course adds the question who is this for?

LFR heroes who want another LFR to do?
People who for whatever reason skipped the patch but still wanted to do the raid?
Someone making an alt and deciding "oh gee I'd rather do the season 1 raid?"

I for one would prefer if they'd turn old raids into five man fungeons that just gave transmog recolors from that raid tier. Move the pets to this level of 'difficulty' and sprinkle in some thematic toys.

Makes it more group activities, would allow you to tell the story of that raid better and just make for more content to keep you busy apart from dailies.

I know it would require resources but man i can dream.

I do agree though that making it catchup gear would be an even bigger waste of time than how I'd like to see it.

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anything pre cata is to dated to have the current playerbase bother with. Raids were literally trash until ICC

Ulduar is largely seen as one of the best raids ever. Silly not to mention the hardmodes it had.

[Alroxas]

dude only the top 0.1% do that,even with vanila classic most people still strugle,and cata and mop raids are inifnintly harder

Again so hyperbole.

First, older raids in WoW have less mechanics than current ones even Cata/MoP raids when compared to BFA/SL/DF raids. There was a post a few years ago saying how much more mechanics are there in present raids than older ones and how the trend is ever increasing with each new raid tier. But even with a bunch of extra mechanics, so have the tools used by players.

Which leads to the second point, there's so much MORE information/tools about older raids than there are about new raids. From videos to addons to written articles, it's easier to learn how to do the Safety Dance than it is to figure out what the tactics are for 10.2 Raid mechanics.


And that's pretty much why those older raids are "easier". The foreknowledge that players can get now versus back then. I'm not saying it trivializes the mechanics but it reduces downtime as players can the chance to better prepare.

For instance, imagine the surprise that players had the first time they went up against Viscidus without frost damage type. Compare that to the revisit by players on Classic WoW which had the foreknowledge about it and prepared accordingly. Now extend that out to all the older raids.

[ZazuuPriest]

I for one would prefer if they'd turn old raids into five man fungeons that just gave transmog recolors from that raid tier. Move the pets to this level of 'difficulty' and sprinkle in some thematic toys.

Makes it more group activities, would allow you to tell the story of that raid better and just make for more content to keep you busy apart from dailies.

I know it would require resources but man i can dream.

I do agree though that making it catchup gear would be an even bigger waste of time than how I'd like to see it.

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Ulduar is largely seen as one of the best raids ever. Silly not to mention the hardmodes it had.

silly to pretend that any of those hardmodes were mechanically challenging instead of convoluted DPS checks. By comparison heroic dungeon bosses in retail have more mechanics than any boss in Ulduar. Ulduar can be a good raid and be easy as shit, especially by todays standards

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The problem with Timewalking raids is that there is little incentive to do them. Arbitrary treadmill gear and a handful of pets/mounts is not a good incentive.

The way FFXIV incentivizes players to do old raids is to 1. by allowing you to level up by doing old raids (which is far and away more efficient than questing), and 2. for endgame players, you get mats you need to assemble a relic weapon and progress a current expansion questline from doing old content.

[Powerogue]

i would turn old raids into additional mythic+ dungeons.
Artwork+models+animations+loot are already all done, which is the labor intensive work. It so much quality work thats being wasted.

A small team could easily change fights to 5 man content. And it would even be kinda new content because there will still be plenty of changes.
You try to keep the spirit of the raid/encounter, but do not have to if it doesnt work on 5 man. Just make a fun 5 man dungeon.

Most of the raids are big enough that that'd require breaking them up into pieces, but given that most of them already are by LFR wings that's probably the best idea I've heard here.

- - - Updated - - -

The way FFXIV incentivizes players to do old raids is to 1. by allowing you to level up by doing old raids (which is far and away more efficient than questing), and 2. for endgame players, you get mats you need to assemble a relic weapon and progress a current expansion questline from doing old content.

Timewalking legendaries maybe? I feel like that'd require rebalancing the whole notion of timewalking being a weeklong event every so often.

[Alroxas]

The way FFXIV incentivizes players to do old raids is to 1. by allowing you to level up by doing old raids (which is far and away more efficient than questing), and 2. for endgame players, you get mats you need to assemble a relic weapon and progress a current expansion questline from doing old content.

I mean during TW weeks, TW dungeons are pretty decent to do for leveling AND with turblent timeways event, it'll be good to run them for gear as well (6 weeks of TW with heroic aberrus raid cache weekly quest).

TW Raids could probably benefit from a similar treatment BUT it needs to be balanced to the point where it doesn't feel compulsory to do by those who want to min/max their mains.

Ultimately that's the problem with WoW's playerbase, we're too keen on min/max which can easily turn "new systems" into "horrible grinds".