What is something you wish you could tell your raidleaders?

[Revamp Man]

I want to add, absolutely, but it needs to be constructive. But does it have to be public?

At first no but if it doesn't change yes

[exochaft]

A lot of people are really weird when it comes to any form of perceived authority and/or group interactions. Has little to do with the game really.

I think this point isn't brought up enough. I lost track of how many times I've seen raiders have a sort of two-faced attitude: publicly they seem normal and compliant, privately they slander or view the leadership as some overbearing taskmaster whenever leadership asks anything of them. It's akin to where there's that one raider who always thinks the leadership is out to get them, and no matter what you do that perception doesn't change. Or the raider who you heavily gear up first in progression complaining that the leadership is biased against them because they don't get every item they want later in progression when it's a larger benefit to the raid to give it to someone else. The big common feature is that these individuals often do not talk with the leadership at all.

If I had to point to what the issue is, there's a lot of people that can't handle any sort of criticism or critique, whether it's good or bad. Furthermore, a lot of people don't want to admit they may be the problem, so you point to the leadership for all your woes. I'm sure everyone's experienced a member of their raid screwing up majorly, then blame everyone except themselves. Even if it's not malicious, sometimes people just get frustrated and the easiest vent target are the people in charge of the raid.

Anyways, I always made my opinions and views known with leadership, although quite often I ended up leadership in my guilds anyways. If there was something I wish other raiders would do that they often don't tell their raid leadership, it would be that more often than not the world first guild strats are NOT appropriate for for your raid; heck, the world first guilds will even tell you that their strats are specifically tailored to their individual raiders strengths/weaknesses/comps, and that does not always translate well to others. Now, having a viable alternative strat lined up goes a long way into convincing leadership to try something different (or be willing to spend time to discuss alternatives), but what I've seen roadblock and frustrate guilds during progression is trying to apply a boss strat that will not work for them.

[LanToaster]

It's pretty simple isn't it? If you're new in a raidguild because all the others keep falling apart because of the same bad choices...
It's never a good look for a new member to start telling the officers what might be wrong with how they're leading the guild.
Frankly, even in the guilds I was a core member of I never felt quite right of bringing across this point, because as stated I'm just one member of the guild and who knows how other members feel about the raidschedule (see your point #2). It's hard to assess, beyond watching raid-attendance taking a dive after this 10-14 week period over and over again...

Let's not play innocent here. The chances of a single raidmember being able to make a raidgroup fall apart are close to zero, unless they'd intentionally put in tremendous effort towards that goal. Neither were any indications given as to why I'd be causing it to happen: Would someone with the consideration not to raise certain points that annoy them to the raidleadership really be the kind of person who seeks to make a raidgroup disband?

Generally speaking:
It happens more Often than you would think. Especially if the Symptoms are the ones you Outline.
Generally one would assume people play for Fun, and if you raid in a Guild, the premise should be "Having Fun Together", now if someones there who clearly doesnt want to be there, he can actually bring the mood down, and ruin the fun of others.
I dont mean it Intentional, its just the Vibe, a random innocenct Comment and so on.

Its Actually good Advice you´ve been given, if you lost several RaidGroups due to: "People not Showing up anymore" after you lost your fun/motivation yet still diligently forcing yourself to be there, it might be wise to reflect about that.

Sometimes if you are just stuck progressing in the last few bosses it just feels easier to extend. I wish that raids had at least TWO teleport points (though hey, I'm happy they've normalized having one before the end of the fight).

In that Case I Usually played the System a bit.

For one, if we could manage, I would take an Alt up to the Boss we struggle and save the ID there and Extend it every week to start there for a while. And if DPS was tight I would Extend the ID myself, and remove the Extension after the Raid was Zoned in.
Or I would just Save my ID and skip out on Loot on Prior bosses.

Let's be honest and call it what it was: a badly hidden accusation, only a hair removed from an ad hominem because they have a slightly different opinion on how often a raidgroup should raid.

A Raidgroup should raid as Often as it wants. If a Raidgroup wants to Raid 6 Hours a day, 7 Days a week, they are allowed to do that.
Its your own damn Responsibility to find/look for a Raidgroup that fits your Schedule. Dont join a group that Expects more days of Raidattendance that you want to give.
Dont join a Raidgroup that wants to Raid the Entire Season, if you only want to play for half of it.

