Innovation in MMOs, WoW and Ghostcrawler's perspective on it

[WowIsDead64]

Okay, let's humor you: what is "AI loot"? Because this is the first time I hear this term.

Well, truly RNG loot is great tool for developers, but it also has some problems. Player can be either too lucky or too unlucky. Both extremes are bad for developers. If player gets reward too soon, he loses interest. If he is unlucky - he starts being angry. Sometimes it's hard for developer to also time-gate RNG rewards in order to limit players' ability to grind them. So, player can simply "beat" RNG via making many attempts. The best solution in this case - to make loot pseudo-random. It's AI, that just gives rewards to player at certain predefined rate, no matter what, while pretending, that loot is random. For example clear sign of such system - is player being more "lucky", when he is undergeared.

In theory such system should be good for players. But sometimes things can get broken. For example AI can decide, that I need item, that I actually don't need. For example AI can assume, that I need full set of cypher gear and constantly give me belt, I still miss. But I don't need it, because I already have legendary one.

[InfiniteCharger]

The problem in this kind of discussion is that many of the terms used as part of it have multiple meanings and often have changed over time. Just take the term "MMO", where for the most part any kind of game that can have large numbers of players on line at the same time is an MMO. And therefore, PUBG, Fortnite, Battlefield 2142 and so forth are also MMOs, along with many other games that have come and gone over the years. At its core, the issue is once you have all these multiple players online in a game, what are they doing together? And this is where the next word comes into play that also has many different meanings and definitions, which is social. And this one is what most people have the most problems with because there is no single meaning or standard definition of what it means. On one hand, social can simply be the ability to chat with other players while playing the game and about whatever topics you want to discuss. But on the other hand social can also mean reaching out to other players via in game communication channels to coordinate in game activities aka trade chat from years gone by.

For the sake of this particular discussion I am going to define social strictly as any kind of player interaction in game that does not revolve around actually playing the game. So if you are discussing current events, sports or movies, that is social. Whereas using the tools of the game to coordinate activities within the game with other players I will call gameplay, because at the end of the day, when you have an MMO hosting many players online, what brings them together is the game play. And the type of MMO they are playing is going to define what those players do together as part of the game play. So generally if it is Battlefield 2142 or Fortnite, it is going to be some kind of FPS team played game play or battle royale game play. All of which is straight forward and easy to understand. But the main difference between these genres of MMOs like Fortnite and Battlefield is that they are designed around matches of limited length and in a non persistent world. League of legends also falls into that same category even though it isn't particularly massively multiplayer

The real problem comes when you get into the genre of MMO RPGs, which by definition are the most open ended types of games due to being set in a 24x7 persistent world with large numbers of players. And in the early days of MMOs such games were considered to be the holy grail of creating a living and breathing virtual world with economies, weather patterns, sophisticated AI, professions, guilds, large scale combat and so forth. Unfortunately, what happened is that the most popular examples of MMORPGs tended to follow the DnD model of fantasy game play and those games had a tremendous impact on later games. And this includes WOW, which although being based on an existing RTS franchise, still adopted man DnD rule sets for its game play. Which means groups of players coming together to accomplish goals in the game world as the core game play. Whether you use chat or use dungeon finder or some other automated match making system, it is still part of game play. The biggest problem with these games is that instead of taking advantage of the open ended opportunity provided by the genre, they often stayed within very narrowly defined game play parameters. While a lot of people did find those things enjoyable at the time, the reality is they weren't really pushing the boundaries of what was possible in a fully immersive online persistent virtual world. And most of the discussion around how to revitalize the MMORPG genre seems to be too fixed on addressing the limited scope of past games versus truly trying to innovate and bring new features to the table.

[Z3ROR]

I think it's a good thing to focus on better multiplayer, but to me that means communication among players needs to improve as some players are real dicks to play with.
Communication should not be a barrier to multiplayer gameplay. Players should not be able to insult each other, create awkward situations or exclude someone or something like that. If there are tools to let the healer know to move to spot A or ranged DPS to spot B or certain emotes that indicate that the Tank has to wait a bit or that it is time to heal first or something, then it is fine. Without using party chat that is. I think play experiences would socially improve if we don't have a party/raid chat in LFD/LFR.

[Ielenia]

Well, truly RNG loot is great tool for developers, but it also has some problems. Player can be either too lucky or too unlucky. Both extremes are bad for developers. If player gets reward too soon, he loses interest. If he is unlucky - he starts being angry. Sometimes it's hard for developer to also time-gate RNG rewards in order to limit players' ability to grind them. So, player can simply "beat" RNG via making many attempts.

We're had people getting the evoker legendary right at the very next week after the drop was enabled after the Race to World First was over.

The best solution in this case - to make loot pseudo-random. It's AI, that just gives rewards to player at certain predefined rate, no matter what, while pretending, that loot is random.

It's called "bad luck protection" and Blizzard has always made it clear to us when they are implementing those.

For example clear sign of such system - is player being more "lucky", when he is undergeared.

No, that is not an example. That is just the fact you have more gear slots to replace. You don't seem to know how RNG works here.

In theory such system should be good for players. But sometimes things can get broken. For example AI can decide, that I need item, that I actually don't need.

Which has never happened.

For example AI can assume, that I need full set of cypher gear and constantly give me belt, I still miss.

That is not how it works. Random is random. Bad luck is bad luck.

[WowIsDead64]

...

Exactly. Any online game has massive amount of players today. And there is only one difference between MMO and not MMO - can they interact outside of small groups? I.e. does game have open world or just some kind of lobby to form groups for small group multiplayer content?

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It's called "bad luck protection" and Blizzard has always made it clear to us when they are implementing those.

No, bad luck protection is dumb feature, not smart one. It doesn't decide, WHAT reward you should get - only increases chance to get it, if you're unlucky. It doesn't act like "So, you're purposely grinding item X? No no for you. We've decided, that you're unlucky this time and will grind it for 1k tries before getting it".

[Ielenia]

No, bad luck protection is dumb feature, not smart one. It doesn't decide, WHAT reward you should get - only increases chance to get it, if you're unlucky. It doesn't act like "So, you're purposely grinding item X? No no for you. We've decided, that you're unlucky this time and will grind it for 1k tries before getting it".

That feature does not exist in real life. Only in your head. Again, just because you're unlucky it doesn't mean Blizzard is out to get you.

[Orange Joe]

The rotation was simple but i disliked it bad as a vanilla player. The fun part is it forced you to engage with people. Now i don't have as much time for that and game isn't new to me anymore, but back then it was amazing. It created memories that lasted more then a decade. And in many ways the leveling was much more involved. My retail friends dont understand why i always take my time leveling and don't rush it, but its because vanilla wired me to think leveling is meant to be fun.

How is adding 30+ minutes to any group quest to spam a channel "LF#M good to go" fun? repeat for dungeons which can sometimes take 60+ minutes to try and form. Hell I spent 2 days trying to get a group for uldaman... sooo much fun....... btw never finished it as people always had to leave before we were done.

[WowIsDead64]

That feature does not exist in real life. Only in your head. Again, just because you're unlucky it doesn't mean Blizzard is out to get you.

I had no time to explain, but bad luck protection is purely about drop rate formula modification. Something like NewDR = DR / M + K * N, where M - is coefficient to compensate average amount of attempts change, K - drop rate increase per failed attempt, N - amount of failed attempts. There is nothing smart in it.

Of course they don't hate me personally. Because daily/WQ rewards are global. Only very rare rewards, like chest/rare drops are personal for me. So they hate all players at the same time.

[NineSpine]

How is adding 30+ minutes to any group quest to spam a channel "LF#M good to go" fun? repeat for dungeons which can sometimes take 60+ minutes to try and form. Hell I spent 2 days trying to get a group for uldaman... sooo much fun....... btw never finished it as people always had to leave before we were done.