And Especially: Dont annoy your Raidgroup with forced attendance when you clearly dont want to be there.
I dont think any Raidlead would like you in the Group if you dont want to be there.

[Thirtyrock]

I appreciate the rest of your comments, and thank you for your feedback, but I want to reply to this particular point: I believe you might be suffering from bias from having been on this site too long.

I literally posted this thread to like 5 different mainstream boards and the only site on which the replies were on what I would call a "toxic level" was on this mmo-c forum...

Oh, I have no arguments that there's toxicity on MMO-C. It just isn't coming from Relapses.

- - - Updated - - -

It's pretty simple isn't it? If you're new in a raidguild because all the others keep falling apart because of the same bad choices...
It's never a good look for a new member to start telling the officers what might be wrong with how they're leading the guild.
Frankly, even in the guilds I was a core member of I never felt quite right of bringing across this point, because as stated I'm just one member of the guild and who knows how other members feel about the raidschedule (see your point #2). It's hard to assess, beyond watching raid-attendance taking a dive after this 10-14 week period over and over again...




Nah, this is gaslighting.

So, here's the thing. There are a lot of raids that start up and don't last very long, because the leaders didn't know what they're getting into as far as leading goes. I would just avoid new raid guilds, unless you know the members.

On the other hand, no one is gaslighting you by saying you might be part of the issue. You are definitely A common denominator in these guilds. You were present in all the ones you have talked about. Does that mean you ARE the or even A reason the guilds didn't work out, no, but it's suggestive that you might need to do some introspection.

When you say things like "even in the guilds I was a core..I never felt quite right of bringing across..." you're saying you never tried to help with this stuff. I'm only 1 raid member out of 25 or so. That doesn't mean my opinion doesn't matter since there are 24 other people. I'm here to have fun for me, just like my guildmates are here to have fun for themselves. We have to be really clear about what we want and what the group's goals are, else there gets to be bitterness and infighting because people aren't communicating.

Here's a recent example from my guild. We're progressing in Mythic and were 2/3 a few weeks ago. We spent WAY too long getting a rekill on Rasz, and then very quickly got our rekill on Amalg. We'd had people sitting during the Rasz kill, since we have a full roster with alternates, and then had planned to rotate them back in on Amalg, But we killed Amalg before the planned rotation time. As a result, we had a few people who missed both kills that day. When we're only getting 2 or 3 Mythic bosses per week, that's a big deal. Those who sat missed 100% of our kills that week.

They raised the concern, "hey, it felt bad stepping out for boss 1, watching y'all get a kill, and then not getting a shot at boss 2". They were pretty upset about it. Our raid leader very publicly addressed his reasoning, how he operates, the problems with swapping out after every kill (what if we one shot the first boss, should we swap immediately) the benefits of swapping out after every kill, etc.

In the end, we all understood how the decisions were going to be made and we all had input into what we thought about that. If the players who were upset by this hadn't raised the issue, and then had the bad luck to have this happen to them again, they might get bitter and angry because they feel left out, like they're not getting progress. By airing the issue, they can decide if they like how we're doing things and make an informed decision on whether this group works for them. They won't sit there being angry until one day they either explode or they just leave.

If you're not raising reasonable issues, then you're doing yourself and the group a disservice. I agree that you probably should establish yourself for a while in the guild before offering suggestions/feedback, but even when you're new, you can ask for clarity "Hey, I noticed this happened last night, is that normal? Does it ever cause problems? How do you deal with those problems?"

Before I joined this group, which I've been in for about a year at this point, I asked a lot of very pointed questions. "If I only have time to raid-log, for an extended period, and don't have as high an ilvl as people running M+, will that be an issue?" "Do we take any breaks between tiers, or do we continue right up to the next tier?" "How do you decide who sits or doesn't sit" "When can people change mains, if they don't want to stay on their class" "I prefer tanking over dpsing, what are the odds I'll get a main tank position?"

If I couldn't live with any of the answers, I wouldn't have joined this group. Some of the answers aren't what I would have preferred, but by asking them up front, I didn't join the group with misaligned expectations, inevitably leading to frustration. Finding a group that works for YOU and YOUR goals and where you fit in with the GROUP and the GROUP's goals, takes time and effort. If it doesn't work, it's most likely on both sides. And, in my experience, it's most often a misalignment in goals. "I want to quit every tier after AOTC but this guild raids right up to patch day" - If you join that guild, knowing that the goals don't align with yours, you started off wrong. Find a guild that aligns with your goals.