You should be playing the game while putting a group together, not standing in one place yelling the same thing over again. There is nothing about putting a group together that requires you to drop everything else and look at a wall while doing it.

[Triceron]

That feature does not exist in real life.

Actually, it does.

There's multiple systems in play that allow for choice instead of pure RNG. The best of them was probably badges and tokens, which is currency that allows you to pick your gear. The Tier Set Token is probably the best way to combat pure RNG, since you can choose what to use the Token on and duplicates can go towards itemizing other specs, or even trade it to someone in the raid. But not sure if this system exists the same way today.

I always feel like the game should have a more defined 'Crafting/Resource' system that applies universally across gear. Maybe not as focused as Titanforging was, but something that allows you to take your shitty 4-times terrible drops and somehow 'trade up' so at least your efforts are still progressive. Kinda like Runes in Diablo 2, where even if you get a shitty rune you can hold on to it with the hopes of getting enough to combine into a useful one.

[NineSpine]

Actually, it does.

There's multiple systems in play that allow for choice instead of pure RNG. The best of them was probably badges and tokens, which is currency that allows you to pick your gear. The Tier Set Token is probably the best way to combat pure RNG, since you can choose what to use the Token on and duplicates can go towards itemizing other specs, or even trade it to someone in the raid. But not sure if this system exists the same way today.

I always feel like the game should have a more defined 'Crafting/Resource' system that applies universally across gear. Maybe not as focused as Titanforging was, but something that allows you to take your shitty 4-times terrible drops and somehow 'trade up' so at least your efforts are still progressive. Kinda like Runes in Diablo 2, where even if you get a shitty rune you can hold on to it with the hopes of getting enough to combine into a useful one.

There are two reasons why targeted systems feel worse overall than drop systems:

1. It feels exciting to take a dead dragon's sword. It does not feel exciting to take a dead dragon's sword coupon.

2. WoW's gear is already incredibly bland and boring. Targeted gearing feels better when there are a lot of options and customization.

[Le Conceptuel]

Blaming a singular dev for the decline of WoW and its community is just asinine. WoW's decline could be attributed to a lot of things. The communities relationship with the devs soured so much over the years due to the playerbase becoming more and more lazy, anti social. It's so easy for players to blame devs for the current state of the game and not take responsibility but the fact remains that the community we have now has always been the problem.

I think it's a little silly to blame the playerbase when it's the developers chocking their game full of microtransactions, alienating the playerbase through poor decision-making and oversimplification of the game, and burning their own public opinion every time it starts to recover. I honestly don't get why some people are so intent to come to the defense of large corporations as if they're being unfairly bullied for delivering a substandard product.

That said, you're not wrong that some players are contributing to the problem. The game, ideally, should be a principally social experience. Blizzard has done their fair share to disincentivize socialization through the various "finders", excessive streamlining, and the availability of services to everyone (e.g. no more finding mages for portals), but players have been too complacent with that. Of all of Blizzard's bad decisions, the transformation of the game into a glorified single-player experience where other players are just background noise is the one I've seen people most inclined to defend.

[Triceron]

There are two reasons why targeted systems feel worse overall than drop systems:

1. It feels exciting to take a dead dragon's sword. It does not feel exciting to take a dead dragon's sword coupon.

2. WoW's gear is already incredibly bland and boring. Targeted gearing feels better when there are a lot of options and customization.

It doesn't have to be a complete replacement of the system, only a means of 'bad luck protection' in situations where someone might feel there is no alternative than 'the dead Dragon's sword'.

Of course there are going to be things like Final Boss weapons that are super special to get, and I'm not suggesting removing all RNG at all.


Also I think crafting would be a better way to offer alternatives to the drops, which would still be available. Right now, profession crafting just sucks, and you can't do anything with repeat drops. I think there should be a system that allows for non-profession crafting that makes use of Raid/Dungeon drops in some way, like a vendor who will take it as currency to 'trade up'. Something like a bartering system where you can toss out 4 of your Epic Raid drops and get something that lets you upgrade your gear; either a vendor token or some sort of enhancement that you can apply to gear.

[Orange Joe]

You should be playing the game while putting a group together, not standing in one place yelling the same thing over again. There is nothing about putting a group together that requires you to drop everything else and look at a wall while doing it.

seem to normally get them at the end of a zone. Sure I guess I can head to another zone but then you waste just as much time traveling back and forth.

[NineSpine]

seem to normally get them at the end of a zone. Sure I guess I can head to another zone but then you waste just as much time traveling back and forth.

You said 30+ minutes. That's not the normal travel time between zones.

[Orange Joe]

You said 30+ minutes. That's not the normal travel time between zones.

Don't know about you not everyone can get a mount at 40.

[NineSpine]

It doesn't have to be a complete replacement of the system, only a means of 'bad luck protection' in situations where someone might feel there is no alternative than 'the dead Dragon's sword'.

Of course there are going to be things like Final Boss weapons that are super special to get, and I'm not suggesting removing all RNG at all.


Also I think crafting would be a better way to offer alternatives to the drops, which would still be available. Right now, profession crafting just sucks, and you can't do anything with repeat drops. I think there should be a system that allows for non-profession crafting that makes use of Raid/Dungeon drops in some way, like a vendor who will take it as currency to 'trade up'. Something like a bartering system where you can toss out 4 of your Epic Raid drops and get something that lets you upgrade your gear; either a vendor token or some sort of enhancement that you can apply to gear.

I think these are ultimately overengineered solutions. It's the absurd gear inflation and stratification that causes this problem. We should get rid of those problems and get back to fundamentals for gear acquisition.

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Don't know about you not everyone can get a mount at 40.

It's not 30 minutes to travel from almost anywhere in the world to anywhere else, let alone the low level zones that tend to be closer together, and let alone when the hearthstone exists. I'm sure there is some freak, fringe circumstance you are talking about, but this is wildly dishonest and not in line with the normal way the game is played.

[Orange Joe]

I think these are ultimately overengineered solutions. It's the absurd gear inflation and stratification that causes this problem. We should get rid of those problems and get back to fundamentals for gear acquisition.

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It's not 30 minutes to travel from almost anywhere in the world to anywhere else, let alone the low level zones that tend to be closer together, and let alone when the hearthstone exists. I'm sure there is some freak, fringe circumstance you are talking about, but this is wildly dishonest and not in line with the normal way the game is played.

low lvl zones? You mean the first 15-20 lvls? yeah.... once you hit 30+ they get a bit further apart. Lots of going back and forth be because some quests are for lvl 35 and some are for 40+

as for not the normal way?

https://www.warcrafttavern.com/wow-c...tools/leveling

There you go. That is how I lvled to about 52 so far.

[Kathranis]

Devs are stupid. We tell them, that we're ready to pay SUB FEE for single player game, but they don't listen. Solo MMO - is truly innovative thing. If such game would be released - it would kill all MMOs instantly, because only 1-10% of MMOs' playerbases actually need MMOs. All other players has to play such games, because they have no options.

There's definitely a market for a game that's effectively single player but has community features and shared world spaces. In fact, games like Genshin Impact and the Souslike genre writ large are already broadly falling into that design space.

I think ad-hoc communal world content that doesn't require dedicated grouping and coordination is an area they really need to iterate on and expand. The soup event really encapsulates the idea of "playing solo together" as each player is given their own task that isn't dependant upon other players but it still fosters a sense of everyone working together.

Timeless Isle still remains the best implementations of this sort of content, where you have a large zone that is really designed to keep players in the same space and funneling them from one goal to the next. World quests and world bosses as implemented have still not quite reached that level again. Dragonflight is the closest they've come to recreating that on a larger scale, probably.

[Triceron]

I think these are ultimately overengineered solutions. It's the absurd gear inflation and stratification that causes this problem. We should get rid of those problems and get back to fundamentals for gear acquisition.

Oh that I completely agree with. What I'm suggesting is more to address the symptoms of bad RNG, not offering a solution to the overall progression system